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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anonymous Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 27, 2019, 04:21:10 PM

Title: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 27, 2019, 04:21:10 PM
My SSPX chapel recently began the occasional practice of inviting the faithful to join the priest in reciting the liturgical office of Compline.

At first, I was excited about the opportunity, so I went the first time I was invited.

I guess I thought there must be some visiting priests or seminarians or something, but didn't give it much thought.

But when we got there, we realized there was nobody in the sanctuary.

The priest then took a seat in the pews, and alternated responses with the faithful (half of whom were women) in making the responses.

I know the faithful are perfectly able to pray the Divine Office, and since the priest was in the pews, not the sanctuary, I do not think this would be considered a public public liturgical action (?), but it really caught me off guard to hear women making the responses, and now I am not sure I want to participate at future opportunities.

I do not want to speculate on the priest's motives, which are presumed to be good and straightforward (i.e., He may just have thought, why not invite the faithful?), but with all this movement towards Rome, changing of rubrics for the faithful in many places, debates about women singing in choir or not, and whether active participation is good or modernist, I could not help wondering whether this new practice (i.e., I am not aware of this priest ever having done this prior to a month ago, and he has been here for a few years), I just wondered if anyone knowledgeable on the rules (if there are any rules) could opine whether there is anything untraditional about this?

Is it just myself who is uneasy about making the responses with women in the Church from the pews (not sanctuary)?
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 27, 2019, 04:27:45 PM
I know before Vatican II, the faithful used to often attend Vespers on Sunday afternoon, but that was hearing the clergy say the Office in the sanctuary, not the priest and faithful participating/responding in the pews.
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 27, 2019, 04:43:35 PM
More or less goes hand-in-hand with the SSPX promotion of the Dialogue Mass: Active/lay participation is invading Tradition.
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 27, 2019, 04:45:40 PM
More or less goes hand-in-hand with the SSPX promotion of the Dialogue Mass: Active/lay participation is invading Tradition.
That's the liturgical movement.  The old books speak of "going to HEAR Mass," but since the liturgical movement, it is all about "going to PARTICIPATE in Mass."
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 27, 2019, 05:00:47 PM
Well where are the men to participate? It is a problem emblematic of our modern world that women will participate in the things like this rather than men. The idea that women are "more pious", while true in certain respects, if the men are not there to respond then I guess the women have to respond. 

Don't see an issue where there is none. In fact, I would say a bigger problem is when people see no value in the Divine Office but would rather see other devotions instead of the public recitation of the Office. 
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 27, 2019, 05:02:25 PM
Correction: reading hastily I thought there were only women who responded. I am not sure I see a problem with the laity responding even if there were women. It is not a public liturgical act (although for the priest it fulfills his obligation). 
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Nadir on January 27, 2019, 09:59:58 PM
The loss of an adequate teaching authority has made folk overanxious and scrupulous.

I see nothing wrong and women are not excluded from praying the Divine Office. It would be a wise move to encourage such liturgical prayer.

The Divine Praises will greatly enrich your spiritual life as it has mine.
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: poche on January 28, 2019, 12:04:58 AM
My SSPX chapel recently began the occasional practice of inviting the faithful to join the priest in reciting the liturgical office of Compline.

At first, I was excited about the opportunity, so I went the first time I was invited.

I guess I thought there must be some visiting priests or seminarians or something, but didn't give it much thought.

But when we got there, we realized there was nobody in the sanctuary.

The priest then took a seat in the pews, and alternated responses with the faithful (half of whom were women) in making the responses.

I know the faithful are perfectly able to pray the Divine Office, and since the priest was in the pews, not the sanctuary, I do not think this would be considered a public public liturgical action (?), but it really caught me off guard to hear women making the responses, and now I am not sure I want to participate at future opportunities.

I do not want to speculate on the priest's motives, which are presumed to be good and straightforward (i.e., He may just have thought, why not invite the faithful?), but with all this movement towards Rome, changing of rubrics for the faithful in many places, debates about women singing in choir or not, and whether active participation is good or modernist, I could not help wondering whether this new practice (i.e., I am not aware of this priest ever having done this prior to a month ago, and he has been here for a few years), I just wondered if anyone knowledgeable on the rules (if there are any rules) could opine whether there is anything untraditional about this?

Is it just myself who is uneasy about making the responses with women in the Church from the pews (not sanctuary)?
What version of the Divine Office did he use?
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Ladislaus on January 28, 2019, 08:58:00 AM
Correction: reading hastily I thought there were only women who responded. I am not sure I see a problem with the laity responding even if there were women. It is not a public liturgical act (although for the priest it fulfills his obligation).

Yes and no.  There's certainly no harm in women responding.  Now, if women were the ONLY ones responding, I think there's as much an issue there as if you had women only saying the responses during Mass (though some innovators even allowed that before Vatican II provided they were not in the Sanctuary).  You are actually mistaken in that the priest's recitation of the Divine Office IS considered a public liturgical act, and not merely a private prayer.

I personally would roll back to the earlier practice of the Church where one had to be a cleric in order for the act to be considered a public liturgical act.  It's laxity in this regard that led ultimately to the introduction of female lectors and altar girls.
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 09:57:26 AM
Yes and no.  There's certainly no harm in women responding.  Now, if women were the ONLY ones responding, I think there's as much an issue there as if you had women only saying the responses during Mass (though some innovators even allowed that before Vatican II provided they were not in the Sanctuary).  You are actually mistaken in that the priest's recitation of the Divine Office IS considered a public liturgical act, and not merely a private prayer.

I personally would roll back to the earlier practice of the Church where one had to be a cleric in order for the act to be considered a public liturgical act.  It's laxity in this regard that led ultimately to the introduction of female lectors and altar girls.
So do you think there is anything weird or unorthodox about the way this is being done?
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Ladislaus on January 28, 2019, 10:16:31 AM
So do you think there is anything weird or unorthodox about the way this is being done?

If there is at least one man singing the responses, then it's within the standards of the Church just prior to Vatican II ... since, for instance, lay males have been permitted to say the responses during Mass (as altar boys).  I just don't agree with the shift.  I think that altar boys should be at least tonsured.

There used to be a rationale for the Minor Orders.  Before you could appear in the Sanctuary with a cassock, you had to be a tonsured cleric.  Before you could serve and say the responses, you had to be an Acolyte.  Before you could sing the Epistle, you had to be a Lector (or Cantor in the Eastern Rite).  At one time the Minor Orders were FUNCTIONAL.  Now they've been reduced to a mere relic of the past without deep meaning, a mere ceremony on the way to the priesthood.

If I were you, however, I would not hesitate to participate, since ultimately it's for the Church to decide ... despite my personal opinion.
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 10:37:28 AM
Yes and no.  There's certainly no harm in women responding.  Now, if women were the ONLY ones responding, I think there's as much an issue there as if you had women only saying the responses during Mass (though some innovators even allowed that before Vatican II provided they were not in the Sanctuary).  You are actually mistaken in that the priest's recitation of the Divine Office IS considered a public liturgical act, and not merely a private prayer.

I personally would roll back to the earlier practice of the Church where one had to be a cleric in order for the act to be considered a public liturgical act.  It's laxity in this regard that led ultimately to the introduction of female lectors and altar girls.
Yes, you are correct. Thank you for the correction. You make great points. 
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 10:40:49 AM
Yes and no.  There's certainly no harm in women responding.  Now, if women were the ONLY ones responding, I think there's as much an issue there as if you had women only saying the responses during Mass (though some innovators even allowed that before Vatican II provided they were not in the Sanctuary).  You are actually mistaken in that the priest's recitation of the Divine Office IS considered a public liturgical act, and not merely a private prayer.

I personally would roll back to the earlier practice of the Church where one had to be a cleric in order for the act to be considered a public liturgical act.  It's laxity in this regard that led ultimately to the introduction of female lectors and altar girls.
As an aside, we are just in one big mess regarding the Liturgical Movement. I think it had the potential to give the Divine Office (among other things) the importance that it deserves. 
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 11:38:20 AM
When I was at St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary in the early 2000's, there would often be parishioners present at Compline. Especially in the days leading up to Ordinations in June. For those days, the pews were packed at 9:00 PM for Compline -- and a bunch of those laymen were female.

This was pre-Fr. Le Roux days, under +W.

Matthew
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 12:14:10 PM
What chapel is that? Most chapels do not have enough people to put together to sing the divine office. One needs to be trained and practically all the chapels will not have more than like 5 people that have the time. 
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 12:20:11 PM
What chapel is that? Most chapels do not have enough people to put together to sing the divine office. One needs to be trained and practically all the chapels will not have more than like 5 people that have the time.
One Holy Sacrifice of the mass is worth more than all the prayers of mankind from the beginning of the world. If it was me, the time I would have to spend learning to sing the divine office, I would instead dedicate to going to mass. I've seen many people regularly go to the weekday rosary and leave without going to the mass which follows. This tells me that they do not know the value of the mass.  
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
This was common practice ever since I attended SSPX chapels that had a priory (I started attending back in 2000). If there were Sister (such as in St Mary's) the women would be on the Gospel side and men on the Epistle side. If the chapel did not have Sisters, then one priest would be on one side and the other priests on the other side and the laity would just pick a side and follow the priests leading your side. So this nothing new for the SSPX.
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2019, 12:33:57 PM
This was common practice ever since I attended SSPX chapels that had a priory (I started attending back in 2000). If there were Sister (such as in St Mary's) the women would be on the Gospel side and men on the Epistle side. If the chapel did not have Sisters, then one priest would be on one side and the other priests on the other side and the laity would just pick a side and follow the priests leading your side. So this nothing new for the SSPX.
To be clear, the "common practice" refers to the topic "Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office" and not to the post that came before mine.
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on February 17, 2019, 12:20:45 PM
My SSPX chapel recently began the occasional practice of inviting the faithful to join the priest in reciting the liturgical office of Compline.

At first, I was excited about the opportunity, so I went the first time I was invited.

I guess I thought there must be some visiting priests or seminarians or something, but didn't give it much thought.

But when we got there, we realized there was nobody in the sanctuary.

The priest then took a seat in the pews, and alternated responses with the faithful (half of whom were women) in making the responses.

I know the faithful are perfectly able to pray the Divine Office, and since the priest was in the pews, not the sanctuary, I do not think this would be considered a public public liturgical action (?), but it really caught me off guard to hear women making the responses, and now I am not sure I want to participate at future opportunities.

I do not want to speculate on the priest's motives, which are presumed to be good and straightforward (i.e., He may just have thought, why not invite the faithful?), but with all this movement towards Rome, changing of rubrics for the faithful in many places, debates about women singing in choir or not, and whether active participation is good or modernist, I could not help wondering whether this new practice (i.e., I am not aware of this priest ever having done this prior to a month ago, and he has been here for a few years), I just wondered if anyone knowledgeable on the rules (if there are any rules) could opine whether there is anything untraditional about this?

Is it just myself who is uneasy about making the responses with women in the Church from the pews (not sanctuary)?
Incidentally, this same Academy/chapel had its graduation celebration down the road at the local Novus Ordo church’s hall this past summer, which was attended by several District priests and officials (the justification being that it was a non-liturgical event, close, and large enough to accommodate; apparently they couldn’t just rent a tent or find any of the other nearby halls for rent).
Today it is announced in the bulletin and from the pulpit that  the chapel’s talent show will be held “at the location listed in the bulletin.”
Ok, so what place is that?
The bulletin lists an address, but no name of the place.
But upon Googling the address, we learn that the location is St. Croix Lutheran School.
The  priest went out of his way not to mention that detail in either the bulletin or in his sermon announcement which addressed it.
Keep in mind this is the same chapel in which the priest a couple weeks ago sent an email to Academy parents announcing some Dialogue Masses in which he emphasized in bold print that the faithful are expected to make the responses, and that parents should instruct their families accordingly.
And this is also the same chapel which 1.5 years ago changed the “rubrics” or postures of the faithful to have them standing at the Sung Mass when the priest ascends the altar, when he is incensed, during the Sanctus, and during the Agnus Dei (and where the altar boys now pronounce the “domine non sum dignus” aloud with the priest, as is done in the French indultarian Benedictine monasteries).
I don’t suspect anything though.
I’m sure the Minneapolis metro area has had every other possible hall rented for several months, and we are only having the talent show at a Lutheran venue out of necessity.
I sure would like to be a fly inside the car windows as the faithful begin to arrive at the Lutheran school.
“Well, after all, its not like we’re praying with them.”
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on February 17, 2019, 12:22:56 PM

Incidentally, this same Academy/chapel had its graduation celebration down the road at the local Novus Ordo church’s hall this past summer, which was attended by several District priests and officials (the justification being that it was a non-liturgical event, close, and large enough to accommodate; apparently they couldn’t just rent a tent or find any of the other nearby halls for rent).

Today it is announced in the bulletin and from the pulpit that  the chapel’s talent show will be held “at the location listed in the bulletin.”

Ok, so what place is that?

The bulletin lists an address, but no name of the place.

But upon Googling the address, we learn that the location is St. Croix Lutheran School.

The  priest went out of his way not to mention that detail in either the bulletin or in his sermon announcement which addressed it.

Keep in mind this is the same chapel in which the priest a couple weeks ago sent an email to Academy parents announcing some Dialogue Masses in which he emphasized in bold print that the faithful are expected to make the responses, and that parents should instruct their families accordingly.

And this is also the same chapel which 1.5 years ago changed the “rubrics” or postures of the faithful to have them standing at the Sung Mass when the priest ascends the altar, when he is incensed, during the Sanctus, and during the Agnus Dei (and where the altar boys now pronounce the “domine non sum dignus” aloud with the priest, as is done in the French indultarian Benedictine monasteries).

I don’t suspect anything though.

I’m sure the Minneapolis metro area has had every other possible hall rented for several months, and we are only having the talent show at a Lutheran venue out of necessity.

I sure would like to be a fly inside the car windows as the faithful begin to arrive at the Lutheran school.
“Well, after all, its not like we’re praying with them.”
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: poche on February 19, 2019, 05:19:29 AM
What about the nuns who pray the Divine Office as part of their rule? 
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on February 19, 2019, 05:41:41 AM
What about the nuns who pray the Divine Office as part of their rule?
Do they pray it with priests and laymen, or in a cloistered convent?
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Ladislaus on February 19, 2019, 07:13:41 AM
What about the nuns who pray the Divine Office as part of their rule?

What about them, poche?  You tell us.

What about the lay person who recites the Office at home?

In fact, what about women who read the Bible at home?  Does that mean they can now become readers at Mass?  Although I'm asking the wrong person about that.
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on February 19, 2019, 10:22:43 AM

Sad.

5 years ago, a post like that would have been copy/pasted all over every Resistance website.

In the 2019 it doesn’t even elicit a single comment.


This "pearl of wisdom" was posted anonymously for a reason. It's painfully stupid and the author knows it!
You don't see a single comment? What are you, blind? There are 24 comments in this thread, not counting the one I deleted (which I quoted here).
Give me a break.

Matthew
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on February 19, 2019, 05:10:27 PM
Are you opposed to nuns praying the divine office in their public chapels?
(Every monastery has to have a public chapel: "The holy council forbids, however, that the holy body of Christ be reserved within the choir or the enclosure of the monastery and not in the public church".)
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Geremia on February 19, 2019, 05:11:25 PM
Do they pray it with priests and laymen, or in a cloistered convent?
They could pray it in a public chapel. See my previous comment.
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on February 19, 2019, 08:02:34 PM
They could pray it in a public chapel. See my previous comment.
How about cactly would cloistered nuns be praying the divine office in a public chapel?
And more to the point: How would cloistered nuns be praying the office with priests in choir (unless we are speaking about Novus Ordo Land, which we are not)?
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on February 19, 2019, 08:03:26 PM
How about cactly would cloistered nuns be praying the divine office in a public chapel?
And more to the point: How would cloistered nuns be praying the office with priests in choir (unless we are speaking about Novus Ordo Land, which we are not)?
How exactly would...
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: poche on February 19, 2019, 11:03:08 PM
Do they pray it with priests and laymen, or in a cloistered convent?
I imagine that nuns in a cloistered convent pray it within the convent itself. It may be that a lay woman who is making a retreat there or an aspirant may pray with them.  
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on February 19, 2019, 11:07:51 PM
What about them, poche?  You tell us.

What about the lay person who recites the Office at home?

In fact, what about women who read the Bible at home?  Does that mean they can now become readers at Mass?  Although I'm asking the wrong person about that.
Any person may recite the Divine Office in their home if they so choose. I think that it would be praiseworthy for anyone to read the Bible and pray in their home. Women are not allowed to be 'readers' at the TLM.
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on February 19, 2019, 11:09:49 PM
Are you opposed to nuns praying the divine office in their public chapels?
(Every monastery has to have a public chapel: "The holy council forbids, however, that the holy body of Christ be reserved within the choir or the enclosure of the monastery and not in the public church".)
St Teresa of Avila made reference to praying the Divine Office. While she was reading the versicle she saw a soul in Purgatory rise into Heaven.
Title: Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2019, 07:07:46 AM
This "pearl of wisdom" was posted anonymously for a reason. It's painfully stupid and the author knows it!
You don't see a single comment? What are you, blind? There are 24 comments in this thread, not counting the one I deleted (which I quoted here).
Give me a break.

Matthew
I think the post you quoted was referencing the absence of response/interest regarding the report of the SSPX chapel holding its talent show at the Lutheran school (ie., not saying the thread itself and/or its other content wasvreceiving no responses).