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Author Topic: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office  (Read 1289 times)

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Anonymous

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Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
« on: January 27, 2019, 04:21:10 PM »
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  • My SSPX chapel recently began the occasional practice of inviting the faithful to join the priest in reciting the liturgical office of Compline.

    At first, I was excited about the opportunity, so I went the first time I was invited.

    I guess I thought there must be some visiting priests or seminarians or something, but didn't give it much thought.

    But when we got there, we realized there was nobody in the sanctuary.

    The priest then took a seat in the pews, and alternated responses with the faithful (half of whom were women) in making the responses.

    I know the faithful are perfectly able to pray the Divine Office, and since the priest was in the pews, not the sanctuary, I do not think this would be considered a public public liturgical action (?), but it really caught me off guard to hear women making the responses, and now I am not sure I want to participate at future opportunities.

    I do not want to speculate on the priest's motives, which are presumed to be good and straightforward (i.e., He may just have thought, why not invite the faithful?), but with all this movement towards Rome, changing of rubrics for the faithful in many places, debates about women singing in choir or not, and whether active participation is good or modernist, I could not help wondering whether this new practice (i.e., I am not aware of this priest ever having done this prior to a month ago, and he has been here for a few years), I just wondered if anyone knowledgeable on the rules (if there are any rules) could opine whether there is anything untraditional about this?

    Is it just myself who is uneasy about making the responses with women in the Church from the pews (not sanctuary)?

    Anonymous

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #1 on: January 27, 2019, 04:27:45 PM »
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  • I know before Vatican II, the faithful used to often attend Vespers on Sunday afternoon, but that was hearing the clergy say the Office in the sanctuary, not the priest and faithful participating/responding in the pews.


    Anonymous

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #2 on: January 27, 2019, 04:43:35 PM »
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  • More or less goes hand-in-hand with the SSPX promotion of the Dialogue Mass: Active/lay participation is invading Tradition.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #3 on: January 27, 2019, 04:45:40 PM »
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  • More or less goes hand-in-hand with the SSPX promotion of the Dialogue Mass: Active/lay participation is invading Tradition.
    That's the liturgical movement.  The old books speak of "going to HEAR Mass," but since the liturgical movement, it is all about "going to PARTICIPATE in Mass."

    Anonymous

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #4 on: January 27, 2019, 05:00:47 PM »
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  • Well where are the men to participate? It is a problem emblematic of our modern world that women will participate in the things like this rather than men. The idea that women are "more pious", while true in certain respects, if the men are not there to respond then I guess the women have to respond. 

    Don't see an issue where there is none. In fact, I would say a bigger problem is when people see no value in the Divine Office but would rather see other devotions instead of the public recitation of the Office. 


    Anonymous

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #5 on: January 27, 2019, 05:02:25 PM »
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  • Correction: reading hastily I thought there were only women who responded. I am not sure I see a problem with the laity responding even if there were women. It is not a public liturgical act (although for the priest it fulfills his obligation). 

    Online Nadir

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #6 on: January 27, 2019, 09:59:58 PM »
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  • The loss of an adequate teaching authority has made folk overanxious and scrupulous.

    I see nothing wrong and women are not excluded from praying the Divine Office. It would be a wise move to encourage such liturgical prayer.

    The Divine Praises will greatly enrich your spiritual life as it has mine.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #7 on: January 28, 2019, 12:04:58 AM »
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  • My SSPX chapel recently began the occasional practice of inviting the faithful to join the priest in reciting the liturgical office of Compline.

    At first, I was excited about the opportunity, so I went the first time I was invited.

    I guess I thought there must be some visiting priests or seminarians or something, but didn't give it much thought.

    But when we got there, we realized there was nobody in the sanctuary.

    The priest then took a seat in the pews, and alternated responses with the faithful (half of whom were women) in making the responses.

    I know the faithful are perfectly able to pray the Divine Office, and since the priest was in the pews, not the sanctuary, I do not think this would be considered a public public liturgical action (?), but it really caught me off guard to hear women making the responses, and now I am not sure I want to participate at future opportunities.

    I do not want to speculate on the priest's motives, which are presumed to be good and straightforward (i.e., He may just have thought, why not invite the faithful?), but with all this movement towards Rome, changing of rubrics for the faithful in many places, debates about women singing in choir or not, and whether active participation is good or modernist, I could not help wondering whether this new practice (i.e., I am not aware of this priest ever having done this prior to a month ago, and he has been here for a few years), I just wondered if anyone knowledgeable on the rules (if there are any rules) could opine whether there is anything untraditional about this?

    Is it just myself who is uneasy about making the responses with women in the Church from the pews (not sanctuary)?
    What version of the Divine Office did he use?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #8 on: January 28, 2019, 08:58:00 AM »
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  • Correction: reading hastily I thought there were only women who responded. I am not sure I see a problem with the laity responding even if there were women. It is not a public liturgical act (although for the priest it fulfills his obligation).

    Yes and no.  There's certainly no harm in women responding.  Now, if women were the ONLY ones responding, I think there's as much an issue there as if you had women only saying the responses during Mass (though some innovators even allowed that before Vatican II provided they were not in the Sanctuary).  You are actually mistaken in that the priest's recitation of the Divine Office IS considered a public liturgical act, and not merely a private prayer.

    I personally would roll back to the earlier practice of the Church where one had to be a cleric in order for the act to be considered a public liturgical act.  It's laxity in this regard that led ultimately to the introduction of female lectors and altar girls.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #9 on: January 28, 2019, 09:57:26 AM »
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  • Yes and no.  There's certainly no harm in women responding.  Now, if women were the ONLY ones responding, I think there's as much an issue there as if you had women only saying the responses during Mass (though some innovators even allowed that before Vatican II provided they were not in the Sanctuary).  You are actually mistaken in that the priest's recitation of the Divine Office IS considered a public liturgical act, and not merely a private prayer.

    I personally would roll back to the earlier practice of the Church where one had to be a cleric in order for the act to be considered a public liturgical act.  It's laxity in this regard that led ultimately to the introduction of female lectors and altar girls.
    So do you think there is anything weird or unorthodox about the way this is being done?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #10 on: January 28, 2019, 10:16:31 AM »
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  • So do you think there is anything weird or unorthodox about the way this is being done?

    If there is at least one man singing the responses, then it's within the standards of the Church just prior to Vatican II ... since, for instance, lay males have been permitted to say the responses during Mass (as altar boys).  I just don't agree with the shift.  I think that altar boys should be at least tonsured.

    There used to be a rationale for the Minor Orders.  Before you could appear in the Sanctuary with a cassock, you had to be a tonsured cleric.  Before you could serve and say the responses, you had to be an Acolyte.  Before you could sing the Epistle, you had to be a Lector (or Cantor in the Eastern Rite).  At one time the Minor Orders were FUNCTIONAL.  Now they've been reduced to a mere relic of the past without deep meaning, a mere ceremony on the way to the priesthood.

    If I were you, however, I would not hesitate to participate, since ultimately it's for the Church to decide ... despite my personal opinion.


    Anonymous

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #11 on: January 28, 2019, 10:37:28 AM »
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  • Yes and no.  There's certainly no harm in women responding.  Now, if women were the ONLY ones responding, I think there's as much an issue there as if you had women only saying the responses during Mass (though some innovators even allowed that before Vatican II provided they were not in the Sanctuary).  You are actually mistaken in that the priest's recitation of the Divine Office IS considered a public liturgical act, and not merely a private prayer.

    I personally would roll back to the earlier practice of the Church where one had to be a cleric in order for the act to be considered a public liturgical act.  It's laxity in this regard that led ultimately to the introduction of female lectors and altar girls.
    Yes, you are correct. Thank you for the correction. You make great points. 

    Anonymous

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #12 on: January 28, 2019, 10:40:49 AM »
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  • Yes and no.  There's certainly no harm in women responding.  Now, if women were the ONLY ones responding, I think there's as much an issue there as if you had women only saying the responses during Mass (though some innovators even allowed that before Vatican II provided they were not in the Sanctuary).  You are actually mistaken in that the priest's recitation of the Divine Office IS considered a public liturgical act, and not merely a private prayer.

    I personally would roll back to the earlier practice of the Church where one had to be a cleric in order for the act to be considered a public liturgical act.  It's laxity in this regard that led ultimately to the introduction of female lectors and altar girls.
    As an aside, we are just in one big mess regarding the Liturgical Movement. I think it had the potential to give the Divine Office (among other things) the importance that it deserves. 

    Anonymous

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #13 on: January 28, 2019, 11:38:20 AM »
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  • When I was at St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary in the early 2000's, there would often be parishioners present at Compline. Especially in the days leading up to Ordinations in June. For those days, the pews were packed at 9:00 PM for Compline -- and a bunch of those laymen were female.

    This was pre-Fr. Le Roux days, under +W.

    Matthew

    Anonymous

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    Re: Lay and Female Participation in Divine Office
    « Reply #14 on: January 28, 2019, 12:14:10 PM »
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  • What chapel is that? Most chapels do not have enough people to put together to sing the divine office. One needs to be trained and practically all the chapels will not have more than like 5 people that have the time. 

     

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