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Author Topic: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite  (Read 11598 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
« Reply #120 on: October 26, 2021, 10:30:31 PM »
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  • I suppose this is analogous to occult heretics being members of the Church. 

    Sacraments performed by those with occult intentions to the contrary, unless manifested, are (presumed) valid.

    I'd say more than presumed, but that is only my opinion.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #121 on: October 26, 2021, 10:35:23 PM »
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  • If a man did not indeed to do what the Church does in performing baptism, the words would not come out of his mouth, nor would his hand be pouring water over someones head.

    To move ones mouth in order to pronunciate the required words is a true intention.

    To move ones hand in pouring water over someones head is a true intention.

    If they do not wish to baptize, it is merely a wish.

    If they intend to NOT do as the Church does, then the words would have have never been pronounced, nor water poured.

    THIS^^^.  As the article that I cited explained thoroughly, this would be an example of contradictory intent, of intending to DO what the Church DOES, but intending (wishing, as you put it so well) for it not to have the Sacramental effect.

    But I've not seen any theologians discuss the difference between intending the cause vs. intending the effect.  And my example of the gun clearly illustrates what you're articulating here as well.  I put the loaded gun up to a man's head and pull the trigger, while internally thinking that I do not wish for the man to be shot mortally in the head.  As you put it so well, that's just a wish or some kind of mental game.  As soon as I intend the cause, I am therefore also intending the effect.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #122 on: October 26, 2021, 10:38:12 PM »
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  • And at last we have the motive!

    I flushed this guy out as a Kellyite with my first post.

    +Mendez indeed.  Shortly before he was (likely manipulated) into consecrating Bishop Kelly, +Mendez suffered a stroke, and family members who spoke to him during that time testified that he didn't recognize them and was not in full possession of his faculties.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #123 on: October 26, 2021, 10:38:57 PM »
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  • I suppose this is analogous to occult heretics being members of the Church.

    Sacraments performed by those with occult intentions to the contrary, unless manifested, are (presumed) valid.

    I'd say more than presumed, but that is only my opinion.

    I agree.  It's more than just presumed valid.  It IS valid.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #124 on: October 26, 2021, 10:41:48 PM »
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  • THIS^^^.  As the article that I cited explained thoroughly, this would be an example of contradictory intent, of intending to DO what the Church DOES, but intending (wishing, as you put it so well) for it not to have the Sacramental effect.

    But I've not seen any theologians discuss the difference between intending the cause vs. intending the effect.  And my example of the gun clearly illustrates what you're articulating here as well.  I put the loaded gun up to a man's head and pull the trigger, while internally thinking that I do not wish for the man to be shot mortally in the head.  As you put it so well, that's just a wish or some kind of mental game.  As soon as I intend the cause, I am therefore also intending the effect.

    See my previous post about how I could feign a valid baptism using proper form/matter.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #125 on: October 26, 2021, 10:42:13 PM »
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  • If you can show me the “docuмented Masonic membership,” I’ll give you $1,000.

    I note your response contains bare assertions and no theology (and completely bypasses the quote I provided by Gasparri, for good reason).

    I intend to refute you until you go away, Satan.

    I could hardly care less if he were proven a Mason and we even found a letter in his persona effects stating that he withheld his intention when ordaining +Lefebvre to the priesthood.  It would still be valid.  I wouldn't have a moment of hesitation about its validity.  Sorry, +Lienart, but you intentionally performed the Rite of the Church, the effect of which is to confer Holy Orders.  I could hardly care less about his mental game or his wishful thinking.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #126 on: October 26, 2021, 10:44:31 PM »
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  • I agree.  It's more than just presumed valid.  It IS valid.

    I await your proud rebuttals of Alexander VIII, Leo Xiii, StThomas Aquinas, Cardinal Gasparri, Fr. Hunter, etc., etc.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #127 on: October 26, 2021, 10:46:10 PM »
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  • I could hardly care less if he were proven a Mason and we even found a letter in his persona effects stating that he withheld his intention when ordaining +Lefebvre to the priesthood.  It would still be valid.  I wouldn't have a moment of hesitation about its validity.  Sorry, +Lienart, but you intentionally performed the Rite of the Church, the effect of which is to confer Holy Orders.  I could hardly care less about his mental game or his wishful thinking.

    A sentimental statement refuted by every authority cited in this thread.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #128 on: October 26, 2021, 11:06:36 PM »
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  • See previous rebuttal.

    I can perform an invalid baptism right now, simply by declaring outwardly “I have no intention to do what the Church does” then perform the form/matter.  I would simply intend to demonstrate how to perform an invalid sacrament, not to do what the Church does.

    All the authorities are on my side against you.

    I agree such a declaration would invalidate any sacrament performed.

    Such a declaration is a public manifestation of your intention, but that is not what we are spilling ink over.

    We're talking about an internal intention, contrary to the correct performance of a sacrament, that is not publicly manifested when the sacrament is performed.

    I agree with Lad, it doesn't matter what someone wrote in a letter concerning their intention. What matters is the act itself and how it was manifested at that time.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Prayerful

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #129 on: October 27, 2021, 01:26:55 PM »
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  • There seem to be some here who cite obscure cases with no clear references, making sure to use untranslated Latin to make themselves seem clever, which essentially make the cult favouring claim that essentially reads the mind of bishops some trads don't like, and finds their intention wanting. It comes from the same stable as those who invented non una cuм, a horrifying error refuted by looking at an older missal where after the Pope and bishop, the monarch (who was often or always non Catholic, barring one or two deathbed conversions like Charles II). Obviously the ultimate point is that any one who goes to a chapel other than that of the cult leader or similar, goes to hell. The Plinioites who hate Archbishop Lefebvre do the same thing even though they usually go, at best, to diocesan TLM masses, like Attila Sinke Guimares who has such delusions that +Lefebvre had a personal masonic brass band, that +Lienart was obviously a freemason, and other delusions which suggest there is something in the water in Brazil. Who is +Lefebvre compared to holy Plinio de Correa?

    Offline aegis

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #130 on: October 27, 2021, 01:38:09 PM »
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  • There seem to be some here who cite obscure cases with no clear references, making sure to use untranslated Latin to make themselves seem clever, which essentially make the cult favouring claim that essentially reads the mind of bishops some trads don't like, and finds their intention wanting. It comes from the same stable as those who invented non una cuм, a horrifying error refuted by looking at an older missal where after the Pope and bishop, the monarch (who was often or always non Catholic, barring one or two deathbed conversions like Charles II). Obviously the ultimate point is that any one who goes to a chapel other than that of the cult leader or similar, goes to hell. The Plinioites who hate Archbishop Lefebvre do the same thing even though they usually go, at best, to diocesan TLM masses, like Attila Sinke Guimares who has such delusions that +Lefebvre had a personal masonic brass band, that +Lienart was obviously a freemason, and other delusions which suggest there is something in the water in Brazil. Who is +Lefebvre compared to holy Plinio de Correa?
    I tell you: everytime you see a plinioite, run or laugh. They shoot everyone (sedes, traditionalists, continuists, modernists, etc) just to put Plínio on a pedestal. It's ridiculous.
    𝖅𝖊𝖑𝖔 𝖟𝖊𝖑𝖆𝖙𝖚𝖘 𝖘𝖚𝖒 𝖕𝖗𝖔 𝕯𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖔 𝕯𝖊𝖔 𝖊𝖝𝖊𝖗𝖈𝖎𝖙𝖚𝖚𝖒.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #131 on: October 27, 2021, 03:21:15 PM »
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  • I agree such a declaration would invalidate any sacrament performed.

    Such a declaration is a public manifestation of your intention, but that is not what we are spilling ink over.

    We're talking about an internal intention, contrary to the correct performance of a sacrament, that is not publicly manifested when the sacrament is performed.

    I agree with Lad, it doesn't matter what someone wrote in a letter concerning their intention. What matters is the act itself and how it was manifested at that time.

    By making that declaration, you're not doing what the Church does.  You're thereby taking it out of the context of an ecclesiastical act.  With +Lienart, we're talking about a situation where he showed up at a Catholic cathedral and conducted the ordination ceremony that by all appearances was an official function of the Church.  By declaring outwardly "I have no intention to baptize." you're actually adulterating the form of Baptism ex adjuintis.  You perform it in a CONTEXT which makes it quite clear you're not doing what the Church does.  Just as if a couple people were goofing around pretending to be baptizing each other; the context there indicates that they are not intending to perform the rite but to merely simulate it.

    If some diary entry of +Lienart came out tomorrow stating, "When ordaining Lefebvre, I deliberately withheld my intention." I would still not hesitate for one second to go receive the Sacraments from an SSPX priest that was ordained directly or indirectly by +Lefebvre.  What matter is what appears in the external forum at the time that the ceremony is conducted.

    Sean can believe what he wants and wonder every time he goes to Mass, receives Communion, or goes to confession, whether or not he's receiving valid Sacraments.  Not I.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #132 on: October 27, 2021, 03:29:23 PM »
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  • By making that declaration, you're not doing what the Church does.  You're thereby taking it out of the context of an ecclesiastical act.  With +Lienart, we're talking about a situation where he showed up at a Catholic cathedral and conducted the ordination ceremony that by all appearances was an official function of the Church.  By declaring outwardly "I have no intention to baptize." you're actually adulterating the form of Baptism ex adjuintis.  You perform it in a CONTEXT which makes it quite clear that you don't intend to do it.  Just as if a couple people were goofing around pretending to be baptizing each other; the context there indicates that they are not intending to perform the rite but to merely simulate it.

    If some diary entry of +Lienart came out tomorrow stating, "When ordaining Lefebvre, I deliberately withheld my intention." I would still not hesitate for one second to go receive the Sacraments from an SSPX priest that was ordained directly or indirectly by +Lefebvre.

    I don’t really have any more to add.  

    All the popes, saints, doctors of the Church, and theologians I cited concur that a COVERT CONTRARY intention invalidates the sacrament (despite the presumption of validity in the absence of this contrary intention being manifested exteriorly).

    I cited Popes Alexander VIII and Leo XIII, St. Thomas Aquinas, Cardinal Gasparri, and Fr. Hunter.

    Though a couple people objected to their theology, none even attempted a refutation, instead preferring to state again and again their own subjective opinions.  

    While I don’t doubt CI theologians are much more reliable than those names given above, I think I’ll go out on a limb and stick with them anyway.  
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #133 on: October 27, 2021, 04:03:42 PM »
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  • All the popes, saints, doctors of the Church, and theologians I cited concur that a COVERT CONTRARY intention invalidates the sacrament (despite the presumption of validity in the absence of this contrary intention being manifested exteriorly).

    I cited Popes Alexander VIII and Leo XIII, St. Thomas Aquinas, Cardinal Gasparri, and Fr. Hunter.

    No, they don't, Sean.  Again, I invite you to read the article regarding what specifically Pope Alexander's Holy Office condemned.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
    « Reply #134 on: October 27, 2021, 04:10:52 PM »
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  • The last four pages of the thread linked below show that Ladislaus follows "apostle Ibranyi" rejecting the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition as well as Pope Leo XIII.


    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/are-novus-ordo-baptisms-valid-57051/msg708251/#msg708251