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Author Topic: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite  (Read 24454 times)

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Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
« Reply #130 on: October 27, 2021, 01:38:09 PM »
There seem to be some here who cite obscure cases with no clear references, making sure to use untranslated Latin to make themselves seem clever, which essentially make the cult favouring claim that essentially reads the mind of bishops some trads don't like, and finds their intention wanting. It comes from the same stable as those who invented non una cuм, a horrifying error refuted by looking at an older missal where after the Pope and bishop, the monarch (who was often or always non Catholic, barring one or two deathbed conversions like Charles II). Obviously the ultimate point is that any one who goes to a chapel other than that of the cult leader or similar, goes to hell. The Plinioites who hate Archbishop Lefebvre do the same thing even though they usually go, at best, to diocesan TLM masses, like Attila Sinke Guimares who has such delusions that +Lefebvre had a personal masonic brass band, that +Lienart was obviously a freemason, and other delusions which suggest there is something in the water in Brazil. Who is +Lefebvre compared to holy Plinio de Correa?
I tell you: everytime you see a plinioite, run or laugh. They shoot everyone (sedes, traditionalists, continuists, modernists, etc) just to put Plínio on a pedestal. It's ridiculous.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
« Reply #131 on: October 27, 2021, 03:21:15 PM »
I agree such a declaration would invalidate any sacrament performed.

Such a declaration is a public manifestation of your intention, but that is not what we are spilling ink over.

We're talking about an internal intention, contrary to the correct performance of a sacrament, that is not publicly manifested when the sacrament is performed.

I agree with Lad, it doesn't matter what someone wrote in a letter concerning their intention. What matters is the act itself and how it was manifested at that time.

By making that declaration, you're not doing what the Church does.  You're thereby taking it out of the context of an ecclesiastical act.  With +Lienart, we're talking about a situation where he showed up at a Catholic cathedral and conducted the ordination ceremony that by all appearances was an official function of the Church.  By declaring outwardly "I have no intention to baptize." you're actually adulterating the form of Baptism ex adjuintis.  You perform it in a CONTEXT which makes it quite clear you're not doing what the Church does.  Just as if a couple people were goofing around pretending to be baptizing each other; the context there indicates that they are not intending to perform the rite but to merely simulate it.

If some diary entry of +Lienart came out tomorrow stating, "When ordaining Lefebvre, I deliberately withheld my intention." I would still not hesitate for one second to go receive the Sacraments from an SSPX priest that was ordained directly or indirectly by +Lefebvre.  What matter is what appears in the external forum at the time that the ceremony is conducted.

Sean can believe what he wants and wonder every time he goes to Mass, receives Communion, or goes to confession, whether or not he's receiving valid Sacraments.  Not I.


Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
« Reply #132 on: October 27, 2021, 03:29:23 PM »
By making that declaration, you're not doing what the Church does.  You're thereby taking it out of the context of an ecclesiastical act.  With +Lienart, we're talking about a situation where he showed up at a Catholic cathedral and conducted the ordination ceremony that by all appearances was an official function of the Church.  By declaring outwardly "I have no intention to baptize." you're actually adulterating the form of Baptism ex adjuintis.  You perform it in a CONTEXT which makes it quite clear that you don't intend to do it.  Just as if a couple people were goofing around pretending to be baptizing each other; the context there indicates that they are not intending to perform the rite but to merely simulate it.

If some diary entry of +Lienart came out tomorrow stating, "When ordaining Lefebvre, I deliberately withheld my intention." I would still not hesitate for one second to go receive the Sacraments from an SSPX priest that was ordained directly or indirectly by +Lefebvre.

I don’t really have any more to add.  

All the popes, saints, doctors of the Church, and theologians I cited concur that a COVERT CONTRARY intention invalidates the sacrament (despite the presumption of validity in the absence of this contrary intention being manifested exteriorly).

I cited Popes Alexander VIII and Leo XIII, St. Thomas Aquinas, Cardinal Gasparri, and Fr. Hunter.

Though a couple people objected to their theology, none even attempted a refutation, instead preferring to state again and again their own subjective opinions.  

While I don’t doubt CI theologians are much more reliable than those names given above, I think I’ll go out on a limb and stick with them anyway.  

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
« Reply #133 on: October 27, 2021, 04:03:42 PM »
All the popes, saints, doctors of the Church, and theologians I cited concur that a COVERT CONTRARY intention invalidates the sacrament (despite the presumption of validity in the absence of this contrary intention being manifested exteriorly).

I cited Popes Alexander VIII and Leo XIII, St. Thomas Aquinas, Cardinal Gasparri, and Fr. Hunter.

No, they don't, Sean.  Again, I invite you to read the article regarding what specifically Pope Alexander's Holy Office condemned.

Änσnymσus

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Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
« Reply #134 on: October 27, 2021, 04:10:52 PM »
The last four pages of the thread linked below show that Ladislaus follows "apostle Ibranyi" rejecting the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition as well as Pope Leo XIII.


https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/are-novus-ordo-baptisms-valid-57051/msg708251/#msg708251