Author Topic: large family (Read 1551 times)

love alabama · « **on:** October 14, 2011, 08:44:46 PM »

I found this interesting thread on CAF
===============================================
Now, my wife and I have 8 children and in our (very traditional) parish that is about the average. For every family with less than 8 children there is one with more than 8. There's even a few with 10, 11, 12 +etc.

However, outside the parish when people ask about my family they are amazed, some even horrified, at the number of children we have, even Catholics. And to be honest I am a bit surprised by the reaction from other Catholics. Quite often it is "well I'm a Catholic too but my 2, or 3, children are more than enough for me". Often they will tell me that they are one of 5 or 6 siblings themselves, or their parents were one of 8 or 9 siblings, but they only have the one child, or 2, or 3.

So, where are all the traditionally large Catholic families? What is happening with the "modern" Catholic family? Have they disobeyed the Church's teachings on contraception? Is there a reluctance to accept God's will when it comes to the number of children He gives us? Or have they just become super experts on natural family planning?

I've been curious about this for awhile now. In a way I feel it is a bit sad as it seems yet another way that Catholics are losing their identity.

Any thoughts or comments, or am I mostly mistaken? How are things where you live?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #1 on:** October 14, 2011, 08:57:23 PM »

Yes, they don't believe in large families or in Church teaching. The priests tell them it's just fine to limit births. They don't really have the Catholic Faith. Full stop.

Vladimir · « **Reply #2 on:** October 14, 2011, 09:21:58 PM »

Another option is that the couple may just choose to refrain from intercourse almost entirely.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #3 on:** October 14, 2011, 09:44:55 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

Another option is that the couple may just choose to refrain from intercourse almost entirely.

You don't think that accounts for what he's talking about, do you?

ServantOfTheAlmighty · « **Reply #4 on:** October 15, 2011, 01:06:17 AM »

Quote from: Vladimir

Another option is that the couple may just choose to refrain from intercourse almost entirely.

Get back to reality.

ora pro me · « **Reply #5 on:** October 15, 2011, 07:23:21 PM »

Love Alabama,
I assume that you are a Traditional Catholic. As for the smaller families that you are talking about, I suspect that they are NO families. Is that assumption correct?

One other question: Have you thought of the possibility that some parents of smaller sized families simply weren't blessed with a healthy fertility? :sad:

I think that a modern diet of junk food can shorten one's fertility and a healthy diet can enhance one's fertility It makes sense, doesn't it? In another thread, we also saw a discussion on the possibility of wild yam harming a woman's fertility and then we also know that some natural herbs can help fertility. Knowledge of those things is not commonly known among average folks or even many doctors.

Of course, there are other possible reasons for infertility such as cancer or other illnesses, hormonal imbalances, scar tissue from surgery or illnesses such as appendicitis or ectopic pregancies that can really damage a women's fallopian tubes. Those are just a few of the many possible causes of a lower rate of fertility among some couples or even infertility.

Let's also not forget that a man can have some issues with infertility or at least a lower fertility than what a healthy man can have. :stare:

Now, I figure someone will think from this post that I am in blissful ignorance of a pervasive attitude among some Catholics that they have a right to thwart God's plan for the size of their families. On the contrary, I AM aware that some Catholics, particularly NO Catholics, have adopted that modern kind of thinking and it certainly is tragic, but I also have learned that we shouldn't jump to our own rash conclusions about the size of other's families. Prayer for others would be so much more helpful in this regard.

I used to jump to some rash conclusions myself in regards to smaller Catholic families. That was before I met a couple who told me the mother had more miscarriages than live births and before I found out that a woman who had a tragic loss of her fertility after her 3rd child was in tears because some busybody assumed that she was practicing NFP. Then another mother of a rather large family once told me that she was very lucky that she got married young since her fertility ended in her mid 30s. Those are just a few of the stories that have helped me to realize that we shouldn't jump to our own conclusions about why a Catholic couple has less children than what we may think is the "right" number.

St. Paul tells us that "Charity is patient, is kind; charity does not envy, is not pretentious, is not puffed up, (1 Cor. 13:4) and what I think particularly applies to what I am saying here is the part of that Epistle where St. Paul tells us that "Charity thinks no evil".

I hope that I am learning to avoid rash judgment of others. I try to say a prayer for someone if I realize that I am judging someone with rash judgment.

Vladimir · « **Reply #6 on:** October 15, 2011, 08:36:14 PM »

Quote from: ServantOfTheAlmighty

Quote from: Vladimir
Another option is that the couple may just choose to refrain from intercourse almost entirely.

Get back to reality.

It may be an insignificantly small percentage, and yes, the majority of Novus Ordo-ites may be committing mortal sin in regards to contraception, but just because it seems difficult to remain countenant in the married state, after both parties are of somewhat advanced age and their children are grown, does not mean it is impossible.

It is sickening to see carnal actions constitute the entirety of marriage.

@Telesphorus,

No. As stated above, it is likely a very small minority that actually chooses to remain chaste for whatever reason. However, St. Paul of the Cross says that we must attribute our neighbor's faults either to ignorance or to excuse them by believing that they have purity of intention (this obviously does not apply to every state of life or to every situation). It seems uncharitable to attribute small Catholic families entirely to contraception when there may be a wealth of other reasons. Granted, discussing such things in abstraction with statistics, etc without judging people personally is fine.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #7 on:** October 15, 2011, 09:02:36 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

No. As stated above, it is likely a very small minority that actually chooses to remain chaste for whatever reason. However, St. Paul of the Cross says that we must attribute our neighbor's faults either to ignorance or to excuse them by believing that they have purity of intention (this obviously does not apply to every state of life or to every situation). It seems uncharitable to attribute small Catholic families entirely to contraception when there may be a wealth of other reasons. Granted, discussing such things in abstraction with statistics, etc without judging people personally is fine.

Well, I think it is fair to judge a congregation of a certain size without judging individuals. To judge what's going on. Especially when as an altar boy you hear the priest tell someone "not to worry about it" - and when other children speak of finding their parents contraceptive devices.

love alabama · « **Reply #8 on:** October 16, 2011, 06:37:59 AM »

Quote from: ora pro me

Love Alabama,
I assume that you are a Traditional Catholic. As for the smaller families that you are talking about, I suspect that they are NO families. Is that assumption correct?

One other question: Have you thought of the possibility that some parents of smaller sized families simply weren't blessed with a healthy fertility? :sad:

I think that a modern diet of junk food can shorten one's fertility and a healthy diet can enhance one's fertility It makes sense, doesn't it? In another thread, we also saw a discussion on the possibility of wild yam harming a woman's fertility and then we also know that some natural herbs can help fertility. Knowledge of those things is not commonly known among average folks or even many doctors.

Of course, there are other possible reasons for infertility such as cancer or other illnesses, hormonal imbalances, scar tissue from surgery or illnesses such as appendicitis or ectopic pregancies that can really damage a women's fallopian tubes. Those are just a few of the many possible causes of a lower rate of fertility among some couples or even infertility.

Let's also not forget that a man can have some issues with infertility or at least a lower fertility than what a healthy man can have. :stare:

Now, I figure someone will think from this post that I am in blissful ignorance of a pervasive attitude among some Catholics that they have a right to thwart God's plan for the size of their families. On the contrary, I AM aware that some Catholics, particularly NO Catholics, have adopted that modern kind of thinking and it certainly is tragic, but I also have learned that we shouldn't jump to our own rash conclusions about the size of other's families. Prayer for others would be so much more helpful in this regard.

I used to jump to some rash conclusions myself in regards to smaller Catholic families. That was before I met a couple who told me the mother had more miscarriages than live births and before I found out that a woman who had a tragic loss of her fertility after her 3rd child was in tears because some busybody assumed that she was practicing NFP. Then another mother of a rather large family once told me that she was very lucky that she got married young since her fertility ended in her mid 30s. Those are just a few of the stories that have helped me to realize that we shouldn't jump to our own conclusions about why a Catholic couple has less children than what we may think is the "right" number.

St. Paul tells us that "Charity is patient, is kind; charity does not envy, is not pretentious, is not puffed up, (1 Cor. 13:4) and what I think particularly applies to what I am saying here is the part of that Epistle where St. Paul tells us that "Charity thinks no evil".

I hope that I am learning to avoid rash judgment of others. I try to say a prayer for someone if I realize that I am judging someone with rash judgment.

no its SSPX i think. Its not me who wrote this. I copied it from CAF

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 17, 2011, 08:21:57 AM »

To preface, I am not being uncharitable, I am speaking truth from my own observations and experiences.

I have attended SSPX for 18 months now. I have been to our small chapel and also the larger church located near our priory. The average size of the families with young children is about 6 or 8. All the priests talk about this at Mass as a reference. From my own observations, when couples are left alone, even in today's environment, this is still about the norm. Of course there are other ends to the norm, like a bell curve. Some have less than 6, others have more than 6, but most fit right with the bell.

NO Catholics are indistinquishable from secular people and many Protestants. Average family size really depends on location. When we lived in the south, we had just given birth to our 4th. We were a huge family. A very good friend of mine, cradle Catholic, was a lawyer with one daughter the same age as our youngest son at the time. She was using the pill and encouraged to do so by her parents. Her husband was a Methodist. She intended on having one other child when her daughter started school. She did just that. I know plenty of these stories.

Now that we live in the northeast, family size is a big larger--4. There are plenty of families here, not Catholic, with 4 or 5 children. So many of the NO Catholic families I know personally intentionally stopped at 4. Some are using the pill, other NFP, I know a handful who are sterilized. They are encouraged. I went to confession once because I was tempted to use some form of birth control and was really conflicted over it. My priest told me NOT TO WORRY. He said that God was merciful and I had to think about my mental health and our financial constraints.

When I gave birth to our 5th child, there were some snickers. When we added our 6th, we got out right stares and condemnation. I can only imagine what they think now that we have 7.

My observations are this. Yes, there are any number of people who have fertility problems. When I meet people at my traditional chapel that have 2 or 3 children, I immediately think that they have fertility issues or sickness. When I meet people who are NO with 2 or 3, I suspect its birth control in some form. Uncharitable? Perhaps. But I have been there and done that.