Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on May 05, 2012, 04:45:16 PM
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What's your best suggestion for jobs for traditional Catholics?
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Anything that anyone else would do, outside of like the obvious (for instance: drug dealer). I think we have a "directed" economy and the folks who "direct" it have modern values and so, pretty much every industry is full of "ick." What can you do. Just maintain your interior life.
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Pretty much what the OP said. There's almost no job nowadays in which you aren't "compromised" somehow; that's just the nature of the society we live in. Sad, but true.
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I don't know; I believe there are a lot of degrees between "Traditional Catholic book salesman" where your job is practically an apostolate/vocation, and "Abortionist" where you've totally sold out, Judas-style.
One piece of advice I have for young men: Don't follow the Baby Boomers. Even if you know a Boomer whose life "worked out" -- he did it 30 or 40 years earlier than you are trying to. The world is a different place now, in every possible way you could look at it.
For example, working for "the man". I would say: establish yourself doing something concrete that you can point to and say, "I did that". And if you are doing something so down-to-earth and visible, why not make a portfolio and go into business for yourself?
It helps to choose a career that can't be outsourced to China. If your job is easy, at-home telecommuting, prepare to lose your job to another telecommuter in India that will work for half the pay.
But plumbers don't have to worry about getting outsourced. Neither do carpenters, doctors, dentists, etc.
I think the future is going to be more and more demanding of all of us.
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Contractor. That way YOU decide who you work for. I contracted for Dell as a field technician, it was great because I got to travel a lot and meet people, and I was basically my own boss. Landscaping and gardening were jobs I always enjoyed when younger because I got to be out in God's beautiful nature. Easy to start your own landscaping business, too. Don't even have to have a mower- most older people have a mower but can't often get out to mow, do the work for them and use their equipment- you both win! Freelance writing for Catholic magazines and other publications. Make and sell rosaries. I make rosaries (though I refuse to sell them, rather I just give them away) and it's easy to learn. For about $15 at Our Lady's Rosary Makers (olrm[dot]org) I can get enough parts and wire to make a dozen nice rosaries. If I sold them they could easily bring $10 each- that's a good profit. I could get the priest's permission to sell them after mass in the parish hall when people are getting coffee and donuts. None of those jobs will make you rich, really, but they can all be very fulfilling. I'll try to think of more.
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I work in the dental insurance industry but would refuse to work in the medical insurance industry because that would entail paying for abortions.
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That brings up another point -- the old days of "I go to work 8 hours M-F, then I have evenings and weekends off to do personal things and spend time with my family" are long gone.
Nowadays you either have to work a part-time job in addition, or you work a series of small jobs (many of them in the category of Self Employment) to add up to "a living".
Yes, many people still have M-F jobs, but they are getting more and more rare. It's getting to the point where that isn't the norm anymore.
I do this myself. I have no less than 4 "jobs" -- and all my programming clients count as one job.
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I don't know; I believe there are a lot of degrees between "Traditional Catholic book salesman" where your job is practically an apostolate/vocation, and "Abortionist" where you've totally sold out, Judas-style.
One piece of advice I have for young men: Don't follow the Baby Boomers. Even if you know a Boomer whose life "worked out" -- he did it 30 or 40 years earlier than you are trying to. The world is a different place now, in every possible way you could look at it.
For example, working for "the man". I would say: establish yourself doing something concrete that you can point to and say, "I did that". And if you are doing something so down-to-earth and visible, why not make a portfolio and go into business for yourself?
It helps to choose a career that can't be outsourced to China. If your job is easy, at-home telecommuting, prepare to lose your job to another telecommuter in India that will work for half the pay.
But plumbers don't have to worry about getting outsourced. Neither do carpenters, doctors, dentists, etc.
I think the future is going to be more and more demanding of all of us.
Many American engineers and doctors have been replaced with H1-B visa.
And don't even think about landscaping.
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With import visas, you're losing your job to someone who's entered the country to work.
With outsourcing, you're competing against every employee worldwide.
I'd rather compete on the market with a few native & foreign employees, all of which can do the physical work at hand, than do something like Telemarketing or factory work which can easily be moved overseas with the flip of a switch.
I realize that having a skill is not a guarantee of a job. But if you can do something everyone needs (like in the case of a plumber, mechanic, handyman, etc.) you're probably not going to starve. You could go door-to-door offering your services if you had to.
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It helps to choose a career that can't be outsourced to China. If your job is easy, at-home telecommuting, prepare to lose your job to another telecommuter in India that will work for half the pay.
Much less than half the pay Matthew! My son works here in India for an outsourced British company. He is in the Accounts department and holds a British Accountancy qualification he obtained via distance learning, He earns $250 per month. He would perhaps earn much more than that had he obtained an outsourced job in cities like Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore etc. But with the qualification he has he got virtually no offer.
While these outsourced jobs are now big business in India with salaries relatively higher than those offered by purely local employers, they have caused the cost of living for the vast majority of people to go through the roof. For instance, we pay $1.25 for a liter of petrol.
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I don't support this American "Empire" thing, but I'd say there's a lot of opportunity in The Military and I think, the government will continue to spend a lot of money in that area, for decades to come. Lot of opportunities for women too. I think they're striving for 50%, in that regard and that's where a lot of police will come from in the future. It would be "nice" if that group of people had good morals and supported the catholic church. So, work and save to avoid debt and have a decent house and car, get married and have lots of kids and then go back to work once they're raised, to save for your retirement and help your kids. At least that seems to be the way people are doing it. Not surprising that leads to a lot of affairs and divorce though. It's scary.
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There are a few options one could consider. But Matt is right- there are members on this very forum who have gone through the 'tried and true' baby boomer method of: graduate high school, get a 4 year degree, have a simple life; only its not so true anymore.
I think the medical profession is an opportunity to explore. If you can get into a physician's assistant's program at a local community college, you will have the opportunity to make more money than an RN, work anywhere in the country, be in higher demand than RN's, and have a future.
Being a mechanic is another interesting opportunity. However, with the way the industry has gone, you're going to have to bank on working for a dealership; the days of independent shops are coming to a close. The cars that are being made today are so technically advanced, and auto manufacturers are keeping all their technology 'secrets' to themselves; and the market for brakes and oil changes is already flooded. But if you can build you way up as a tech, you may have a future. Going into diesel is an excellent option. Working on construction equipment, trains, transport refrigeration will be necessary and is in higher demand than being an auto tech.
I struggle with these thoughts as well, and I'm very well employed. I make a very decent salary (my wife gets to stay home, I own my home, my kids do not go without needs and get most of their wants), I don't see my career being an option for the next 30 years, not to mention I loath corporate America and its fixation on, money money money, numbers, numbers, numbers, more more more. It is by the grace of Our Lord that I have the job I do. A friend told me, wisely, that He gave it to me because I am not my own anymore, but have a family. But what is one to do in a position like mine? I am not able to go to school considering my schedule, community colleges are overflowing, a private school can cost upwards of 120k... I leave my life in His hands, but one must also be prudent, especially when there are mouths which depend on you.
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Unfortunately, the medical profession seems to make unreasonable demands in areas of math and science that seem to be of little use other than weeding out the students who can't jump through each progressivley more abstract and complicated loop of Calculus.
Perhaps I am simply ignorant, but I don't see any practical application of advanced math in the every day occupation of an RN or physician's assistant.
The topic of this thread is quite close to my heart, being a young adult that will be done with college, even should I go on to graduate school, in the next decade.
I'm going to be working on a "useless" degree - music. With maybe a double major in Sociology and a minor in French thrown in the mix.
What am I going to do with the degree? I don't really know, but it simply isn't feasible to change the degree - especially since I'm going to be attending university funded (by over 50%) by the music school.
Post- Bachelor's degree, I don't see much of a future other than odd jobs here and there that I will have probably already begun working during my undergraduate years. Teaching piano can bring in a few hundred extra monthly - and it's not terribly demanding, except time-wise. Being a church organist/pianist can pay reasonably - it's not uncommon for a graduate organ student to make $40,000 + annually with playing the organ for Saturday/Sunday services - throw in the occasional choir rehearsal. Again, not very demanding. I guess when all else fails, I can sit in front of shopping centers and play the violin for a few dollars!
What about the Sociology degree? What type of employment could I seek with it?
I think that after college, I could probably support myself provided I live modestly - which isn't a problem for me. I don't have any reservations working thankless jobs or blending into the backdrop of the mindless workforce, although I'll probably have to buff up a bit before manual labor becomes an option.
The real question is how will I find money to either 1) enter a religious house after to college for recollection and discernment or 2) after leaving the religious house, if applicable, how to find money to support a family.
As eager I would be, starting a family when one is working various odd jobs at the mercy of Protestant music ministry directors, etc seems totally irresponsible.
I've considered both RN and physician's assistanct, but the math is the barrier. I've also considered becoming a mortician. Morbid, yes.
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You don't need much math for an RN. College Algebra and Statistics at most.
The organic chem is probably the most challenging course and not all schools require it. Certainly for a BSN but not for an ASN or Diploma.
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Grow your own food, make your own clothes and produce your own ethanol. Then you can work at home! :laugh1:
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Get a degree, either two or four year, in something that is a:
a) Hard science, e.g. engineering, various hard sciences like chemistry, biology, etc.,
b) Not easily outsourced; don't become a software developer or programmer-an Asian can do as good or a better job for a lot less money. Try something that actually deals with real equipment. Real equipment breaks and needs to be fixed, and you can't outsource that. Think plumber, mechanic, electrician, computer repairman, etc.
Right now I'm working on a degree in electrical engineering. It's not easy, but if you put enough hours of study in it's definitely not impossible.
Try to stay away from a useless degree, e.g. sociology, psychology, English, History (even though I love the last two, I would never get a degree in them).
You don't need much math for an RN. College Algebra and Statistics at most.
The organic chem is probably the most challenging course and not all schools require it. Certainly for a BSN but not for an ASN or Diploma.
True that. I've never heard of a nurse program that required calculus; maybe Calc I at the most...I have to go up to Calc III and Differential Equations (DiffEQ :) ), but that's engineering.
And now, I'd better go study for my Calc II test..... :reading:
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Don't eliminate Computer Programmer from your list so quickly.
As long as you're doing "real work" -- you're the one designing and creating websites, for example -- you will find plenty of Americans who want to have a local person meet with them and design a website for them.
Large companies might outsource something like programming, but not small companies or home businesses. It's not exactly easy to get up at 3 in the morning to phone your programmer in India!
This is coming from someone with personal experience.
However, before everyone runs off to start their Computer Programming career, I have to add:
Don't consider programming unless you:
A) enjoy it
B) have a talent for it
C) learn things quickly
D) exceed at self-study
...preferably all of the above. It's easy for someone like me (a "born programmer") to out-compete a mediocre programmer. Unless, of course, you're talking about large companies, but we're not talking about them. But even large companies want to know what you can do -- if you can't show them things you wrote in your spare time, etc. you have a small chance of being hired.
Real programmers not only program for a living, but they gladly spend their free time learning new programming languages and writing software for fun -- or at least they have a desire to (in the case of those who are hopelessly busy)
There are few careers that require as much continuing education as "Computer Programmer". In fact, I'd like someone to point out just one career that even comes close.
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I am taking a programming course in C next semester. I was programming in Verilog HDL for a digital circuit design course this semester and enjoyed it. And I actually have considered that route. My main problem is that it seems to normally involve working for a large corporation; something which I am not to keen on. What I was mainly thinking of was software design, as far as outsourcing goes.
I would like to learn some Javascript this summer...it doesn't seem to hard. Any suggestions for something I could read watch online? Thanks!
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And you are definitely right about continuing education. My dad is a Network Analyst and spends a lot of time reading up on the latest technologies and going to training courses. That's what makes a career like that so interesting.
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Ummm the last two posts were mine (brainglitch) Not too sure why I'm posting as guest when logged in....hmmm...
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Ummm the last two posts were mine (brainglitch) Not too sure why I'm posting as guest when logged in....hmmm...
You have to click the little box at the bottom of the screen :detective:
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Ummm the last two posts were mine (brainglitch) Not too sure why I'm posting as guest when logged in....hmmm...
You have to click the little box at the bottom of the screen :detective:
And when you do, people can see you!
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Ummm the last two posts were mine (brainglitch) Not too sure why I'm posting as guest when logged in....hmmm...
You have to click the little box at the bottom of the screen :detective:
And when you do, people can see you!
And when you don't, they can't!
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:popcorn:
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I wish the best to the original poster, may God and His Most Holy Mother be merciful to him. I hope that he is not in the same situation as I am, I'm considered to be quite literally good for nothing as far as work goes. Too sickly and debilitated to dig ditches, Simply standing up for more than an hour or so causes severe pain. I tried to help my uncle in his machine shop, it was very simple, all I had to do was mind one of the machines, but I had to stop after an hour and a half because the pain was so bad that I couldn't be sure of doing everything in the right order, if I did it in wrong order the machine would malfunction and break several tools, cutters and reamers and so forth, so I had to stop. I don't along with people very well, I guess that I'm a "weirdo" or whatever they call it now. As far as computers go I can barely get onto the internet. In the old days I could've worked as a mail sorter, now of course with the depression the Post Office is getting rid of people, not hiring. Assembly line work would've been good as well, of course there's nothing left of that sort of thing where I live. I've been on the dole for years. My father and uncle are after me to get a job, but they don't really understand how the combination of the depression and all of the new technology have rendered the situation hopeless, all of the jobs that I could've done have either gone to China, or else they're now done by machines or computers. Things will only get worse from here. Such is life.
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(http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/st/gallery/images/340/ds9odo02.jpg)
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I wish the best to the original poster, may God and His Most Holy Mother be merciful to him. I hope that he is not in the same situation as I am, I'm considered to be quite literally good for nothing as far as work goes. Too sickly and debilitated to dig ditches, Simply standing up for more than an hour or so causes severe pain. I tried to help my uncle in his machine shop, it was very simple, all I had to do was mind one of the machines, but I had to stop after an hour and a half because the pain was so bad that I couldn't be sure of doing everything in the right order, if I did it in wrong order the machine would malfunction and break several tools, cutters and reamers and so forth, so I had to stop. I don't along with people very well, I guess that I'm a "weirdo" or whatever they call it now. As far as computers go I can barely get onto the internet. In the old days I could've worked as a mail sorter, now of course with the depression the Post Office is getting rid of people, not hiring. Assembly line work would've been good as well, of course there's nothing left of that sort of thing where I live. I've been on the dole for years. My father and uncle are after me to get a job, but they don't really understand how the combination of the depression and all of the new technology have rendered the situation hopeless, all of the jobs that I could've done have either gone to China, or else they're now done by machines or computers. Things will only get worse from here. Such is life.
OP here. You are not alone. The devil wants you to lose hope, to despair. Resist! You can do it.
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Thank you OP, may God and His Most Holy Mother bless and keep you and your family.
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Don't eliminate Computer Programmer from your list so quickly.
As long as you're doing "real work" -- you're the one designing and creating websites, for example -- you will find plenty of Americans who want to have a local person meet with them and design a website for them.
Large companies might outsource something like programming, but not small companies or home businesses. It's not exactly easy to get up at 3 in the morning to phone your programmer in India!
This is coming from someone with personal experience.
However, before everyone runs off to start their Computer Programming career, I have to add:
Don't consider programming unless you:
A) enjoy it
B) have a talent for it
C) learn things quickly
D) exceed at self-study
...preferably all of the above. It's easy for someone like me (a "born programmer") to out-compete a mediocre programmer. Unless, of course, you're talking about large companies, but we're not talking about them. But even large companies want to know what you can do -- if you can't show them things you wrote in your spare time, etc. you have a small chance of being hired.
Real programmers not only program for a living, but they gladly spend their free time learning new programming languages and writing software for fun -- or at least they have a desire to (in the case of those who are hopelessly busy)
There are few careers that require as much continuing education as "Computer Programmer". In fact, I'd like someone to point out just one career that even comes close.
I actually think that dentists are required to do a lot of continuing education.
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(http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/st/gallery/images/340/ds9odo02.jpg)
He's a shape shifter, you know, now you see him now you don't! Just like with the anonymous thing! Who's bothered by that!
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Salesperson selling B2B technology such as banking or accounting software, Master Data Management, web security technology, compliance software, human resources software.
Skip college, (waste of money and time). Start at the bottom in your late teens early 20s and stick with it. Hit the phones, call businesses and generate opportunities, network like mad, schmooze, remember people's birthdays, attend trade conferences and stick with it. Use the energy you have in your early 20s to really carve yourself a reputation for hard work and intelligent selling. Remember that your peers are going to be the managing directors of other firms and you'll be their old buddy who they trust.
Don't believe the fairytale that there is a better career out there somewhere that would leave you feeling much more fullfilled. Every job has it's ups and downs which is why it is called "work". If it was pleasant they would not pay you to do it.
By 25 you can be on a basic salary of $90,000 per year and double that in commissions. By 35 you will be on $150-$175k pa basic and $250k-$300 with commission while still doing a 9-5 job and not killing yourself. A lot of these roles let you work from home several days per week.
If you are smart you'll have debt free 5 bedroom house before you are 40 in a nice suburb with decent schools. Then you can back pedal for the next 25 years.
Large firms are crying out for salespeople with EXPERIENCE. Experience often means simply having lots of contacts and being a safe bet. They want to hire mediocre people as that is safe for them.
Once you have 10 years "experience" under your belt you can make a decent living simply by job hopping and make a six-figure income without killing yourself.
And don't believe the myth that salespeople all need the gift of the gab. All you need to be as a salesperson is a person who is generally speaking liked by people and likes people.
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Skip college, (waste of money and time).
Not if you get a degree in something actually useful (e.g. engineering). Every person I've talked to who has not gone to college has thought it was a huge mistake.
I'd rather be able to make something, and actually contribute to the world, rather than simply sell stuff other people made.
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Salesperson selling B2B technology such as banking or accounting software, Master Data Management, web security technology, compliance software, human resources software.
Skip college, (waste of money and time). Start at the bottom in your late teens early 20s and stick with it. Hit the phones, call businesses and generate opportunities, network like mad, schmooze, remember people's birthdays, attend trade conferences and stick with it. Use the energy you have in your early 20s to really carve yourself a reputation for hard work and intelligent selling. Remember that your peers are going to be the managing directors of other firms and you'll be their old buddy who they trust.
Don't believe the fairytale that there is a better career out there somewhere that would leave you feeling much more fullfilled. Every job has it's ups and downs which is why it is called "work". If it was pleasant they would not pay you to do it.
By 25 you can be on a basic salary of $90,000 per year and double that in commissions. By 35 you will be on $150-$175k pa basic and $250k-$300 with commission while still doing a 9-5 job and not killing yourself. A lot of these roles let you work from home several days per week.
If you are smart you'll have debt free 5 bedroom house before you are 40 in a nice suburb with decent schools. Then you can back pedal for the next 25 years.
Large firms are crying out for salespeople with EXPERIENCE. Experience often means simply having lots of contacts and being a safe bet. They want to hire mediocre people as that is safe for them.
Once you have 10 years "experience" under your belt you can make a decent living simply by job hopping and make a six-figure income without killing yourself.
And don't believe the myth that salespeople all need the gift of the gab. All you need to be as a salesperson is a person who is generally speaking liked by people and likes people.
I'm almost disappointed that this was posted on CathInfo.
Do we really have "this type of person" on here?
Nice suburb? Decent schools? 250K a year income?
So now we're about making lots of money, living the suburban life, and sending our children to public schools?
Read up on the Gospel, particularly the part about the "moth consumes" and "thieves break in and steal".
Also the part where Our Lord says that those who corrupt children would be better off if they were drowned in the sea with a millstone tied around their neck. What would He say about sending children to modern, communist, atheist public schools? They're an occasion of sin seven ways from Sunday.
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doctors (those who really care about making people well) have to learn a lot about the human body and have to keep up with the latest research more than even programmers do. Considering that the human brain is the most complex thing in the universe, one should not be surprised.
Engineering is not a bad career. I have been thinking of chemical engineering myself (i am a college student)
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Skip college, (waste of money and time).
Not if you get a degree in something actually useful (e.g. engineering). Every person I've talked to who has not gone to college has thought it was a huge mistake.
I'd rather be able to make something, and actually contribute to the world, rather than simply sell stuff other people made.
Without someone selling it, how would the engineer or the CEO get paid? How would the engineer know how to improve the design without someone constantly talking to the customers and knowing the competitors?
If you want to be 100000 or more in debt age 25 right around the time you should be having children with your Catholic wife having stayed chaste for all those years in college, then you are a braver man than me. Remember however that China are turning out engineers too and their language and culture do not hamper them as much in engineering from taking your job than they would in sales. No American wants to be sold to by some Chinaman flying in from Harbin. Different culture, funny accent, different sense of humor. Just does not work.
Chinese designed ipad, tv, jet engine, car, who cares as long as it is cheaper?
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A career in sales and skipping college makes a great deal of sense for the following reasons.
Selling is a people to people activity. The cannot replace B2B salespeople with bots or Chinamen or Mexicans.
Normal healthy Catholic men should be getting married in their early to mid 20s, not their mid thirties since normal men have a strong desire to have conjugal relations. Catholic families are going to grow and grow fast. You need a healthy income which, ideally, allows your wife to stay at home. A career like an engineer or a lawyer or a doctor demands a huge commitment of time and debt in your twenties and hopefully pays off in your mid to late thirties.
Professional selling therefore has advantages for a Trad. Selling is mostly about hard work, focus and total number of people contacted and networked with. But you can make 150k working 30 hours per week. You don't need an iq greater than 110, you don't need to be particularly academic and you will have more income in your 20s and 30s than your doctor or engineer peers.
Right around the time you need the money.
Finally the skill is very transferable because your value is in your network of contacts who trust you. You can find some other product or service to sell that same group.
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If you want to be 100000 or more in debt age 25 right around the time you should be having children with your Catholic wife having stayed chaste for all those years in college, then you are a braver man than me. Remember however that China are turning out engineers too and their language and culture do not hamper them as much in engineering from taking your job than they would in sales. No American wants to be sold to by some Chinaman flying in from Harbin. Different culture, funny accent, different sense of humor. Just does not work.
Nope....most of that stuff was sdesigned in the US, where there is a huge shortage of engineers.
Due to living at home, working part-time, and scholarships/grants, I will have very little debt (comparatively) when I graduate-maybe $20K at the most.
Average starting salary for engineers in my field: $40k+
Working in technical support/implementation for a company that sells various electronic equipment, I don't have a whole lot of respect for sales people. A lot of them are only concerned about making the sale and getting their commission. To that end they have made outrageous promises, offered features that we don't have, etc......then they ask engineering/tech support to "can we make it happen?". Then we grind our teeth and say "Yeah, sure....". Some of them are good and don't do stuff like that, but I still don;t have a whole lot of respect for sales as a profession.
Good luck trying to sell stuff in a depression....they'll still need engineers to keep the stuff already sold working.
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How old are you guest engineer?
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Salespeople typically do better in a recession. My people always have since I am at the demand end of selling and I've weathered 3 including this one and the DOT COM crash. Firms get focused on hitting their numbers and hire more and better people.
It's double or quits for a lot of B2B Tech firms at that point. It makes no sense for the caretaker CEOs or management to play it safe with the investors money so they often cut marketing fluff but increase the direct sales effort as this brings the fastest results.
They're living quarter to quarter.
On average salespeople make more money than engineers and work less hard.
I don't even need to leave the house or travel to work. I work in an office in my garden. Useful for family life.
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My brother is an engineer that works for the fed and makes $120K a year with no debt. He is finishing his masters with no debt and just turned 29. He works 3 days at the office and two days from home with premium health care, vacation time, and everything else. I think he made a good choice.
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My brother is an engineer that works for the fed and makes $120K a year with no debt. He is finishing his masters with no debt and just turned 29. He works 3 days at the office and two days from home with premium health care, vacation time, and everything else. I think he made a good choice.
I am sedetrad. It won't show my name in the post.
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I agree with you on sales ggreg.
That's the direction we've taken and as an example we made 10K in Jan for a week's worth of work in Oct. It's not a huge amount of money but for a week's worth of meetings? I'll take it and as many more like it as we can get! The flexibility of time and larger amounts that can be made in shorter amounts of time are exactly what motivate us. Especially as we want to live a simple Catholic lifestyle centered on the family rather than the rat race. We still work hard but we also aim to work smart.
What makes sales difficult and a bitter experience for many is
A) finding something to sell that is useful and needed, even in a recession or in our case, especially in a recession and
B) networking professionally.
We've got A down, we're still working on B. But I think that's always ongoing anyway no matter how successful you get. We're still in the beginner ground-breaking stage, building our clientele, but we also broker with others who have their 30 years of clientele already built and that's a huge advantage.
It's not easy and not suited to everyone but I wouldn't write sales off completely for those who are tempted to do so.
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What's immoral about financial data or accounting software or Master Data Management systems, or Blade servers or secure banking dongles?
There are literally thousands of useful and needed Business to Business services that need to be promoted and sold. They help businesses run more efficiently and competitively. Faster payments in banking. Remember when payments used to take several days to show up in your bank account? Now they show up the same day in most civilised countries and money from the US shows up in my USD bank account in the UK the next day. That is a useful service which benefits people as much as the jet engine or the electric toothbrush. I helped to sell several aspects of that. I made about $400k over 4 years with 5 clients. They made about $34 million.
Sure, some innovations mean that the businesses cut costs and humans lose jobs. That is called progress. The motor car was not evil because blacksmiths needed to find new work. Nor was the jet engine evil because Train drivers were put out of work. There are not entire offices dedicated to typing docuмents any longer either because of the word processor.
Agreed, Wallflower, the years of networking is a double edge sword. It takes years to develop which is why you want to start early and do it as much as possible. PM me on fisheaters or here and I'll send you some free training materials I put together years ago which you may find useful.
This is ggreg by the way but for some reason it is posting anon.
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Sure, some innovations mean that the businesses cut costs and humans lose jobs. That is called progress.
It may be called progress, but it's a sick joke to call it such.
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My brother is an engineer ... I think he made a good choice.
I am sedetrad. It won't show my name in the post.
Methinks you gotta check the box next to "DO NOT post this Anonymously"
at the bottom, right above the REPLY button.
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Agreed, Wallflower, the years of networking is a double edge sword. It takes years to develop which is why you want to start early and do it as much as possible. PM me on fisheaters or here and I'll send you some free training materials I put together years ago which you may find useful.
This is ggreg by the way but for some reason it is posting anon.
Will do! DH soaks up as much as he can. Luckily he is a people person anyway, but he does need to learn to focus it and apply it more professionally.
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but I'd say there's a lot of opportunity in The Military and I think, the government will continue to spend a lot of money in that area, for decades to come. Lot of opportunities for women too.
This is INSANE. You are not a Traditional Catholic.
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Look, here is how you SHOULD go about getting a job as a Traditional Catholic:
Self-employment. Start your own buisiness in whatever field you excell in, make money that way. Traditional Catholics are generally poor (not dirt poor, just a generally small-income family). You shouldn't waste your time doing all these modern jobs that some people here have recommended, like being a salesperson or joining the military.
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Look, here is how you SHOULD go about getting a job as a Traditional Catholic:
Self-employment. Start your own buisiness in whatever field you excell in, make money that way. Traditional Catholics are generally poor (not dirt poor, just a generally small-income family). You shouldn't waste your time doing all these modern jobs that some people here have recommended, like being a salesperson or joining the military.
And this is something you've done? Successfully?
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Look, here is how you SHOULD go about getting a job as a Traditional Catholic:
Self-employment. Start your own buisiness in whatever field you excell in, make money that way. Traditional Catholics are generally poor (not dirt poor, just a generally small-income family). You shouldn't waste your time doing all these modern jobs that some people here have recommended, like being a salesperson or joining the military.
And this is something you've done? Successfully?
I say this SS, because you've seem to be a stranger to practicality.
You think its so easy to just get up and start a successful business? Do you know the statistics on business start ups? Have you ever started one? And how do you start a business, without money? Can it be done, sure. But its not quite as easy as you say, or make it seem, especially in todays day and age.
I am in high end sales SS, but not by choice. However, its not a "waste of time". It feeds my family, and as far as I can see, is where God has chosen me to be in life, until he moves me elsewhere. Should I pick up and start a business because it's somehow not as "modern"? What a ridiculous thought process.
Stop giving advice, when you are still wet behind the ears. It is not yours to give in this case, as is evidenced by your illogical conclusion.
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Look, here is how you SHOULD go about getting a job as a Traditional Catholic:
Self-employment. Start your own buisiness in whatever field you excell in, make money that way. Traditional Catholics are generally poor (not dirt poor, just a generally small-income family). You shouldn't waste your time doing all these modern jobs that some people here have recommended, like being a salesperson or joining the military.
And this is something you've done? Successfully?
I say this SS, because you've seem to be a stranger to practicality.
[For sake of identification, I am the member contemplating the music/sociology major]
This seems to be a problem that isn't limited to just one user here.
I don't think that the idea of college is opposed to the Catholic faith. It's true that most college professors are liberal and that much misinformation is being spread in these institutions. Sure, college may just seems like a lot of expensive busy work to get a degree that isn't even a real accurate measure of your intelligence, but it seems like the reality is - graduating college at least proves that you had what it takes to endure the four extra years of education and earn the degree.
Personally, I wouldn't discriminate against a k-12 homeschooled person and a grad. school graduate if the former was more qualified for whatever I was looking for, but a lot of people probably do have that bias. Most people in the world don't evaluate others on an Catholic evaluation system, let alone a traditional Catholic system.
While I would like to contemplate the idea of a pastoral lifestyle, totally dependent on the land, etc - it just doesn't work for everyone, and in my opinion, it really isn't even necessary. I actually enjoy my modern conveniences, thank you.
I don't know enough about the traditional Catholic population, but it would seem that poverty is not a uniting factor.
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Sure, some innovations mean that the businesses cut costs and humans lose jobs. That is called progress.
It may be called progress, but it's a sick joke to call it such.
It has been happening since the beginning of time.
Blame the engineers for inventing labour saving devices.
Book writers, washerwomen, human dishwashers, carpet sweepers, chimney sweeps, dockyard workers have all gone the way of the dinosaur.
If Google develop the self-driving car (they have just acquired a licence for it) then Taxi Drivers are going to be consigned to history before long too. As will drunk drivers.
People need to re-skill and retool. That is the way of the world and always has been.
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Sure, some innovations mean that the businesses cut costs and humans lose jobs. That is called progress.
It may be called progress, but it's a sick joke to call it such.
It has been happening since the beginning of time.
Blame the engineers for inventing labour saving devices.
Book writers, washerwomen, human dishwashers, carpet sweepers, chimney sweeps, dockyard workers have all gone the way of the dinosaur.
If Google develop the self-driving car (they have just acquired a licence for it) then Taxi Drivers are going to be consigned to history before long too. As will drunk drivers.
People need to re-skill and retool. That is the way of the world and always has been.
Yes, but it's not progress. History is NOT a story of progress. Reject the myth of progress.
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And this is something you've done? Successfully?
That's a straw-man fallacy. It isn't about what I have done or not done, it's about what Traditional Catholics think. Plenty of Trads go into self-employment. Don't take it up with me, smart guy. Ask other Trads out there and see for yourself.
You think its so easy to just get up and start a successful business? Do you know the statistics on business start ups? Have you ever started one? And how do you start a business, without money? Can it be done, sure. But its not quite as easy as you say, or make it seem, especially in todays day and age.
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said it was easy. It's NEVER easy to go out there and be successful, regardless of what job you have. It's about doing the right thing. Self-employment is a Traditional Catholic idea.
Stop giving advice, when you are still wet behind the ears. It is not yours to give in this case, as is evidenced by your illogical conclusion.
I will give advice whenever I please, you two-faced hothead. Your post shows that YOU are wet behind the ears, because the idea of self-employment has apparently not registered in your mind. How kind of you to simply attack my post by asking me what I have done in life, rather than addressing my actual point.
And sorry if "two-faced hothead" sounds uncharitable, but you are indeed two-faced. You act like you're someone's friend one minute, then slander them the next.
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The above post is mine by the way. Sorry, I didn't mean to post that anonymously.
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You know, I couldn't believe what I read when I stumbled upon this thread. The junk, and I do mean JUNK, that has been posted on this thread is incredible. Not all of the posts on this thread have been bad, Matthew raised some good points. But what is with this junk about joining the military and so forth?
The neo-Trads have completely ruined the atmosphere on this forum. This is not the CatholicInfo I loved when I first joined. In the past, self-employment, homeschooling, and the woman staying at home were always supported. Now you see anyone who still supports those things made fun of, a prime example being this thread. Look at how s2srea questions what I've done in real life rather than addressing my point. He doesn't know what I have or have not done, who the heck is he to judge?
And I think it is DISGUSTING that people like Telesphorus have been incessantly made fun of because they speak out against feminism. I know my sympathy for the man is not popular here, but trust me, I can relate to anyone who is criticized for speaking out against it. I was made fun of on another forum a year ago for speaking out against it, I know what it's like. Matthew, Tele, Sede Catholic, Caraffa, and a few others here understand why it's wrong. But an unfortunate majority of people here seem too soft on the issue.
You know, when I posted on "Catholic" Answers, I actually had Novus Ordites there agree with me on the issue of women working outside the home. Sad to see that a Novus Ordo forum suddenly understands it more than this one.
(I know we're talking about jobs here, but the issue of women working outside the home was briefly mentioned.)
Anyway, a lot of neo-Trads here. Go ahead and thumb me down. I'll take it as a badge of honor. I care about defending the truth, not a bunch of meaningless reputation points.
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:confused1:
SS I 'm not sure why that question triggered such a reaction in you but it was a valid question. You want to find people who have succeeded or are succeeding and get their advice. If your only advice is --- be self-employed and reject what these others have to say --- it's only fair to ask if you've been successful at that. Especially since you seem to be a little misguided on what self-employment is.
Do you know how many people who are self-employed are actually in sales? We are self-employed. We are also in sales. More often than not the two go hand in hand.
Also, sales and the military are not "modern". They must be as old as civilization itself. And they will always be around, so if you find the right niche or are able to adapt to progess or change, however you want to put it, you will have job stability.
Whether the military should be pursued is a different story, one that I would not encourage, nevertheless I've seen some families do well with it. Enlist at 20, put in a 20 year career; schooling paid; good chance at being debt-free; retire at 40 -- young enough to start a whole new career, self-employed, with whatever trade or profession you trained for... that's an option worth considering. The military isn't all about guns and going off to war with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, it is a whole little civilization of its own. You have every option for a career from finance to every aspect of the medical field to legal or business admin, construction etc... The bases are like little independent cities with soldiers working every aspect. Choose a career that transitions well into the civilian world and you have it made when you get out. Again, I don't think it's the best option in today's climate but its mention is not worth the outburst either.
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I wasn't clear enough on what I said about being a salesperson, but never mind.
Whether the military should be pursued is a different story, one that I would not encourage, nevertheless I've seen some families do well with it. Enlist at 20, put in a 20 year career; schooling paid; good chance at being debt-free; retire at 40 -- young enough to start a whole new career, self-employed, with whatever trade or profession you trained for... that's an option worth considering.
With all due respect, you just proved my point with that freightening statement.
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I wasn't clear enough on what I said about being a salesperson, but never mind.
Whether the military should be pursued is a different story, one that I would not encourage, nevertheless I've seen some families do well with it. Enlist at 20, put in a 20 year career; schooling paid; good chance at being debt-free; retire at 40 -- young enough to start a whole new career, self-employed, with whatever trade or profession you trained for... that's an option worth considering.
With all due respect, you just proved my point with that freightening statement.
And what point was that again? That the many trad families who managed to PCS close to trad chapels (move paid for btw) and put their families through private trad schools and retire comfortably doing the above are neo-trads while you are the only one who knows how it SHOULD be done?
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I wonder whether wallflower is aware of just how rancid is the level of immorality in today's military.
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I wonder whether wallflower is aware of just how rancid is the level of immorality in today's military.
I am aware. More aware than SS or mysterious guests who probably only hear stories and have never lived the life. Like I said it's a little city, some areas are better and others are worse, some fields are better others are worse, some people are ammoral while others are upstanding goodwilled citizens worthy of respect and lifetime friendship, not all horror stories apply.
IF that's a route one would choose they have to choose wisely. While I am not afraid to acknowledge the benefits of such a career, reread my post about how much I would encourage this route before getting smug. It's called weighing pros and cons.
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I wasn't clear enough on what I said about being a salesperson, but never mind.
Whether the military should be pursued is a different story, one that I would not encourage, nevertheless I've seen some families do well with it. Enlist at 20, put in a 20 year career; schooling paid; good chance at being debt-free; retire at 40 -- young enough to start a whole new career, self-employed, with whatever trade or profession you trained for... that's an option worth considering.
With all due respect, you just proved my point with that freightening statement.
And what point was that again? That the many trad families who managed to PCS close to trad chapels (move paid for btw) and put their families through private trad schools and retire comfortably doing the above are neo-trads while you are the only one who knows how it SHOULD be done?
No, you are once again putting words in my mouth. I said that neo-Trads have infiltrated this forum, and your comment about how being in the military can work out is indeed soaked with neo-Traditionalism and feminism.
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I wasn't clear enough on what I said about being a salesperson, but never mind.
Whether the military should be pursued is a different story, one that I would not encourage, nevertheless I've seen some families do well with it. Enlist at 20, put in a 20 year career; schooling paid; good chance at being debt-free; retire at 40 -- young enough to start a whole new career, self-employed, with whatever trade or profession you trained for... that's an option worth considering.
With all due respect, you just proved my point with that freightening statement.
And what point was that again? That the many trad families who managed to PCS close to trad chapels (move paid for btw) and put their families through private trad schools and retire comfortably doing the above are neo-trads while you are the only one who knows how it SHOULD be done?
No, you are once again putting words in my mouth. I said that neo-Trads have infiltrated this forum, and your comment about how being in the military can work out is indeed soaked with neo-Traditionalism and feminism.
:laugh1: Sounds like the same thing to me.
And feminism?? Do we know that the OP is female? If so I would not mention considering the military. I have been assuming the OP is male or asking in general for males, seeing that traditionally women prefer to stay home with the children. Perhaps I missed a post clarifying that the OP is a woman or asking specifically about jobs for women?
Otherwise, in the context of considering the pros and cons of the military for men, I'm not sure how you're managing to throw feminism into it. Unless it's simply because I'm a woman daring to discuss jobs ... ?
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And feminism?? Do we know that the OP is female? If so I would not mention considering the military. I have been assuming the OP is male or asking in general for males, seeing that traditionally women prefer to stay home with the children. Perhaps I missed a post clarifying that the OP is a woman or asking specifically about jobs for women?
I never claimed the OP is a female. I'm talking about your softness on the issue.
Otherwise, in the context of considering the pros and cons of the military for men, I'm not sure how you're managing to throw feminism into it. Unless it's simply because I'm a woman daring to discuss jobs ... ?
No, because your statement was soaked with feminism.
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And feminism?? Do we know that the OP is female? If so I would not mention considering the military. I have been assuming the OP is male or asking in general for males, seeing that traditionally women prefer to stay home with the children. Perhaps I missed a post clarifying that the OP is a woman or asking specifically about jobs for women?
I never claimed the OP is a female. I'm talking about your softness on the issue.
Otherwise, in the context of considering the pros and cons of the military for men, I'm not sure how you're managing to throw feminism into it. Unless it's simply because I'm a woman daring to discuss jobs ... ?
No, because your statement was soaked with feminism.
You aren't answering the question. What is feminist about a man considering the pros and cons of the military?
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And feminism?? Do we know that the OP is female? If so I would not mention considering the military. I have been assuming the OP is male or asking in general for males, seeing that traditionally women prefer to stay home with the children. Perhaps I missed a post clarifying that the OP is a woman or asking specifically about jobs for women?
I never claimed the OP is a female. I'm talking about your softness on the issue.
Otherwise, in the context of considering the pros and cons of the military for men, I'm not sure how you're managing to throw feminism into it. Unless it's simply because I'm a woman daring to discuss jobs ... ?
No, because your statement was soaked with feminism.
You aren't answering the question. What is feminist about a man considering the pros and cons of the military? [/quote
I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that it is feminist for a woman to say some families "do well" with joining the military and that it "is an option worth considering". That is a FishEaters mentality.
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If you're not saying that, why do you keep repeating it? You just said again that it's feminist to say that some families do well and it's worth considering. You just keep repeating it's feminist without backing it up. Please enlighten us. What is feminist about it?
Wait, you said that it's feminist for "a woman" to say some families do well. Perhaps it would be different if I were a man saying some families do well?
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wallflower, the very fact that you're being insolent by arguing with a man is proof that you're not free of the feminist infection. Then again none of us are free of today's horrific breakdown.
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wallflower, the very fact that you're being insolent by arguing with a man is proof that you're not free of the feminist infection. Then again none of us are free of today's horrific breakdown.
So this is about me being a woman then and not about the actual military? The discussion is about whether or not it is a feminist concept to say that some families do well in the military. Do you have something to contribute to that?
Whether a person is for or against the military matters not to me. But at least provide intelligent arguments for your position. Be against the deployments, the fact that wars are not just, the fact that some families cannot choose their stations and may end up far from Mass, the crookedness of modern politics, anything ... trust me I can name more than you could, but to go with "feminist" because a woman happens to be in the conversation makes no sense.
What's going on here is far from insolence. SS simply can't back himself up. "A woman saying that some families do well in the military is feminist" :scratchchin: He threw feminism in there for fun but can't go anywhere with it because it makes no sense. That's not my fault.
Oh and I've only vowed to love, honor and obey one man. :wink: It's not SS. I believe I am free to disagree with SS.
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I have had many friends in the military. Several of my extended family-cousins and such-have been in the military. These people come from a wide range of backgrounds; most of them are not even traditional Catholics. They all agree on one thing: stay out of the military. Not because it is bad per se, but it has been largely ruined by liberalism and social experiments (women in combat zones, gαys, affirmative action, etc.).
Bad, bad, idea nowadays......
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If you're not saying that, why do you keep repeating it? You just said again that it's feminist to say that some families do well and it's worth considering. You just keep repeating it's feminist without backing it up. Please enlighten us. What is feminist about it?
Wait, you said that it's feminist for "a woman" to say some families do well. Perhaps it would be different if I were a man saying some families do well?
Have you read anything I wrote? The very fact that you bring up pros of joining the military that are "worth considering" is feminist.
It would be wrong for a man to say such a thing as well, except "feminist" is a term used to describe certain women, not men.
But at least provide intelligent arguments for your position. Be against the deployments, the fact that wars are not just, the fact that some families cannot choose their stations and may end up far from Mass, the crookedness of modern politics, anything ... trust me I can name more than you could, but to go with "feminist" because a woman happens to be in the conversation makes no sense.
I'm against joining the military for the very reasons you mentioned, as well as the feminists and gαys in there. I bring up the term "feminist" because you do in fact espouse feminist viewpoints, such as thinking it's ok for the woman to work outside the home in order to help her husband financially. I have proven that is false by posting what the Catechism of the Council of Trent stated on the matter. Your comment that the military is "an option worth considering" is a very feminist remark and is absurd.
He threw feminism in there for fun but can't go anywhere with it because it makes no sense. That's not my fault.
I've given my reasons before for why I don't think men should join the military, and why women ESPECIALLY should not. You're just trying to focus the spotlight on me when the core of the issue is that your views are feministic. You also accused me of going overboard, but you didn't say a word to s2srea when he went overboard with me. Probably because you and him are both soft on the issue.
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The above post is mine. Sorry, I keep forgetting to check to box so my post won't come out anonymously.
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If you're not saying that, why do you keep repeating it? You just said again that it's feminist to say that some families do well and it's worth considering. You just keep repeating it's feminist without backing it up. Please enlighten us. What is feminist about it?
Wait, you said that it's feminist for "a woman" to say some families do well. Perhaps it would be different if I were a man saying some families do well?
Have you read anything I wrote? The very fact that you bring up pros of joining the military that are "worth considering" is feminist.
It would be wrong for a man to say such a thing as well, except "feminist" is a term used to describe certain women, not men.
But at least provide intelligent arguments for your position. Be against the deployments, the fact that wars are not just, the fact that some families cannot choose their stations and may end up far from Mass, the crookedness of modern politics, anything ... trust me I can name more than you could, but to go with "feminist" because a woman happens to be in the conversation makes no sense.
I'm against joining the military for the very reasons you mentioned, as well as the feminists and gαys in there. I bring up the term "feminist" because you do in fact espouse feminist viewpoints, such as thinking it's ok for the woman to work outside the home in order to help her husband financially. I have proven that is false by posting what the Catechism of the Council of Trent stated on the matter. Your comment that the military is "an option worth considering" is a very feminist remark and is absurd.
He threw feminism in there for fun but can't go anywhere with it because it makes no sense. That's not my fault.
I've given my reasons before for why I don't think men should join the military, and why women ESPECIALLY should not. You're just trying to focus the spotlight on me when the core of the issue is that your views are feministic. You also accused me of going overboard, but you didn't say a word to s2srea when he went overboard with me. Probably because you and him are both soft on the issue.
You are confusing a LOT of issues but the bottom line, if we finally got to it, is that you brought in the word feminist because of me personally, not because a man considering the military or acknowledging that some families have done well there is actually a feminist concept.
Well, aside from proving that you can't discuss an actual subject at face value, this is a relief because that would have been quite the stretch of male logic for you to be saying that it's feminist for a man to be considering the military or for people to discuss men considering the military. But you saved it by admitting you have a problem with me personally and that's what's directing your posts.
BTW where are you getting your ideas on what I believe regarding women working outside the home? I'm sensing they are not based in reality so I'm curious.
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Sure, some innovations mean that the businesses cut costs and humans lose jobs. That is called progress.
It may be called progress, but it's a sick joke to call it such.
It has been happening since the beginning of time.
Blame the engineers for inventing labour saving devices.
Book writers, washerwomen, human dishwashers, carpet sweepers, chimney sweeps, dockyard workers have all gone the way of the dinosaur.
If Google develop the self-driving car (they have just acquired a licence for it) then Taxi Drivers are going to be consigned to history before long too. As will drunk drivers.
People need to re-skill and retool. That is the way of the world and always has been.
Our problem isn't increased productivity, it's betrayal.
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wallflower, the very fact that you're being insolent by arguing with a man is proof that you're not free of the feminist infection. Then again none of us are free of today's horrific breakdown.
So this is about me being a woman then and not about the actual military? The discussion is about whether or not it is a feminist concept to say that some families do well in the military. Do you have something to contribute to that?
Whether a person is for or against the military matters not to me. But at least provide intelligent arguments for your position. Be against the deployments, the fact that wars are not just, the fact that some families cannot choose their stations and may end up far from Mass, the crookedness of modern politics, anything ... trust me I can name more than you could, but to go with "feminist" because a woman happens to be in the conversation makes no sense.
What's going on here is far from insolence. SS simply can't back himself up. "A woman saying that some families do well in the military is feminist" :scratchchin: He threw feminism in there for fun but can't go anywhere with it because it makes no sense. That's not my fault.
Oh and I've only vowed to love, honor and obey one man. :wink: It's not SS. I believe I am free to disagree with SS.
This combativeness continually provides proof of the feminist infection.
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At this point, enlisting in the military is turning one's self into cannon fodder to help blood-thirsty international Jewry attain its long-held goal of world domination. What Catholic in his right mind would want to do that? As for women working outside of the house, prevent it at all costs. Women are much more easily influenced by group-think than men. Her gaggle of "friends" will keep whispering feminist rot in her ears, until one day she either comes home and announces that she's not haaaaapy (the extra a's are meant to represent the whining tone of an overgrown spoiled brat) and that she is getting a divorce immediately, as for you, you can go live in a motel somewhere. Or else, she may just clean out the house, using your money to pay the movers, and go off to her parents' house or something, leaving you a note to inform you of how things are now. The women know that the state is on their side. Of course they don't see that this is so because it helps to achieve the Marxist objective of destroying the family, if they were intelligent enough to see that, then they would know better than to expect that their life after marriage would be that of a Disney princess, and that they therefore should disregard the wicked advice of their mentally deranged "friends".
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I don't think our economy is designed to support a family with just dad working anymore. So, if you want a family, I think you're gonna have to do what you've got to do, to achieve that goal. If the economy has been designed to encourage certain occupations, then those are probably the ones you should pursue. No matter what you do, I wouldn't expect an easy ride.
I know a family where they lived on the husband's income and banked every dollar the wife made, until they had enough money to pay cash for their home and furniture. After that, she stayed home, had her kids, raised them and made nice home cooked meals for her family everyday.
He never had remarkable jobs. He was an average guy. He wasn't "driven" or "hard working," but they did fine, because they didn't have a lot of expenses. They had nice things, but they made things last a long, long time.
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I'm amazed at the number of poorer Trads I know who buy new furniture and cars on credit.
I have a 7 bed house with very good quality furniture, nearly all of it second hand from e-bay. Solid oak, ash, beech, high quality leather sofa. It will last till the children are grown up.
Takes a little time to acquire and don't expect a perfectly matching set but yuppie idiots are forever getting divorced and selling of furniture with hardly any wear for a fraction of the new cost.
I bought a 3 month old leather single seater chair which is wide enough to get all my children on the arms which I read a story to them for 8 pounds. About $13.
The idiot who sold it to me had decided to live the dream and go and start a bar in Tenerife with his wife and children. Was selling his entire house contents as cheaper than shipping them there (I imagine).
New price for the chair was $700. It was in mint condition five years ago and still looks great now.
Same thing for cars. If you bother to learn how the second hand car trade works you can save a great deal of money buying, maintaining and running a car.
With children you need stuff to be robust and easy to wipe down. Because they play on it, sick on it, and drop food on it. Decent quality leather can be steam cleaned and looks like new for a long time.
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I'd rather have high quality furniture that did not perfectly match than cheap matching items that look tired and worn after a couple of years of family use.
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He never had remarkable jobs. He was an average guy. He wasn't "driven" or "hard working," but they did fine, because they didn't have a lot of expenses.
Everyone has the expenses of property taxes, gasoline to get to Mass/Work, groceries, toilet paper, heating and lighting, Christmas, the odd vacation, prescriptions. Anyone ready this has an internet connection and a monthly bill. Most families have several mobile phones. Yes you can live without them but there are drawbacks to living without them.
I know a lady who does not have e-mail. She's not updated, and not invited to things which she would like to go to. She pays more for her utilities because she needs paper bills.
These everyday things add up to tens of thousands of dollars a year. Moving to the boonies to reduce those costs is often a false economy as the work in the boonies pays less.
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He never had remarkable jobs. He was an average guy. He wasn't "driven" or "hard working," but they did fine, because they didn't have a lot of expenses.
Everyone has the expenses of property taxes, gasoline to get to Mass/Work, groceries, toilet paper, heating and lighting, Christmas, the odd vacation, prescriptions. Anyone ready this has an internet connection and a monthly bill. Most families have several mobile phones. Yes you can live without them but there are drawbacks to living without them.
I know a lady who does not have e-mail. She's not updated, and not invited to things which she would like to go to. She pays more for her utilities because she needs paper bills.
These everyday things add up to tens of thousands of dollars a year. Moving to the boonies to reduce those costs is often a false economy as the work in the boonies pays less.
Well fine, but if you're married with say 3 kids and you make about 24k per year, you don't pay any taxes, except social security and medicare and you get all that back, plus a little with tax credits. So, you clear 2k per month plus. You qualify for basically free medical. So long as you're frugal, handy (especially with car repair) and the house is paid for, that's doable.
As long as you're paying into social security from a young age, your benefits at retirement are about equal to what you made working. Of course, that assumes the program isn't gutted, which it probably will be to a degree. So, maybe one of your kids can live with you and help out and you piece it together like that. Not a bad deal, if you start young, your spouse sticks with it and your kids don't wind up on crack or in prison.
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You are confusing a LOT of issues but the bottom line, if we finally got to it, is that you brought in the word feminist because of me personally, not because a man considering the military or acknowledging that some families have done well there is actually a feminist concept.
I brought in the word "feminist" because your comment was very feministic. That doesn't seem to be registering in your mind, but it was a very frieghtening comment.
Well, aside from proving that you can't discuss an actual subject at face value, this is a relief because that would have been quite the stretch of male logic for you to be saying that it's feminist for a man to be considering the military or for people to discuss men considering the military. But you saved it by admitting you have a problem with me personally and that's what's directing your posts.
That is a confusing jumble of words, but I do have a problem with your liberal, feministic mindset and your biased attitude towards people like Tele who speak out against it.
BTW where are you getting your ideas on what I believe regarding women working outside the home? I'm sensing they are not based in reality so I'm curious.
From you! Are you not paying attention? You're not getting anything I am saying, and that makes me wonder if you're capable of logical debate.
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I don't think our economy is designed to support a family with just dad working anymore.
That is absurd. Regardless of the economy, the Church teaches it's evil for the woman to work outside the home unless she has absolutely no choice.
Look at ANY Traditional Catholic family, even in this economy, and the woman stays home. It's possible and can in fact work out with enough dedication from the man.
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I think some people here need to read again what the Catechism of the Council of Trent states:
Duties Of A Husband
It is the duty of the husband to treat his wife generously and honourably. It should not be forgotten that Eve was called by Adam his companion. The woman, he says, whom thou gavest me as a companion. Hence it was, according to the opinion of some of the holy Fathers, that she was formed not from the feet but from the side of man; as, on the other hand, she was not formed from his head, in order to give her to understand that it was not hers to command but to obey her husband.
The husband should also be constantly occupied in some honest pursuit with a view to provide necessaries for the support of his family and to avoid idleness, the root of almost every vice.
He is also to keep all his family in order, to correct their morals, and see that they faithfully discharge their duties.
Duties Of A Wife
On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling hint lord.
To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband's consent.
Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.
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You are confusing a LOT of issues but the bottom line, if we finally got to it, is that you brought in the word feminist because of me personally, not because a man considering the military or acknowledging that some families have done well there is actually a feminist concept.
I brought in the word "feminist" because your comment was very feministic. That doesn't seem to be registering in your mind, but it was a very frieghtening comment.
Well, aside from proving that you can't discuss an actual subject at face value, this is a relief because that would have been quite the stretch of male logic for you to be saying that it's feminist for a man to be considering the military or for people to discuss men considering the military. But you saved it by admitting you have a problem with me personally and that's what's directing your posts.
That is a confusing jumble of words, but I do have a problem with your liberal, feministic mindset and your biased attitude towards people like Tele who speak out against it.
BTW where are you getting your ideas on what I believe regarding women working outside the home? I'm sensing they are not based in reality so I'm curious.
From you! Are you not paying attention? You're not getting anything I am saying, and that makes me wonder if you're capable of logical debate.
It can't be from me because I hold nothing different from what you've bolded in the Catechism that mothers should be home with their children unless compelled otherwise by necessity. I would like you to quote where I have ever said otherwise. Perhaps you are mixing me up with someone else?
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Wallflower, you have made the following statements before that show you adhere to liberal ideas:
-That it's ok for the woman to work if her husband needs financial support
-Joining the military is "an option worth considering"
-There is nothing wrong with a married woman working before she has kids
-Parents who's kids want to join the military should just accept it as God's Will
-There is not necessarily anything wrong with women going to college
-Feminism and the crisis in the Church shouldn't be discussed much
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You still can't answer a simple question with a straightforward answer. Man you are a good little student. Emulating the wrong teacher unfortunately. And that's exactly why forums can't let certain things slide for long periods of time. Young impressionable people are influenced.
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You still can't answer a simple question with a straightforward answer. Man you are a good little student. Emulating the wrong teacher unfortunately. And that's exactly why forums can't let certain things slide for long periods of time. Young impressionable people are influenced.
Yes, this forum shouldn't let your liberal ideas slide for very long. I will be happy to quote the instances where you said such things:
I don't believe women should work outside the home either, however, I am aware of reality and the fact that sometimes she needs to for many reasons beyond feminism, reasons beyond her control, reasons that come about because we do not yet reside in heaven where everything is perfect. Sometimes women don't marry and must find another pursuit. Sometimes husbands die. Sometimes husbands are vicious and run off. Sometimes there are financial straights. Sometimes there are no children. etc.. I can see and admit to all of those circuмstances without behaving as though they oppose the ideal through sheer feminism. There's the ideal and then there's the reality of a fallen nature and fallen world. We ought to be able to discuss both.
nevertheless I've seen some families do well with it. Enlist at 20, put in a 20 year career; schooling paid; good chance at being debt-free; retire at 40 -- young enough to start a whole new career, self-employed, with whatever trade or profession you trained for... that's an option worth considering.
Mrs Z has already tried the one tactic and admitted it didn't work, it is time for her to try the other and show her disapproval through silence.
(The above was from a long post of yours that mentioned God's Will but I decided to quote that part rather than the whole thing.)
So, it is clear that you express very liberal ideas.
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SS, I sympathize with your suspicion of wallflower, but the first quote about women sometimes having reason to work outside the home is not that bad.
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Wallflower, like s2srea, is a liberal who supports feministic ideas. You've already seen the liberal ideas she espouses, as proven by posts that she made. She conveniently told me I went overboard but didn't tell Mr. hothead, s2srea, the same thing when he exploded at me just because I made a comment about self-employment. These two will shrug off just about anything that is tainted with feminism, they will just make fun of you for your comments, call you prideful, emotional, a fool, or whatever.
Their neo-Traditional views are dangerous to this forum, and are drenched with liberalism. One feigns ignorance by pretending they never said the things you accused them of, while the other explodes in anger at anyone who calls them out for their filth that they spew on this forum. Of course, at least one is kind about it. The other's attitude is anything but kind.
Just look at the posts they have made on this thread. Compare their views on the matter to the views held by REAL Trads such as Matthew or Tele, and you will see a huge difference. Of course wallflower will not call out s2s for his uncharitable behavior or his liberal ideas, because her ideas are practically the same.
They both thumb down people for speaking the truth and constantly put them down, as they have done with Tele for so long (especially you s2s, with your vile slander against anyone who speaks out against feminism or who criticizes Bishop Fellay, you liar).
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(especially you s2s, with your vile slander against anyone who speaks out against feminism or who criticizes Bishop Fellay, you liar).
Hey- what is your problem? Did I do something to you? Are you offended because I disagreed with you on this thread because you were giving unrealistic advice? Based on what you have told us, you have no or very limited real world experience in the work force, have never started a business, are very young, yet you seem to think you are right on this matter. Its not a straw-man, despite your efforts to make it seem so. Being able to speak on an issue like this, it is usefull to have real world experience. Yet, it seems you have not done any of the advice you've given, and are offended that I ask if that is the case.
And you implied I was somehow "jealous" of you because you thought of the idea of starting a business and I didn't, when the fact is in my life-time:I have already started two businesses, one successful, one recently not, Have seen the evils of the military first hand, have been a firefighter in both federal and municipal departments, have worked professionally in universities and also engage in high-end sales. I do not say this to brag, only to show I have nothing to be jealous of. If this isn't a reflection of your pride, I do not know what is.
And on top of all of that, how did you get from that that I am somehow a feminist? Saying so does not make it so. Prove it. Please provide some proof, if you are going to make insinuations like that.
And I speak out against people who criticize Bishop Fellay? Prove it. You have my posting history at your disposal, but unfortunately you will find the opposite of what you are saying here- and I am puzzled at why you would say such a thing. I have only ever criticized the actions I've seen made public; though before I criticize any action or make an important decision which my family relies on, I ensure it is verifiable; even if it seems to 'fit the big picture'. Sure, I take it for what its worth, but until I hear it from someone official, I am free to not give it much credence, am I not free to do so?I am an ardent supporter of Bishop Wiliamson, and where ever he goes in the future, I too will follow. And for criticizing +Fellay, or my lack of it, this is also incorrect. Please do yourself a favor and read my posting history.
I find what is happening to you truly unfortunate and a sad sight, but given that you are without the sacraments and, as Wallflower rightly stated, given the nature of the person whose lead you are imitating, its not surprising. I will earnestly pray for you; I do not think you are a bad person, only mis-influenced and, , given your condemnations of most everyone being a 'feminist' or determining who is a "Traditional Catholic" or not, infected with a truly sad case of spiritual pride. I too make mistakes, and am sorry for them. I hope you can accept my apology.
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You still can't answer a simple question with a straightforward answer. Man you are a good little student. Emulating the wrong teacher unfortunately. And that's exactly why forums can't let certain things slide for long periods of time. Young impressionable people are influenced.
Yes, this forum shouldn't let your liberal ideas slide for very long. I will be happy to quote the instances where you said such things:
I don't believe women should work outside the home either, however, I am aware of reality and the fact that sometimes she needs to for many reasons beyond feminism, reasons beyond her control, reasons that come about because we do not yet reside in heaven where everything is perfect. Sometimes women don't marry and must find another pursuit. Sometimes husbands die. Sometimes husbands are vicious and run off. Sometimes there are financial straights. Sometimes there are no children. etc.. I can see and admit to all of those circuмstances without behaving as though they oppose the ideal through sheer feminism. There's the ideal and then there's the reality of a fallen nature and fallen world. We ought to be able to discuss both.
nevertheless I've seen some families do well with it. Enlist at 20, put in a 20 year career; schooling paid; good chance at being debt-free; retire at 40 -- young enough to start a whole new career, self-employed, with whatever trade or profession you trained for... that's an option worth considering.
Mrs Z has already tried the one tactic and admitted it didn't work, it is time for her to try the other and show her disapproval through silence.
(The above was from a long post of yours that mentioned God's Will but I decided to quote that part rather than the whole thing.) How convenient :wink:
So, it is clear that you express very liberal ideas.
Thank you for posting these, albeit some are incomplete and taken out of context. Still, honest minds can see for themselves that my views are nowhere near what you're trying to make them out to be nor are they in opposition to Catholic teaching or tradition. (As an aside --- you should have cut the word "nevertheless" out of the third quote because that clues people in to the fact that it was preceeded by a caution or negative view, thus negating your efforts to make it seem like I am fully positive towards the military.)
It would have been better for you to engage in discussion and clarify what you meant by sales rather than brushing that off, saying nevermind, and choosing to go off topic in a sadly predictable and unrelated rant about feminism. (Which, btw, you still haven't explained how stating the FACT that many solid trad families have done well in the military is feminist, but that's ok. We're not holding our breath.)
However I understand why you felt the need to go off topic. It did serve to distract from the original question which was how successful you've been at following your own job advice. It seems that might have been too uncomfortable a question for you to answer. Despite that I hope you are someday able to be self-employed. It really can be a great blessing. But not everyone gets that opportunity and even if they eventually do, sometimes they need to be otherwise employed in the meantime. There's no harm in discussing all aspects whether they are ideal or not.
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"My opinion is what the Church teaches. Therefore, if you disagree with me, you're a heretic!"
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Hey- what is your problem? Did I do something to you? Are you offended because I disagreed with you on this thread because you were giving unrealistic advice?
Your reply to my post last night was very arrogant on both this thread and the AQ thread. I'm not offended when people disagree with me, I am offended either when I am made fun of for stating what the Church teaches, or when someone slanders me. You have done both. I realize we all make mistakes, I admit I have made plenty and could start a thread listing tons of them if I wanted. But I make an effort to apologise to those I have wronged. (I apologised to you last night on the AQ thread, by the way, for returning insults at you, but my apology was deleted.)
Based on what you have told us, you have no or very limited real world experience in the work force, have never started a business, are very young, yet you seem to think you are right on this matter. Its not a straw-man, despite your efforts to make it seem so. Being able to speak on an issue like this, it is usefull to have real world experience. Yet, it seems you have not done any of the advice you've given, and are offended that I ask if that is the case.
It's not about my experience. I am stating what many, many Traditional Catholics also believe regarding self-employment. And yes, I was offended at the arrogance of your question. You could have just asked me and left it that that. But no, you were smug about it.
And you implied I was somehow "jealous" of you because you thought of the idea of starting a business and I didn't,
Absurd. I never implied you were jealous, nor did the thought of you being jealous enter my mind. I would imagine your outburst was due to the fact that I cut down being a salesman. I'm sorry if that offended you, I didn't mean to say all salespeople were in bad jobs.
I do not say this to brag, only to show I have nothing to be jealous of. If this isn't a reflection of your pride, I do not know what is.
Again, I never accused you of jealousy.
And on top of all of that, how did you get from that that I am somehow a feminist? Saying so does not make it so. Prove it. Please provide some proof, if you are going to make insinuations like that.
You have made similar remarks about women working outside the home as wallflower has, not to mention your attitiude towards me and three other users on the "women going to college" thread. Again, you apologised for calling us "fools" but never retracted your apparent belief that we were wrong despite providing sources to back up our claims. I'll be glad to quote your statements in another post, I'd do it in this post but I don't want this post to become too long.
And I speak out against people who criticize Bishop Fellay? Prove it. You have my posting history at your disposal, but unfortunately you will find the opposite of what you are saying here- and I am puzzled at why you would say such a thing.
Yes, you have. Last night you said to me:
Wait and see is very practical advice. Someone who has turned into an immature and unskilled overly emotional psudo-polemist wouldn't know it though. You've really changed in the past few months. The pride which pours forth from you is very apparent. I pray you can remove yourself from it.
I merely commended Serpahim for starting a thread defending Br. Joseph for his comments against Bishop Fellay, which were much deserved on his behalf (just read his immature letter in response to the other three Bishops). Then you responded with that slanderous junk, after I told you brainglitch was not behaving maturely.
I find what is happening to you truly unfortunate and a sad sight, but given that you are without the sacraments and, as Wallflower rightly stated, given the nature of the person whose lead you are imitating, its not surprising.
I am not "imitating" Telesphorus. I have stated before that my views on this issue have been EXACTLY the same long before I sympathized with Tele. I do sympathize with him given the treatment he has received for his truthful comments on feminism, just as I would sympathize with anyone who was slandered for stating such truths.
given your condemnations of most everyone being a 'feminist' or determining who is a "Traditional Catholic" or not, infected with a truly sad case of spiritual pride. I too make mistakes, and am sorry for them. I hope you can accept my apology.
That was not necessarily an apology. It is my duty as a Traditional Catholic to forgive people even if they have wronged me, but that does not mean I cannot and will not call out people who are wrong on certain matters. It's not pride on my part. I speak the truth because I post on Trad forums to help save souls (as well as my own).
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Which, btw, you still haven't explained how stating the FACT that many solid trad families have done well in the military is feminist, but that's ok. We're not holding our breath.)
It doesn't matter if they "do well". Wrong is wrong, regardless of the circuмstances.
Anyway, I thank you for your overall kind response, as you at least seem to be able to discuss these matters maturely.
God Bless.
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And you implied I was somehow "jealous" of you because you thought of the idea of starting a business and I didn't,
Absurd. I never implied you were jealous.
You're right. I interpreted a sentence of yours incorrectly. I went back and realized where my mistake was from.
And on top of all of that, how did you get from that that I am somehow a feminist? Saying so does not make it so. Prove it. Please provide some proof, if you are going to make insinuations like that.
You have made similar remarks about women working outside the home as wallflower has, not to mention your attitiude towards me and three other users on the "women going to college" thread. Again, you apologised for calling us "fools" but never retracted your apparent belief that we were wrong despite providing sources to back up our claims. I'll be glad to quote your statements in another post, I'd do it in this post but I don't want this post to become too long.
You were wrong, that's why. Why would I retract something where I am not wrong? And why are you so intent on finding faults with others here little minion? Oh, the answer is in the question... right?
And I speak out against people who criticize Bishop Fellay? Prove it. You have my posting history at your disposal, but unfortunately you will find the opposite of what you are saying here- and I am puzzled at why you would say such a thing.
Yes, you have. Last night you said to me:
Wait and see is very practical advice. Someone who has turned into an immature and unskilled overly emotional psudo-polemist wouldn't know it though. You've really changed in the past few months. The pride which pours forth from you is very apparent. I pray you can remove yourself from it.
I merely commended Serpahim for starting a thread defending Br. Joseph for his comments against Bishop Fellay, which were much deserved on his behalf (just read his immature letter in response to the other three Bishops). Then you responded with that slanderous junk, after I told you brainglitch was not behaving maturely.
This was slanderous how?
That was not necessarily an apology.
Ya, sometimes I apologize for nothing. Its a bad habit. Disregard it.
It is my duty as a Traditional Catholic to forgive people even if they have wronged me, but that does not mean I cannot and will not call out people who are wrong on certain matters.
You have not been wronged. You've just a overly-sensitive person.
It's not pride on my part. I speak the truth because I post on Trad forums to help save souls (as well as my own).
People who speak truth do not point it out as often as you do.
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The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband's consent.
Only in very grave circuмstances then, women are permitted to work. At the end of the day, the council of one's father confessor should be sought.
-s2srea
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You were wrong, that's why. Why would I retract something where I am not wrong?
No, we all backed ourselves up. You have not.
This was slanderous how?
You're not being very honest with yourself if you don't think that was slanderous.
You have not been wronged. You've just a overly-sensitive person.
And what's wrong with being sensitive?
People who speak truth do not point it out as often as you do.
How do you know this?
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Wallflower, I am sorry for exploding at you. I was mainly angry at s2s, not so much you. I should have controlled my temper.
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Apology accepted SS and I'm sorry for my snarkiness. It's hard for me reign in at times. Although the temper and the snarkiness I believe are the least of our issues. If we could manage not to jump to conclusions or rely on default answers we would probably do better.
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Haha, just realized I said "reign", like I'm a queen. (Athough DH did call me that today) But I meant rein.