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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on November 01, 2023, 07:13:49 PM
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Today talking with my nephew (8 yr) I mentioned today is All Soul's day and that it's good to pray for the souls in purgatory, he mentioned he would pray for his grandfather who I am pretty certain was eastern orthodox. I kept my mouth shut but I feel like I should have mentioned that praying for non-catholics does them nothing and is a waste of prayer.. i think I was influenced by human respect.
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Today talking with my nephew (8 yr) I mentioned today is All Soul's day and that it's good to pray for the souls in purgatory, he mentioned he would pray for his grandfather who I am pretty certain was eastern orthodox. I kept my mouth shut but I feel like I should have mentioned that praying for non-catholics does them nothing and is a waste of prayer.. i think I was influenced by human respect.
Op here, i will add that I am quite scrupulous and that bis mothers side is Catholic (novus ordo) and fathers side is eastern orthodox.
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Probably an imperfection or venial sin at best. Does the nephew even know that the grandfather was Eastern Orthodox? Besides, since the grandfather was validly baptized, it's always possible that he had a revelation or conversion on his deathbed and might be in need of prayer. Now, the Church does not pray publicly for deceased non-Catholics, due to the danger of religious indifferentism, and denial of EENS dogma, but it's also a matter of prudence to determine how and when to curb any such tendency in this nephew. You wouldn't just say, "Hey, sonny, gramps is burning in Hell." That might cause them to be ill disposed toward the Catholic Church, so you have to be cautious, prudent, etc. in making such corrections, especially where it comes to a slightly more distant relative (in the case a nephew) whose thought patterns, temperament, and dispositions you are not intimately familiar with.
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You are scrupulous! No prayer is wasted, especially that of an innocent child. Do not complicate his life. Keep it simple. It is not your role to intrude on the parents’ domain.
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You are scrupulous! No prayer is wasted, especially that of an innocent child. Do not complicate his life. Keep it simple. It is not your role to intrude on the parents’ domain.
It's not quite that simple. Church has in fact rebuked bishops who publicly asked the faithful to pray for non-Catholics, because it instills religious indifferentism and heresy in souls. So it's nothing to trifle with and "no prayer is wasted" is not the issue. It's not about whether the child's prayers are being wasted but about what doctrine is forming in his mind. Orthodox Doctrine is essential. Question is more along the lines of whether prudence dictates that a correction should be made, depending on whether the child would be receptive to it rather than making him resent the Church.
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Probably an imperfection or venial sin at best. Does the nephew even know that the grandfather was Eastern Orthodox? Besides, since the grandfather was validly baptized, it's always possible that he had a revelation or conversion on his deathbed and might be in need of prayer. Now, the Church does not pray publicly for deceased non-Catholics, due to the danger of religious indifferentism, and denial of EENS dogma, but it's also a matter of prudence to determine how and when to curb any such tendency in this nephew. You wouldn't just say, "Hey, sonny, gramps is burning in Hell." That might cause them to be ill disposed toward the Catholic Church, so you have to be cautious, prudent, etc. in making such corrections, especially where it comes to a slightly more distant relative (in the case a nephew) whose thought patterns, temperament, and dispositions you are not intimately familiar with.
Excellent answer!
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Probably an imperfection or venial sin at best. Does the nephew even know that the grandfather was Eastern Orthodox? Besides, since the grandfather was validly baptized, it's always possible that he had a revelation or conversion on his deathbed and might be in need of prayer. Now, the Church does not pray publicly for deceased non-Catholics, due to the danger of religious indifferentism, and denial of EENS dogma, but it's also a matter of prudence to determine how and when to curb any such tendency in this nephew. You wouldn't just say, "Hey, sonny, gramps is burning in Hell." That might cause them to be ill disposed toward the Catholic Church, so you have to be cautious, prudent, etc. in making such corrections, especially where it comes to a slightly more distant relative (in the case a nephew) whose thought patterns, temperament, and dispositions you are not intimately familiar with.
I'm not good with words, I am usually blunt so I am not sure what to say if this comes up again other than "grandpa is most likely in hell as there is no salvation outside the Church".
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It's not quite that simple. Church has in fact rebuked bishops who publicly asked the faithful to pray for non-Catholics, because it instills religious indifferentism and heresy in souls. So it's nothing to trifle with and "no prayer is wasted" is not the issue. It's not about whether the child's prayers are being wasted but about what doctrine is forming in his mind. Orthodox Doctrine is essential. Question is more along the lines of whether prudence dictates that a correction should be made, depending on whether the child would be receptive to it rather than making him resent the Church.
It is quite simple. The OP is a layperson speaking to a child, not a bishop addressing his faithful. There is no need to make a treatise on it. And the issue is certainly about "wasting" prayer.
I feel like I should have mentioned that praying for non-catholics does them nothing and is a waste of prayer.
Unless the OP has been charged with the child's religious formation, s/he really ought to refrain from commenting of the eternal fate of his grandfather, but he should be encouraged to pray for him regardless. If anything is to be said, it should be expressed in general terms rather than personal terms. Why introduce a child to one's own scruples. Obviously it is not a question of religious indifference on the part of the OP.
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It is quite simple. The OP is a layperson speaking to a child, not a bishop addressing his faithful. There is no need to make a treatise on it. And the issue is certainly about "wasting" prayer.
Unless the OP has been charged with the child's religious formation, s/he really ought to refrain from commenting of the eternal fate of his grandfather, but he should be encouraged to pray for him regardless. If anything is to be said, it should be expressed in general terms rather than personal terms. Why introduce a child to one's own scruples. Obviously it is not a question of religious indifference on the part of the OP.
But what benefit does praying for the damned do for them? Do they get less punishment in hell after the Resurrection?
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Today talking with my nephew (8 yr) I mentioned today is All Soul's day and that it's good to pray for the souls in purgatory, he mentioned he would pray for his grandfather who I am pretty certain was eastern orthodox. I kept my mouth shut but I feel like I should have mentioned that praying for non-catholics does them nothing and is a waste of prayer.. i think I was influenced by human respect.
I think you did well, both the prudent and the charitable thing. You don't want to stamp an 8 year old mind with thoughts it cannot possibly grapple with. You do want to stamp it with thoughts it can handle, namely, in this case, that it is a good and holy thing to pray for the dead.
And while we're at it, you don't want to oppress your own mind with thoughts it cannot possibly grapple with - thoughts that come from beneath, yes?
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I think you did well, both the prudent and the charitable thing. You don't want to stamp an 8 year old mind with thoughts it cannot possibly grapple with. You do want to stamp it with thoughts it can handle, namely, in this case, that it is a good and holy thing to pray for the dead.
And while we're at it, you don't want to oppress your own mind with thoughts it cannot possibly grapple with - thoughts that come from beneath, yes?
So I didn't sin? Also not sure what you mean by the second part.
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So I didn't sin? Also not sure what you mean by the second part.
I'm no priest, but I think you did well. I think you acted with virtue and good sense. You were dealing with an 8 year old. The whole case resolves on that one point. It's about him, not you. It's the question of how to gift him with wisdom and charity. You owed him something in that exchange, because you are an elder in the Faith. You owed him example and instruction - and, I repeat, you gave what you owed, and did not err.
The second part relates to the possibility that you are scrupling over this. Scruples are temptations from the devil, who is from beneath.
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I'm no priest, but I think you did well. I think you acted with virtue and good sense. You were dealing with an 8 year old. The whole case resolves on that one point. It's about him, not you. It's the question of how to gift him with wisdom and charity. You owed him something in that exchange, because you are an elder in the Faith. You owed him example and instruction - and, I repeat, you gave what you owed, and did not err.
The second part relates to the possibility that you are scrupling over this. Scruples are temptations from the devil, who is from beneath.
That was me. Forgot to check that box!
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Today talking with my nephew (8 yr) I mentioned today is All Soul's day and that it's good to pray for the souls in purgatory, he mentioned he would pray for his grandfather who I am pretty certain was eastern orthodox. I kept my mouth shut but I feel like I should have mentioned that praying for non-catholics does them nothing and is a waste of prayer.. i think I was influenced by human respect.
One other thought. I pray for dead non-Catholics the same way I pray for living ones. Prayer is outside of time. You can pray that they receive the grace of conversion at the moment of their death. You can pray this hours, days, years, even centuries after their death.
You'll think I'm nuts, but I pray for Pontius Pilate, the poorest slob this world has ever known. Talk about a victim of circuмstances. How many of us would have stood up to that onslaught of persecution? Yes, Pilate was persecuted by the Jews. And we know that his wife was touched by grace. Even our Lord encouraged him by telling him his sin was not as great as that of the Jews.
I have deep, deep sympathy for Pilate, my countryman. I pray for him, that he repents and confesses the truth before he closes his eyes. I read once on Traditio that he is venerated as a Saint in the East. That gave me much happiness.
Now, none of this is mental fodder for an 8 year old. All he requires for now is that it is a good and holy thing to pray for the dead. When he is older, he will be ready for distinctions and subtleties enough.
He is certainly old enough now to be taught a prayer or two in Latin, and how to practice daily devotions for the Poor Souls. So, you can focus on amping his praxis.
Pax!
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I think it's a really good idea to pray for Sr. Lucia, that she receive the Divine strength to persevere in her trials, especially at the moment of her death, which may have been extremely frightening. She needs prayer!
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One other thought. I pray for dead non-Catholics the same way I pray for living ones. Prayer is outside of time. You can pray that they receive the grace of conversion at the moment of their death. You can pray this hours, days, years, even centuries after their death.
You'll think I'm nuts, but I pray for Pontius Pilate, the poorest slob this world has ever known. Talk about a victim of circuмstances. How many of us would have stood up to that onslaught of persecution? Yes, Pilate was persecuted by the Jews. And we know that his wife was touched by grace. Even our Lord encouraged him by telling him his sin was not as great as that of the Jews.
I have deep, deep sympathy for Pilate, my countryman. I pray for him, that he repents and confesses the truth before he closes his eyes. I read once on Traditio that he is venerated as a Saint in the East. That gave me much happiness.
Now, none of this is mental fodder for an 8 year old. All he requires for now is that it is a good and holy thing to pray for the dead. When he is older, he will be ready for distinctions and subtleties enough.
He is certainly old enough now to be taught a prayer or two in Latin, and how to practice daily devotions for the Poor Souls. So, you can focus on amping his praxis.
Pax!
I read (I think from St John of the Cross) that Pilate's wife Visions were from the devil. As it was God's will to die, and due to her visions she was against it. Also can't Pilate be considered a vessel of destruction?
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I read (I think from St John of the Cross) that Pilate's wife Visions were from the devil. As it was God's will to die, and due to her visions she was against it. Also can't Pilate be considered a vessel of destruction?
Well.......anything I say in this reply should not be taken as me arguing a position, because I am merely revealing the movements of my own soul, which, I am sure, is full of illusions.
I don't know what a vessel of destruction is. I've never heard that term before. Of course the term vessel of election was used by our Lord himself, referring to St. Paul. I searched the term 'vessel of destruction' in the Douay, and nothing came up.
I think I have heard it said somewhere in the past that Pilate's wife's visions were from the devil, but that is not determinative for me; it would not change my desire to pray for him.
1. The very first demonic vision came to Eve. She was tricked by it, and sinned against herself and her husband because of it. But in the Exsultet we hear the Church pray, O Happy Fault!
2. All demonic visions are permitted by God to bring about God's own purposes.
3. Peter was certainly being guided by the devil when he suggested to our Lord that He should not go to Jerusalem if that meant His Death. Jesus rebuked him, calling him satan. And yet, consider the grace and instruction that has flowed down to Christians throughout two centuries, as a direct result of the Apostle's temptation.
4. We are often instructed more by temptations - ours and those of others - than by clear acts of virtue.
5. Everything the devil did on Good Friday boomeranged on him, slapped him in the face, increased his humiliation, and lowered his position in Hell. From the standpoint of his soul, Pilate's wife's dream served as a warning to him. It provided him with a kind of light - the devils can tell the truth for nefarious reasons. It was, in fact, a grace that commenced a terrible and grave struggle in Pilate's poor miserable soul. Fr. Groenings has far less sympathy for Pilate than I do. He found him a nasty, prideful profligate. I side more with Jesus, Who loved Pilate. Jesus loved him. Jesus, in that short span, gave Pilate a lifetime of instruction.
Pilate failed in his first test, but so did Peter and the Apostles.
6. What is a vessel of destruction? We don't believe in Calvinistic predestination. We believe in the hope of God's mercy for the worst sinners. What is it?
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I had a similar situation with my mother, who was an occultist. My kids knew she wasn't Catholic but I never really went into details why we couldn't have a lot of contact with her. The kids were a bit hurt but as they got older they became the victims of her cruelty. I was vindicated and my children learned the truth when we were cleaning out her belongings after she died. She had mountains of occult books, tarot cards, crystals, you name it. By then they were almost adults, solid in their faith, and understood immediately why I cut her off. I never really had to explain it so God arranged that they would find out without me being the messenger, which certainly would have damaged my relationship with my kids. She was the "fun" grandma so they held her in high regard when they were little.
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One other thought. I pray for dead non-Catholics the same way I pray for living ones. Prayer is outside of time. You can pray that they receive the grace of conversion at the moment of their death. You can pray this hours, days, years, even centuries after their death.
Yes, as long as it's clear that it's what you're doing. I've put this out there myself, and cited Padre Pio saying the same thing. God is outside of time, and for Him past, present, and future are all eternally present.
But the issue is when people start to imagine that those who die outside the Church can be saved (i.e. can be in Purgatory) ... without having first converted. Without such qualifications as you stated above, this leads inexorably to the heretical implication that there can be salvation outside the Church, and that must be avoided.
At one point, the Dimond Brothers posted a video where a Pope rebuked/condemned a bishop who had publicly requested from the faithful prayers for a deceased non-Catholic (some non-Catholic monarch). So this wasn't simply the liturgical prayer of the Church, but any kind of public request for private prayers from the faithful. It's been thrown out there by people that we can pray privately for non-Catholics, even though the Church doesn't pray publicly for them, but this statement from the Pope undermines that distinction. We could, however, pray for the departed non-Catholics with the mentality above, that they assist (in past time) the dying soul to convert and, then, if the soul had converted, to help relieve their sufferings in Purgatory.
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It is quite simple. The OP is a layperson speaking to a child, not a bishop addressing his faithful. There is no need to make a treatise on it. And the issue is certainly about "wasting" prayer.
Unless the OP has been charged with the child's religious formation, s/he really ought to refrain from commenting of the eternal fate of his grandfather, but he should be encouraged to pray for him regardless. If anything is to be said, it should be expressed in general terms rather than personal terms. Why introduce a child to one's own scruples. Obviously it is not a question of religious indifference on the part of the OP.
Completely wrong. It is not at all about wasting prayer but about whether the child believes that non-Catholics can be saved. Now, prudence might dictate whether this is the opportune time and the place to bring it up, whether it might do more harm than good for the child, but in the longer term, the impression that non-Catholics have hope of salvation is ... heretical, and heresy destroys faith. These types of sentiments are precisely what led over the longer term to the destruction of Catholic soteriology and ultimately Catholic ecclesiology. No one said it was a question of religions indifferentism on the part of OP, as the very fact that the OP was troubled by it indicates very clearly that the issue isn't with him. It has to do with whether the child believes that non-Catholics can be saved and whether it would be opportune to raise the issue given the child's age, temperament, the relationship between OP and the child, how it's anticipated that the child would react, etc. But in principle, this has nothing at all to do with "wasting prayer" but about whether in praying for non-Catholics the child is reinforcing some notion that there can be salvation outside the Church. It's possible that the child either doesn't know that the grandfather was Eastern Orthodox or, if he had heard the term, even understand exactly what that means.
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It would have been good to explain to the child that non-Catholics cannot enter into Heaven, however we do not know the state of someone's soul when he dies. Therefore, if perchance there was a conversion to the True Faith right before the moment of death, then certainly prayers could be offered for the soul.
"Mass cannot be said publicly for a pagan who has died without having given any positive sign of conversion or contrition ; if some such sign was given, it could be said privately, and conditionally on the pagan having died in
the state of grace.
If a heretic or schismatic died after having given signs ofrepentance, Mass may be offered publicly for him ; if he gave no sign of repentance, Mass may be offeredprivately, if no scandal be given. Consequently, a priest may accept stipends and say Masses for a non-Catholic who died firmly adhering to his or her sect, provided there is no scandal and the Mass is said privately. Scandal could be precluded by explaining the true doctrine on the matter. In cases of heretics, schismatics or pagans, who have died without any sign of repentance or conversion, Mass cannot be announced for them on the ground of scandal and indifferentism. But a private Requiem Mass with proper prayers may probably be said, though the proper prayer is usually not added." - H. Davis, SJ, Moral and Pastoral Theology Vol III.
As for the Dimond's assertion of the bishop being censured by the pope, as always, the Dimond's bend and twist reality to support their own twisted theology. The bishop was censured for mentioning the name of a non-Catholic in the Memento of the Canon.. that is PUBLIC prayer as the Mass is an official liturgy of the Church.
If the bishop simply said, "Please pray for the soul of the deceased monarch... may God have mercy on his soul", this would be no problem because this is a PRIVATE admonition to others to pray.
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Well.......anything I say in this reply should not be taken as me arguing a position, because I am merely revealing the movements of my own soul, which, I am sure, is full of illusions.
I don't know what a vessel of destruction is. I've never heard that term before. Of course the term vessel of election was used by our Lord himself, referring to St. Paul. I searched the term 'vessel of destruction' in the Douay, and nothing came up.
I think I have heard it said somewhere in the past that Pilate's wife's visions were from the devil, but that is not determinative for me; it would not change my desire to pray for him.
1. The very first demonic vision came to Eve. She was tricked by it, and sinned against herself and her husband because of it. But in the Exsultet we hear the Church pray, O Happy Fault!
2. All demonic visions are permitted by God to bring about God's own purposes.
3. Peter was certainly being guided by the devil when he suggested to our Lord that He should not go to Jerusalem if that meant His Death. Jesus rebuked him, calling him satan. And yet, consider the grace and instruction that has flowed down to Christians throughout two centuries, as a direct result of the Apostle's temptation.
4. We are often instructed more by temptations - ours and those of others - than by clear acts of virtue.
5. Everything the devil did on Good Friday boomeranged on him, slapped him in the face, increased his humiliation, and lowered his position in Hell. From the standpoint of his soul, Pilate's wife's dream served as a warning to him. It provided him with a kind of light - the devils can tell the truth for nefarious reasons. It was, in fact, a grace that commenced a terrible and grave struggle in Pilate's poor miserable soul. Fr. Groenings has far less sympathy for Pilate than I do. He found him a nasty, prideful profligate. I side more with Jesus, Who loved Pilate. Jesus loved him. Jesus, in that short span, gave Pilate a lifetime of instruction.
Pilate failed in his first test, but so did Peter and the Apostles.
6. What is a vessel of destruction? We don't believe in Calvinistic predestination. We believe in the hope of God's mercy for the worst sinners. What is it?
Thank you for your response, I have considered your points.
As for vessels I had the wrong term - vessels of wrath
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction,
[Romans 9:22]
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One other thought. I pray for dead non-Catholics the same way I pray for living ones. Prayer is outside of time. You can pray that they receive the grace of conversion at the moment of their death. You can pray this hours, days, years, even centuries after their death.
You'll think I'm nuts, but I pray for Pontius Pilate, the poorest slob this world has ever known. Talk about a victim of circuмstances. How many of us would have stood up to that onslaught of persecution? Yes, Pilate was persecuted by the Jєωs. And we know that his wife was touched by grace. Even our Lord encouraged him by telling him his sin was not as great as that of the Jєωs.
I have deep, deep sympathy for Pilate, my countryman. I pray for him, that he repents and confesses the truth before he closes his eyes. I read once on Traditio that he is venerated as a Saint in the East. That gave me much happiness.
Now, none of this is mental fodder for an 8 year old. All he requires for now is that it is a good and holy thing to pray for the dead. When he is older, he will be ready for distinctions and subtleties enough.
He is certainly old enough now to be taught a prayer or two in Latin, and how to practice daily devotions for the Poor Souls. So, you can focus on amping his praxis.
Pax!
I know you didn't ask but praying that someone has a deathbed conversion in the past is like praying someone stops mortally sinning in the past. God is outside of time. Man is not.
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Op here, i will add that I am quite scrupulous and that bis mothers side is Catholic (novus ordo) and fathers side is eastern orthodox.
I could be wrong but, to my understanding it was likely a sin of omission. However being barely over the age of reason and having a schismatic and a Novus Ordo for parents will not incline him to the doctrine. Also, if I were in your position, I cannot say I would take any different course of action.
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Op here, i will add that I am quite scrupulous and that bis mothers side is Catholic (novus ordo) and fathers side is eastern orthodox.
OK, so this is probably why your nephew immediately assumed his grandfather is in Purgatory. The Novus Ordo mother probably also believes this and told him this (I'm surprised he didn't think he was already in Heaven). Although his father is EO, it sounds like he's being raised NO.
I think, as uncle, you did your best in the moment. At some future time, when he is older, you might be able to expound on your initial instruction by teaching him that we pray for the "Catholic" souls in Purgatory. Sometimes we have to make inroads a little at a time if we have the opportunities.
So, I'm not a priest, but I think there is no sin here.