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Author Topic: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No  (Read 2084 times)

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  • most saints say there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (which of course is the ONLY Church but a lot of people think there are thousands and thousands of different "churches")

    Well, the old saints taught that. I don't think JP II did? But i confess i do not know much about him, not as much as i would like

    anyway, here is my own belief on that: I say that the Catholic Church is where salvation is obtained. If someone is saved "outside" the Church it is still b/c of the Catholic Church that he is saved. The person was likely more influenced by the Church than he would care to admit?  And all protestant churches (so called) are in a sense "catholic" b/c if it had not been for the Catholic Church there would have been no Luther, "father of protestantism"

    so all protestants would appear to be something like 1/3 Catholic? But i say 1/3 is insufficient. We are such fallen creatures that we need a supernatural church (sacraments...) to be saved...

    that is what I believe (know)


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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 06:16:31 PM »
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  • most saints say there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (which of course is the ONLY Church but a lot of people think there are thousands and thousands of different "churches")

    Well, the old saints taught that. I don't think JP II did? But i confess i do not know much about him, not as much as i would like

    anyway, here is my own belief on that: I say that the Catholic Church is where salvation is obtained. If someone is saved "outside" the Church it is still b/c of the Catholic Church that he is saved. The person was likely more influenced by the Church than he would care to admit?  And all protestant churches (so called) are in a sense "catholic" b/c if it had not been for the Catholic Church there would have been no Luther, "father of protestantism"

    so all protestants would appear to be something like 1/3 Catholic? But i say 1/3 is insufficient. We are such fallen creatures that we need a supernatural church (sacraments...) to be saved...

    that is what I believe (know)
    No salvation outside the church doesnt mean some salvation outside the church. 


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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #2 on: June 06, 2017, 11:41:43 AM »
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  • most saints say there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

    ALL saints -- it's defined Catholic dogma.

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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #3 on: June 06, 2017, 12:21:09 PM »
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  • Who Shall Ascend
    Fr. James F. Wathan
     
    CHAPTER I - Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
    A. The Dogma of Faith
     
    "There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved." (Pope Innocent 111, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215. Denz. 802.)
     
    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, in the bull, Unam Sanctam, 1302. Denz. 875.)
     
    "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jєωs, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire 'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. 25: 41)., unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the Church's sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ's sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Mansi, Concilia, xxxi, 1739; Pope Eugene IV, in the bull, Cantate Domino, 144 1. Denz. 13 5 1.)
     
    The implications of these pronouncements, taken together, are as follows:
    1. All three of these statements are ex cathedra definitions of the Church and of the Pontiffs who made them.
     
    2. Being ex cathedra definitions, they must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, to attempt to modify or qualify them in any way is to deny them.
     
    3. The doctrine says that only (Roman) Catholics go to Heaven; all others are lost, that is, they do not go to Heaven, but to Hell. All who are inclined to dispute this dogma should have the good sense to realize that if this is not what the words of the definitions mean, the Church would never have promulgated such a position. To give any other meaning to these words is to portray the Church as foolish and ridiculous.
     
    4. The pronouncements indicate that, by divine decree, those only will be saved who are members of the Church when they die. This membership must be formal, real, explicit, and, in those of the (mental) age of reason, deliberate. There is no such thing as "potential" membership in the Church, or "implicit" membership, or "quasi-membership," or "invisible membership," or anything of the kind. Neither can those who are catechumens, that is, those who are preparing to enter the Church, be considered members.
     
    5. Excluded also from this real and necessary membership are those who are unwilling to submit to the religious sovereignty of the Pope, though their faith be otherwise Catholic, and their morals laudable. All this means that the Church establishes the terms of membership within itself and is reasserting them by these decrease and no one else.
     
    6. Similarly, the decrees exclude all exceptions whatsoever, and implied in them is the sanctioning of all subterfuges and excuses such as "invincible ignorance," "good will," "baptism of desire," and the like.
     
    7. Since the aforementioned formula (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) is a doctrine of Catholicity, it is the standard of orthodoxy on the subject of salvation; which is to say, all writers, whether they be saints and/or Doctors, of old or of late, all popes and theologians, of whatever era, and their pronouncements are reliable in their treatment of this subject, if they accept and support it. Their testimony or opinions are useless (at best), if they do not, this regardless of any other contribution they may have made to Catholic erudition. The same must be said of the works of all Catholic writers.
     
    8. Such a dogmatic statement is the most certain knowledge that men have, more certain than metaphysical principles, or mathematical formulas, or historical accounts. It is the revelation and proposition of God Himself.

    9. Such a dogmatic statement is not to be colored, or reduced, or altered, by reference to the Sacred Scriptures. On the contrary, it is in terms of such a statement that all the Scriptures are to be read and understood.'
     
    10. This doctrine is a mystery, as are all the sacred dogmas of the Faith. This means that it cannot be fully understood, nor adequately explained. As with other dogmas, were this truth self evident, or provable, or comprehensible, there would be little reason for the Church to define it.
     
    11. The negative tenor of these definitions is to warn that any word, or artifice, or attentuation, which relieves every individual of the human race from the obligation of joining the Roman Catholic Church is condemned as contrary to divine prescription.
     
    12. Let the reader accept the reasonable fact that the Pontiffs who pronounced these decrees were perfectly literate and fully cognizant of what they were saying. If there were any need to soften or qualify their meanings, they were quite capable of doing so. They were not regarded as heretics or fanatics at the time of their pronouncements, and have never been labelled such by the Church to this very day. It is an easy thing for the people of this "enlightened" age to fall into the modern delusion that the men of former times, especially those of the Middle Ages, were not as bright as we are, so that they sometimes said they knew not what.
    13. The dates of these definitions are extremely important. They mark the time when the Church terminated speculation and discussion among theologians on the subject of the conditions of salvation. All writings on this subject, therefore, which predate these definitions have value only in so far as they corroborate these definitions.
     
    14. The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is described as fundamental or "'foundational" to Catholic theology. It is called the "Dogma of Faith," because, of a truth, unless a person accepts it in all its momentous absoluteness, he really does not accept the Catholic Faith, howsoever he protests that he does. Conversely, he who dilutes this doctrine to any degree, so radically distorts the Faith that he renders it null and void, and his own faith in the bargain. For he who denies this doctrine makes Catholicity hardly more than a nicety, as if membership in the Church were like the first class compartment on a commercial airliner, in which the majority of others will arrive at the same destination, really none the worse for their second class transport.
     
    15. Almost everybody who writes or comments on this subject explains the doctrine by explaining it away, as we shall see further on. He begins by affirming the truth of the axiom, Extra Ecclesiam, etc., and ends by denying it while continuing to insist vigorously that he is not doing so. He seems to think it a clever thing to state the formula, then to weasel out of it. What he ought to do is one of two things: either admit that he does not believe this dogma (and also in the same breath, that he does not believe in the Dogma of the Church's lnfallibility); or he should allow for the possibility that there is something about the Catholic Doctrine of Salvation of which he is unaware, or which he refuses to accept, or has been misled into denying.
     
    16. The doctrine determines who has good will and who has bad will. Those who have bad will are in the state of sin. In rejecting of God's accredited word and work, they reveal their true selves: They choose not to be among those of whom Christ spoke when he said: "I know mine, and mine know me." (Jn. 10: 14). When it is responded that certain individuals do not know that what they are hearing is God's word, the reply is: What is being said demands that careful inquiry be made. If the inquiry is made with the disposition of humility, integrity, and courage, the inquirer will find that the word cannot be denied. No argument or evidence has ever been discovered a which will leave the honest man free of the revealed word's imperative
     
     

     

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 12:27:04 PM »
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  • Quote
    "The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches, that none of those who are not within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jєωs, heretics and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but are to go into the eternal fire 'prepared for the devil, and his angels' (Mt. 25: 41)., unless before the close of their lives they shall have entered into that Church; also that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is such that the Church's sacraments avail only those abiding in that Church, and that fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of piety which play their part in the Christian combat are in her alone productive of eternal rewards; moreover, that no one, no matter what alms he may have given, not even if he were to shed his blood for Christ's sake, can be saved unless he abide in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Mansi, Concilia, xxxi, 1739; Pope Eugene IV, in the bull, Cantate Domino, 144 1. Denz. 13 5 1.)
    Rather than saying that there is no salvation outside of the Church, I prefer to post this dogmatic decree. Anyone that thinks that someone can be saved by their "good" works or intentions should read this carefully. I ask, what good works could even come close to shedding ones blood for Christ? And yet, those pagans, Jєωs, heretics and schismatics, who shed their blood for Christ can ever be partakers of eternal life.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #5 on: June 06, 2017, 02:14:12 PM »
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  • No salvation outside the church doesnt mean some salvation outside the church.
    as written, your comment makes no sense
    But I kinda get it
    some are accidentally saved or what have you. I do believe that those who undergo what the protesters call "born again" are capable of understanding Christ's Words.. and b/c of that, they will eventually be led into the Catholic Church. If they resist the Church and stay out of it, that shows they are not listening to the Holy Spirit and so... long stint in Purgatory at best...

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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #6 on: June 06, 2017, 02:16:06 PM »
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  • THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Sorry to yell, but it is the plain truth.

    Now, the Catholic Church also says that CONVERSION to the true faith can exist where mankind cannot discern it, but only God can. This is what is called "baptism of the desire" and it does NOT mean that a mere human "desire" for baptism suffices. It means that there can be a baptism by the grace of God, for select souls that truly have the RARE perfect love and contrition....which is the essence of conversion to the ONE true faith.
    I got a lot out of this and it makes sense. But I think what needs to be added is that it is VERY rare and very difficult for someone to have or consistently act on this baptism of desire stuff

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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #7 on: June 06, 2017, 02:17:13 PM »
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  • ALL saints -- it's defined Catholic dogma.
    some saints, meaning the ones who speak on the topic at all. Not all saints have spoken on that topic, at least that can be presumed. Some saints never wrote anything... 


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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #8 on: June 06, 2017, 02:20:40 PM »
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  • 4. The pronouncements indicate that, by divine decree, those only will be saved who are members of the Church when they die. This membership must be formal, real, explicit, and, in those of the (mental) age of reason, deliberate. There is no such thing as "potential" membership in the Church, or "implicit" membership, or "quasi-membership," or "invisible membership," or anything of the kind. Neither can those who are catechumens, that is, those who are preparing to enter the Church, be considered members.
     
    now just wait a cotton pickin minute here!

    That is illogical, that those who are planning to enter the Church are damned b/c they are not actually there yet. They have every intention of joining the Church, so I am 99% sure God does not hold it against them that the Church has not, as it were, gotten around to giving them membership yet.

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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #9 on: June 06, 2017, 02:23:21 PM »
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  • Rather than saying that there is no salvation outside of the Church, I prefer to post this dogmatic decree. Anyone that thinks that someone can be saved by their "good" works or intentions should read this carefully. I ask, what good works could even come close to shedding ones blood for Christ? And yet, those pagans, Jєωs, heretics and schismatics, who shed their blood for Christ can ever be partakers of eternal life.
    I disagree. If they shed their blood for JEsus they are NOT Jєωs, pagans, etc...
    dying for Jesus would seem to be the ultimate proof of belief in and adherence to the Words of Christ... I disagree until shown a legitimate reason not to

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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #10 on: June 06, 2017, 08:19:08 PM »
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  • The Most Precious Blood of Jesus Christ, is in "ALL" Sacraments.  When you die, God is looking for the "White Robe", God is looking for His Son's Precious Blood.  If you are not with this garment, you do not enter.


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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #11 on: June 06, 2017, 08:46:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    Rather than saying that there is no salvation outside of the Church, I prefer to post this dogmatic decree. Anyone that thinks that someone can be saved by their "good" works or intentions should read this carefully. I ask, what good works could even come close to shedding ones blood for Christ? And yet, those pagans, Jєωs, heretics and schismatics, who shed their blood for Christ can ever be partakers of eternal life.

    I disagree. If they shed their blood for Jesus they are NOT Jєωs, pagans, etc...
    dying for Jesus would seem to be the ultimate proof of belief in and adherence to the Words of Christ... I disagree until shown a legitimate reason not to
    Then you are disagreeing with the pope who dogmatically declared it. Read what Fr. Wathan said above, you are in denial for some reason.
    Here's some things to think about:
    1) Nobody comes to Christ unless Christ gives them the grace, gives them everything. Without Me you can do nothing. Every step is given by Christ.
    2) No one dies unless God takes them.
    What you are painting above is a Christ who gave a Jєω or pagan the grace to die for Christ, yet He took the man's life before He sent a person to pour water over his head and say I baptized you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are in the vortex of confusion.
    St. Augustine on the Errors of Pelagius said:
    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #12 on: June 06, 2017, 08:47:50 PM »
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  • St. Augustine on the Errors of Pelagius said:

    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #13 on: June 13, 2017, 04:14:45 PM »
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  • St. Augustine on the Errors of Pelagius said:
    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.
    i disagree w/ St Augustine. And there is nothing in Church teaching that says you have to accept as irrefutable Truth everything a saint says.
    For one thing, why use so many words to say something?
    But anyhow, God's will is violated ALL THE TIME... so why would it be so surprising and unheard of, etc... for someone to not be baptized? It is presumed God wants ALL baptized, yet obviously not all are.. 
    no logic in that saying by Augustine that i can see... nope

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    Re: Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? Saints say No
    « Reply #14 on: June 25, 2017, 06:17:05 PM »
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  • no reply to that last post

    So there is no argument :) 

    St Augustine is either not right (need to read him,  I know) or he hasn't explained himself well