Author Topic: Is it wrong to believe this about hell? (Read 9680 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #61 on:** March 31, 2017, 04:04:24 AM »

Quote from: Anonymous on March 30, 2017, 09:17:25 PM

bump

Bump for what?
The OP apparently chooses to reject what the the Church, Her saints, and Fathers - even what Christ Himself preached about hell, choosing instead to accept the liberals' idea that God, being the kindly old grandfather that He is, could not possibly condemn people who've transgressed His laws with an eternity of fire and pain.
No different than the way 99% of the world thinks.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #62 on:** March 31, 2017, 11:18:45 AM »

While it is true God wills the salvation of all in one sense, in another sense he does not.

Antecedently, before any consideration of anyone's actions, God does will all men to be saved.

But consequently, in light of his knowledge of the unrepentant sin of man, he chooses only to bring some to salvation and not all.

Those whom he had chosen from eternity to save are the elect.

Those he has chosen to allow to damn themselves are the reprobate.

All those who are saved are saved purely by the graciousness of God and all those who are damned are damned on account of their own sinfulness, having fixed their will on sin and refusing to turn away from it.

Now at the end of time, God wills to manifest his glory. Part of that means to manifest his justice and his mercy. His justice will be made manifest in most, for few are saved, and his mercy will be made manifest in the elect, for God owes no man heaven and all from conception deserve hell.

Read Romans 9.

Mercyandjustice · « **Reply #63 on:** April 01, 2017, 06:12:38 PM »

Quote from: Nadir on March 30, 2017, 05:16:57 AM

Why do you specify "malice". God hates not only "malice"; He also hates indifference, selfishness, gluttony, luxury, and lukewarmness.
Apocalypse (Revelation) 3:16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.
You realise, don't you Mercyand justice, that you can go into the eternal fire, not only for those sins committed "with malice in our hearts", but for the things that we have omitted doing:
Matthew 24 [41 - 46] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Then why don't you simply trust God, without going against what He and His Holy Church teaches us?

I did not accuse you of being a heretic, although some of the things you are saying here are heretical. You say yourself that you could go any one of four ways and three of those ways will certainly lead you to hell. You seem to be a very confused young man, and the level of your culpability is for God to judge.
I asked before, but you didn't answer me. You just keep going over the same ground and there is no breakthrough.
But I am asking you again now. How is your prayer life? Do you pray the Rosary?
Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, for thou alone have destroyed all heresies. Thou believed the word of the Archangel Gabriel. A virgin still, thou brought forth the God-man; thou bore a Child, O Virgin, and remained a Virgin still. Mother of God, intercede for us.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary5.htm

Indifference, selfishness, etc is malice. Lukewarm people are people who have had the truth sufficiently preached to them and who do nothing with that knowledge. AKA, they (from our point of view) prefer themselves. Also, Jesus refers to those who refuse to feed, clothe and all that out of contempt for their neighbor. Not everyone can feed and clothe others. So there is still malice in their somewhere I guess. Also, I still need someone to tell me of my personal view (only some people who dont end up in heaven actually 'burn' and suffer in hell.) hell would be heretical. I don't see how, since Jesus Himself tells us that comfort is possible in hell. I think the main issue here is the dogmatic view of the afterlife in western Christianity combined with my desire to know everything. I know in the east it is more vague, which I like more sometimes.
And my prayer life is fine. Some days I pray, others I pray only at night. I don't pray the Rosary much and I find myself praying chaplets more. Especially the Chaplet of Mercy and Holy Wounds chaplet.

Mercyandjustice · « **Reply #64 on:** April 02, 2017, 03:14:10 PM »

Quote

Philosophical questions about the existence of evil have been the bane of Christian thinkers for centuries. That’s because the objections that skeptics pose against our faith are unanswerable from a traditional standpoint.
Take the h0Ɩ0cαųst, for example. From the traditional perspective, Jєωιѕн people went through the nightmare of Auschwitz — with its gas ovens, starvation and torture — only to pass on to an infinitely worse fate when they finally died. Is this assertion part of a doctrine that we can possibly deem “the good news”?
Look at the agony in the world that encompasses us. For the universalist, it is a part of our soul-making process. We learn goodness through the things we suffer. When we pass into the final state of perfection, we will all say that it was worth the pain (however unlikely this may seem now). Paul wrote, “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18) Universalists hope for a day when all mankind will see life from that perspective.
The traditionalist cannot even hope for such a thing. For the overwhelming majority of humanity, throughout all ages, existence will offer no meaning. Multitudes will be born, live a life of acute suffering and then die — only to be dispatched to an existence of perpetual anguish.
Annihilationists advance their position here as a worthy alternative. But their hypothesis also fails to identify any purpose or meaning in the lives of millions. A nonchristian woman grows up in a poor Ethiopian village. She is ravaged with hunger. Loved ones all around her succuмb to pestilence and malnutrition. Finally, she dies. When Jesus returns from heaven, he raises her, then sets her ablaze. She is extinct forever. What was the point of her life? Nothing. It was tragically absurd and meaningless.

Thought provoking insight from a universalist website. This is how I feel a lot of times. How would a traditionalist answer the problem of pain?

Mercyandjustice · « **Reply #65 on:** April 02, 2017, 03:35:42 PM »

These things Jesus spoke; and raising His eyes to heaven, he said, "Father, the hour has come! Glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son may glorify Thee, even as Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, in order that to all Thou hast given Him He may give everlasting life, that they may know Thee, the only True God, and Him whom Thou hast sent, Jesus Christ. ---St John 17:1-4

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #66 on:** April 02, 2017, 03:43:27 PM »

Quote from: Mercyandjustice on April 02, 2017, 03:14:10 PM

Thought provoking insight from a universalist website. This is how I feel a lot of times. How would a traditionalist answer the problem of pain?

Our lives are meant to manifest God's glory for his own sake. For the damned they show forth the glory of his justice, for the saved they show forth the glory of his mercy, so that every life in every fate and every condition is oriented to the glory of God, whether they like it or not.

Nadir · « **Reply #67 on:** April 02, 2017, 04:16:47 PM »

Take the h0Ɩ0cαųst, for example. From the traditional perspective, Jєωιѕн people went through the nightmare of Auschwitz — with its gas ovens, starvation and torture — only to pass on to an infinitely worse fate when they finally died. Is this assertion part of a doctrine that we can possibly deem “the good news”?

Ah! Do you not know that Jєωιѕн people have ample proof and opportunity to accept Jesus as the Messiah and Saviour, but they refuse? They reject Him. You cannot blame their rejection of Jesus Christ on ignorance.

So you persist in imbibing heretical nonsense from these people who have no understanding of the Church and what She teaches.

I notice that you changed your signature because instead of four possible ways you have added another 5th way, i.e. The Eastern Christians have a more vague view of the afterlife.

You have replaced it with a falsehood: Pain is never permanent. Strange! Hell is pain and hell is permanent. Therefore pain can be permanent

I cannot answer other issues right now and if no one else does I may get back to it later if I have the time.

shin · « **Reply #68 on:** April 02, 2017, 04:38:08 PM »

'Venial sin becomes mortal sin when one approves it as an end. . .'

St. Thomas Aquinas

'There is a sin which is always "unto death" (1 John 5:16): the sin for which we do not repent. For this sin even a saint's prayers will not be heard.'

St. Mark the Ascetic

'St. Augustine and St. Thomas define mortal sin to be a turning away from God: that is, the turning of one's back upon God, leaving the Creator for the sake of the creature.

What punishment would that subject deserve who, while his king was giving him a command, contemptuously turned his back upon him to go and transgress his orders? This is what the sinner does; and this is punished in hell with the pain of loss, that is, the loss of God, a punishment richly deserved by him who in this life turns his back upon his sovereign good.'

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

'This I say, because God showed me somewhat of his truth, in order that I might know what man is without him; that is, when the soul is found in mortal sin, at that time, it is so monstrous and horrible to behold, that it is impossible to imagine anything equally so.'

St. Catherine of Genoa

'Without sanctifying grace it is not possible to refrain long from mortal sin.'

St. Thomas Aquinas

Yes, dear reader, before your Baptism you were a member of Satan, and now you are a member of Jesus Christ; you were a child of the devil, and now you are the child of God; you were a base associate of Satan, and you have become the sacred spouse of the Holy Ghost; you were the inheritor of the pains of hell, and now you are the heir of heaven; you were separated from your God, and you are united to him in most intimate union. Behold what you are, if you have still preserved the grace of your Baptism.

But, alas! if you have lost it through mortal sin, the holy union which you contracted with God is broken.'

St. Jean Eudes

'I repeat it; all works, without the help of grace are dead, being produced by the creature only; but grace aids all works performed by those who are not in mortal sin, and makes them worthy of heaven; not those which are ours solely, but those in which grace cooperates.'

St. Catherine of Genoa

- Some quotes for reflection on mortal sin.

To go to Heaven we have to live a supernatural life, not a natural life. It's not simply a matter of being bad enough to go to Hell, it's a matter of being good enough to go to Heaven. Nature cannot rise above nature. All the works of people on a natural level are at that same fallen level.

Some people only have faith on a natural level, the same for hope, the same for charity. But all three are required on a supernatural level, that level that shows union with Christ. Faith is precious.

'Human language cannot express the beauty of a soul which dies in a state of grace.'

St. Philip Neri

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #69 on:** April 02, 2017, 04:46:46 PM »

Quote

Our lives are meant to manifest God's glory for his own sake. For the damned they show forth the glory of his justice, for the saved they show forth the glory of his mercy, so that every life in every fate and every condition is oriented to the glory of God, whether they like it or not.

Yes, there are things that are more valuable than pain. God's gifts, life itself..

Mercyandjustice · « **Reply #70 on:** April 02, 2017, 05:57:15 PM »

Quote from: Nadir on April 02, 2017, 04:16:47 PM

Take the h0Ɩ0cαųst, for example. From the traditional perspective, Jєωιѕн people went through the nightmare of Auschwitz — with its gas ovens, starvation and torture — only to pass on to an infinitely worse fate when they finally died. Is this assertion part of a doctrine that we can possibly deem “the good news”?

Ah! Do you not know that Jєωιѕн people have ample proof and opportunity to accept Jesus as the Messiah and Saviour, but they refuse? They reject Him. You cannot blame their rejection of Jesus Christ on ignorance.

So you persist in imbibing heretical nonsense from these people who have no understanding of the Church and what She teaches.

I notice that you changed your signature because instead of four possible ways you have added another 5th way, i.e. The Eastern Christians have a more vague view of the afterlife.

You have replaced it with a falsehood: Pain is never permanent. Strange! Hell is pain and hell is permanent. Therefore pain can be permanent

I cannot answer other issues right now and if no one else does I may get back to it later if I have the time.

But it is definitely possible that at least some were inculpably ignorant of Christ and therefore "rejected" Him. When I think of "rejection" I think of pushing something or someone away maliciously. If a Jєωιѕн person is born and raised in a Jєωιѕн home, and knows next to nothing of Christ and His message, then how could he be grievously punished? That seems totally unfair. The problem with the traditional view, at least from my P.O.V., of hell and heaven is that it fails to take into account just how varied this world is. The theologuans and saints of the past lived in societies where everyone was under the Church's control. So this mentality of only two possible categories, totally good and totally bad, made sense to them. But now in this age of information, now that we see how different every single person is; it seems that not everyone is totally wicked and totally righteous. Not everyone is on the extreme north and south pole. There is an entire world in between, with differing amounts of goodness and badness. Everyones experiences, sins, good deeds vary much in culpability, malice, etc. That is not to say that the traditional view is necessarily wrong, but rather that there are many things about the afterlife and God's judgments that we know nothing of. And the whole thing about works without sanctifying grace. That may be true, but why does having no grace suddenly mean everlasting fire? What if the person is inculpably without grace? I can understand that heaven is the extraordinary end of man, but again, why does the ordinary end (hell) have to be so dreadful? Why cant a portion, or even most of hell be a paradise, like Christ said on the cross? I can understand it being dreadful for the truly wicked, for those in mortal sin. But how many who dont make it to heaven are truly wicked? How many are in mortal sin? I don't know. But millions, probably hundreds of millions, BILLIONS have died/will die ignorant of Christ and His message. Not because they were preached to of it and said "No, I don't want it, it is useless." But simply because they never received a chance. Even people born here, in the U.S.! Or any other modern nation! Why can't those who never received a chance be preached to in the afterlife? And why can't only a portion of the place called "hell" be full of eternal suffering for those who are truly 100 percent wicked? One has to be 100 percent perfect to enter the glories of heaven. Therefore it only makes sense that ONLY those who are 100 percent truly wicked can suffer any sort of eternal fire in a certain area of hell. If Universal Restoration isn't a thing, that is.

And the quote is apparently from St. Teresa of Avila.

"We all die, and like waters that return no more, we fall down into the Earth: neither will God have a soul to perish, but recalleth, meaning that he that is cast off should not altogether perish-- 2 Kings (2 Samuel) 14:14

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #71 on:** April 02, 2017, 11:10:25 PM »

Quote from: Mercyandjustice on April 02, 2017, 05:57:15 PM

But it is definitely possible that at least some were inculpably ignorant of Christ and therefore "rejected" Him. When I think of "rejection" I think of pushing something or someone away maliciously. If a Jєωιѕн person is born and raised in a Jєωιѕн home, and knows next to nothing of Christ and His message, then how could he be grievously punished? That seems totally unfair. The problem with the traditional view, at least from my P.O.V., of hell and heaven is that it fails to take into account just how varied this world is. The theologuans and saints of the past lived in societies where everyone was under the Church's control. So this mentality of only two possible categories, totally good and totally bad, made sense to them. But now in this age of information, now that we see how different every single person is; it seems that not everyone is totally wicked and totally righteous. Not everyone is on the extreme north and south pole. There is an entire world in between, with differing amounts of goodness and badness. Everyones experiences, sins, good deeds vary much in culpability, malice, etc. That is not to say that the traditional view is necessarily wrong, but rather that there are many things about the afterlife and God's judgments that we know nothing of. And the whole thing about works without sanctifying grace. That may be true, but why does having no grace suddenly mean everlasting fire? What if the person is inculpably without grace? I can understand that heaven is the extraordinary end of man, but again, why does the ordinary end (hell) have to be so dreadful? Why cant a portion, or even most of hell be a paradise, like Christ said on the cross? I can understand it being dreadful for the truly wicked, for those in mortal sin. But how many who dont make it to heaven are truly wicked? How many are in mortal sin? I don't know. But millions, probably hundreds of millions, BILLIONS have died/will die ignorant of Christ and His message. Not because they were preached to of it and said "No, I don't want it, it is useless." But simply because they never received a chance. Even people born here, in the U.S.! Or any other modern nation! Why can't those who never received a chance be preached to in the afterlife? And why can't only a portion of the place called "hell" be full of eternal suffering for those who are truly 100 percent wicked? One has to be 100 percent perfect to enter the glories of heaven. Therefore it only makes sense that ONLY those who are 100 percent truly wicked can suffer any sort of eternal fire in a certain area of hell. If Universal Restoration isn't a thing, that is.

And the quote is apparently from St. Teresa of Avila.

"We all die, and like waters that return no more, we fall down into the Earth: neither will God have a soul to perish, but recalleth, meaning that he that is cast off should not altogether perish-- 2 Kings (2 Samuel) 14:14

You ought to go ahead and read these 2 articles from the pre-Vatican II Catholic Encyclopedia:
HELL
CONSCIENCE

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #72 on:** April 02, 2017, 11:13:41 PM »

Those 2 articles will answer all your questions.

But be honest and read it all.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #73 on:** April 02, 2017, 11:55:32 PM »

OP,

Isn't it ironic that, here you are, complaining on behalf of all those people who don't know the truth and (so you think, erroneously) will be condemned on that score and yet, YOU have the truth staring right at you in the face, and yet you still REJECT it? How do you explain that? In which case, "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them." -2 Peter 2:21

You have stated many untrue things. The Church has never taught that people will be damned for being truly invincibly ignorant about Our Lord Jesus Christ. And you also forget that God has written His law on the hearts of every single person, and even if they are utterly ignorant natives in faraway lands with no contact with the world, they still have a conscience, and they can still either reject or obey God's law, and if they choose to obey, God will give them further graces to come to the truth and be saved. If they reject it they will be condemned and it will not be due to their not knowing about Our Lord but because they chose to commit some other sin.

And where did you get the idea that the Church teaches that either people are 100% good or bad? I've never heard such a thing. You really ought to read a moral theology book to find out just how many degrees of evil/sin there are, and how many distinctions and excusing causes there are. Most of what you say is just outright false.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #74 on:** April 02, 2017, 11:58:22 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on March 14, 2017, 01:31:41 PM

Surprise, surprise -- GLSector doesn't belong here!

Who'da thunk it?

A lot of people, I'm sure...

Needless to say, GLSector has been banned for insolence.

He is a sad example of a person damaged and brainwashed by the modern world, with all its errors. He has a very slim chance of saving his soul. I was hoping to keep him around so he would learn something about Tradition -- I figured it would be for his own good. But I think he's contaminated CathInfo enough. May God have mercy on him.

Which post was his? Did you delete it? I don't recall reading anything that sounded like it was from him.

Author Topic: Is it wrong to believe this about hell? (Read 9680 times)

Änσnymσus

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

Stubborn

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

Änσnymσus

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

Mercyandjustice

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

Mercyandjustice

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

Mercyandjustice

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

Änσnymσus

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

Nadir

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

shin

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Änσnymσus

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Mercyandjustice

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

Änσnymσus

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

Änσnymσus

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

Änσnymσus

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?

Disputaciones

Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?