Is it wrong to believe that, of the 'majority' that doesn't make it to heaven, a good 'chunk' of that population doesn't suffer much, if at all, in hell? Perhaps they go to a place like limbo or limbo itself. Perhaps there is a temporary suffering in hell for some souls and then they are admitted into a non suffering 'part' of hell...or something.
Is it wrong to believe that, of the 'majority' that doesn't make it to heaven, a good 'chunk' of that population doesn't suffer much, if at all, in hell? Perhaps they go to a place like limbo or limbo itself. Perhaps there is a temporary suffering in hell for some souls and then they are admitted into a non suffering 'part' of hell...or something. I've just been feeling so utterly depressed and desparate over many things lately. I've also been thinking about all of the suffering in this world. :when i was younger, i could have written the same thing (will read the rest of your post later)
Many of the saints say VERY few (Jesus said few) do not make it.
Some people can't even do the minimal requirement of being christian..
This is the OP, and I wanna say thanks for the replies. Honestly, I feel like I'm slowly descending into disbelief. Maybe deist or agnostic or some other. I still believe in God, and I still kind of believe in the afterlife, but really I'm just losing faith in Catholicism's view of God and heaven and hell and all that. I mean, what if Christianity is just another religion? Like islam or something. I've always had problems with the whole EENS idea. I read that God wills all men to be saved, yet why doesn't He give a clear and concise path to all men then? He allows so many to remain in ignorance and suffering. Then just damns them to the fire? I know the traditional christian idea that heaven is not a right, it's only a gift, no one deserves it; but still, why does the alternate have to be so terrible?
You don't have to be a poster boy for evil, like Adolf Hitler has become (thanks to the Jєωιѕн media his evil is exaggerated to be the worst in history or some such nonsense). You don't have to be a notorious dictator like Stalin or Pol Pot to go to Hell and suffer great pains there.
The souls of those who die in mortal sin, or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments. (Denz. 464)
But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.” (Sixth Session, 6 July 1439, Pope Eugenius presiding; Denz. 693)
...Yes, but hell is NOT monolithic.
I'm actually with OP on this one. I think that there are a significant number of people in hell whose actually sufferings, apart from the pain of loss, are relatively mild. This is a permissible opinion based on what was taught by the Council of Florence.
Veronica Lueken
Apparitions of the Damned from Hell
In Chapter 16 of the Gospel of Luke, Jesus tells a parable on Hell. A rich man who has died and is in Hell pleads with God to send the poor man Lazarus, who has gone to Heaven, back from the dead to warn his five brothers that Hell really exists. God replies: "If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead." However, God is so merciful that He has reportedly allowed certain of the damned in Hell to return to earth to witness to others that there truly is a place of eternal suffering - Hell - for those who disobey God and His commandments. Here are two examples of many such occurrences, docuмented in the annals of private revelation.
http://www.tldm.org/News8/RealityOfHell.htm
Guest said:
This is the OP, and I wanna say thanks for the replies. Honestly, I feel like I'm slowly descending into disbelief. Maybe deist or agnostic or some other. I still believe in God, and I still kind of believe in the afterlife, but really I'm just losing faith in Catholicism's view of God and heaven and hell and all that. I mean, what if Christianity is just another religion? Like islam or something. I've always had problems with the whole EENS idea. I read that God wills all men to be saved, yet why doesn't He give a clear and concise path to all men then? He allows so many to remain in ignorance and suffering. Then just damns them to the fire? I know the traditional christian idea that heaven is not a right, it's only a gift, no one deserves it; but still, why does the alternate have to be so terrible?
I'm actually with OP on this one. I think that there are a significant number of people in hell whose actually sufferings, apart from the pain of loss, are relatively mild. This is a permissible opinion based on what was taught by the Council of Florence.
Is it wrong to believe that, of the 'majority' that doesn't make it to heaven, a good 'chunk' of that population doesn't suffer much, if at all, in hell? Perhaps they go to a place like limbo or limbo itself. Perhaps there is a temporary suffering in hell for some souls and then they are admitted into a non suffering 'part' of hell...
This unusual narrative recounts the revelations of a lost soul to a former acquaintance. It is a powerful record of the steps which led a young woman to lose her soul in Hell for all eternity.
Although it has several times been printed with imprimatur, this in itself does not guarantee the authenticity of the story.
An imprimatur merely indicates that the subject matter is free from error in faith and morals.
Is it true?
Obviously, it cannot be "guaranteed" because the only evidence is that of the girl herself.
It certainly may be true and its instructional qualities would pertain even if the story itself were not true.
In the July apparition at Fatima a vision of a Hell of fire was given to the three little children, and significantly, its existence was confirmed by the great public miracle on October 13th.
Yet Hell is little spoken of in the pulpits. Because of this, the special intervention of Heaven, may, as at Fatima, be necessary to restore this sobering doctrine to its important place in Christian dogma.
It is well to remember that the Hell spoken of here is the Hell which has a significant place in Catholic doctrine, the Hell described vividly by Christ Himself, the Hell seen in all its livid horror by the children at Fatima on July 13th, 1917.
The names of persons and places are omitted because of the nature of the story, plus the fact of its recent origin.
----------------------------------------------
Clara and Annette, both single Catholics in their early twenties, worked adjacent to each other as employees of a commercial firm in Germany. Although they were never very close friends, they shared a courteous mutual regard which led to an exchange of ideas and, eventually, of confidences. Clara professed herself openly religious, and felt it her duty to instruct and admonish Annette when the latter appeared excessively casual or superficial in religious matters.
In due course, Annette married and left the firm. The year was 1937. Clara spent the autumn of that year on holiday at Lake Garda. About the middle of September she received a letter from her mother. "Annette . . . is dead. She was the victim of an auto accident and was buried yesterday at Wald-Friedhof."
Clara was frightened since she knew her friend was not very religious. Was she prepared to appear before God? Dying suddenly, what had happened to her?
The next day she attended Mass, received Holy Communion, and prayed fervently for her friend. The following night, at ten minutes after midnight, the vision took place. . .
"Clara, do not pray for me! I am in hell. If I tell you this and speak at length about it, do not think it is because of our friendship. We here do not love anyone. I do this as under constraint. In truth, I should like to see you to come to this state where I must remain forever."
"Perhaps that angers you, but here we all think that way. Our wills are hardened in evil - in what you call evil. Even when we do something 'good', as I do now, opening your eyes about hell, it is not because of a good intention."
"Do you still remember our first meeting four years ago at. . .? You were then 23 and had been there already half a year. Because I was a beginner, you gave me some helpful advice. Then I praised your love of your neighbor. Ridiculous! Your help was mere coquetry. Here we do not acknowledge any good - in anybody."
"Do you remember what I told you about my youth? Now I am painfully compelled to fill in some of the gaps."
"According to the plan of my parents, I should not have existed. A misfortune brought about my conception. My two sisters were 14 and 15 when I was born."
"Would that I had never existed! Would that I could now annihilate myself! Escape these tortures! No pleasure would equal that with which I would abandon my existence, as a garment of ashes which is lost in nothingness. But I must continue to exist as I chose to make myself - as a ruined person."
"When father and mother, still young, left the country for the city, they had lost touch with the Church and were keeping company with irreligious people. They had met at a dance, and after a year and a half of companionship they 'had' to get married."
"As a result of the nuptial ceremony, so much holy water remained on them that my mother attended Sunday Mass a couple of times a year. But she never taught me to pray. Instead, she was completely taken up with the daily cares of life, although our situation was not bad."
"I refer to prayer, Mass, religious instruction, holy water, church with a very strong repugnance. I hate all that, as I hate those who go to church, and in general every human being and everything."
"From a great many things do we receive torture. Every knowledge received at the hour of death, every remembrance of things lived or known is for us, a piercing flame. In each remembrance, good and bad, we see the way in which was present - the grace we despised or ignored. What a torture is this! We do not eat, we do not sleep, we do not walk. Chained, with howling and gnashing of teeth, we look appalled at our ruined life, hating and suffering. Do you hear? We here drink hatred like water. Above all we hate God. With reluctance do I force myself to make you understand."
"The blessed in heaven must love God because they see Him without veil, in all His dazzling beauty. That makes their bliss indescribable. We know this and the knowledge makes us furious. Men on earth, who know God from nature and from revelation, can love Him, but they are not compelled to do so. The believer - I say this with gnashing of teeth - who contemplates Christ on the cross, with arms extended, will end by loving Him."
"But he whom God approaches only in the final storm, as punisher, as just avenger, because he was rejected by Him, such a person cannot but hate Him with all the strength of his wicked will. We died with willful resolve to be separated from God. Do you now understand why hell lasts forever! It is because our wills were fixed for eternity at the moment of death. We had made our final choice. Our obstinacy will never leave us. Under compulsion, I must add that God is merciful even towards us. I affirm many things against my will and must choke the torrent of abuses I should like to vomit out."
"God was merciful to us by not allowing our wicked wills to exhaust themselves on earth, as we should have been prepared to do. This would have increased our faults and our pains. He caused us to die before our time, as in my case, or had other mitigating circuмstances intervene. Now He shows Himself merciful towards us by not compelling a closer approach than that afforded in this remote inferno. Every step bringing us closer to God would cause us a greater pain than that which a step closer to a burning furnace would cause you."
"You were scared when once, during a walk, I told you that my father, a few days before my first Communion, had told me: 'My little Annette, the main thing is your beautiful white dress, all the rest is just make-believe.' Because of your concern, I was almost ashamed. Now I sneer at it."
"The important thing is that we were not allowed to receive Communion until the age of 12. By then I was already absorbed in worldly amusements and found it easy to set aside, without scruple, the things of religion. Thus, I attached no great importance to my first Communion. We are furious that many children go to Communion at the age of seven. We do all we can to make people believe that children have insufficient knowledge at that age. They must first commit some mortal sins. Then the white Particle will not do so much damage to our cause as when faith, hope, and charity - oh, these things! - received in Baptism, are still alive in their hearts."
"Marta K - and you induced me to enter "The Association of the Young Ladies." The games were amusing. As you know, I immediately took a directive part. I liked it. I also like the picnics. I even let myself be induced to go to confession and communion sometimes."
"Once you warned me, 'Anne, if you do not pray, you go to perdition.' I used to pray very little indeed, and even this unwillingly. You were then only too right. All those who burn in hell did not pray or did not pray enough."
"Prayer is the first step towards God. And it is the decisive step. Especially prayer to her who is the Mother of Christ, whose name we never pronounce. Devotion to her rescues from the devil numberless souls whom sin would infallibly give to him."
"I continue my story, consumed with rage and only because I have to. To pray is the easiest thing man can do on earth. And God has tied up the salvation of each one exactly to this very easy thing."
"To him who prays with perseverance little by little God gives so much light, so much strength, that even the most debased sinner will at the end come back to salvation. During the last years of my life I did not pray any more, so I lacked those graces without which nobody can be saved. Here we no longer receive graces. Moreover, should we receive them we would cynically refuse them. All the fluctuations of earthly existence have ceased in the other life. For years I was living far away from God. For, in the last call of grace I decided against God."
"I never believed in the influence of the devil. And now I affirm that he has strong influence on the persons who are in the condition in which I was then. Only many prayers, others and mine own, united with sacrifices and penances, could have snatched me from his grip. And even this only little by little. If there are only few externally obsessed, there are very many internally possessed. The devil cannot steal the free will from those who give themselves to his influence. But in punishment of their, so to speak, methodical apostasy from God, He allows the devil to nest in them."
"I hate the devil too. And yet I am pleased about him, because he tries to ruin all of you; he and his satellites, the fallen with him at the beginning of time. There are millions of them. They roam around the earth, as thick as a swarm of flies, and you do not even notice it. It is not reserved to us damned to tempt you; but to the fallen spirits. In truth every time they drag down here to hell a human soul their own torture is increased. But what does one not do for hatred?"
"Deep down I was rebelling against God. You did not understand it; you thought me still a Catholic. I wanted, in fact, to be called one; I even used to pay my ecclesiastical dues. Maybe your answers were right sometimes. On me they made no impression, since you must not be right. Because of these counterfeited relationships between the two of us, our separation on the occasion of my marriage was of no consequence to me. Before the wedding I went to confession and communion once more. It was a precept. My husband and I thought alike on this point. Why not comply with this formality? So we complied with this, as with the other formalities."
"Our married life, in general, was spent in great harmony. We were of the same idea in everything. In this too, that we did not want the burden of children. In truth, my husband would have like to have one; no more, of course. In the end I succeeded in dissuading him even from this desire. Dresses, luxurious furniture, places of entertainment, picnics and trips by car and similar things were more important for me... It was a year of pleasure on earth, the one that passed from my marriage to my sudden death. Internally, of course, I was never happy, although externally at ease. There was always something indeterminate inside that gnawed at me."
"Unexpectedly I had an inheritance from my Aunt, Lotte. My husband succeeded in increasing his wages to a considerable figure. And so I was able to furnish our new home in an attractive way. Religion did not show its light but from afar off, pale, feeble and uncertain."
"I used to give free vent to my ill humor about some mediaeval representations of hell in cemeteries or elsewhere, in which the devil is roasting souls in red burning coals, while his companions with long tails drag new victims to him. Clara! One can be mistaken in depicting hell, but never can one exaggerate."
"I tell you: the fire of which the Bible speaks, does not mean the torment of the conscience. Fire is fire! What He said: 'Away from Me, you accursed one, into eternal fire', is to be understood literally. Literally! How can the spirit be touched by material fire, you will ask. How can your soul suffer on earth when you put your finger on the flame? In fact the soul does not burn; and yet what torture all the individual feels!"
"Our greatest torture consists in the certain knowledge that we shall never see God. How can this torture us so much, since on earth we are so indifferent? As long as the knife lies on the table, it leaves you cold. You see how keen it is, but you do not feel it. Plunge the knife into the flesh and you will start screaming for pain. Now we feel the loss of God. The lost Catholics suffer more than those of other religions, because they, mostly, received and despised more graces and more light. He who knew more suffers more cruelly than he who knew less. He who sinned out of malice suffers more keenly than he who sinned out of weakness. But nobody suffers more than he deserves. Oh, if that were not true, I should have a motive to hate!"
"My death happened this way . . ."
"A week ago - I am speaking according to your reckoning, because according to pain, I could very well say that it is already ten years that I am burning in hell - a week ago, then, my husband and I, on a Sunday went on a picnic, the last one for me. The day was glorious. I felt very well. A sinister sense of pleasure that was with me all the day long, invaded me. When lo, suddenly, during the return, my husband was dazzled by a car that was coming full speed. He lost control."
"Jesus, used frequently by some people of German language - escaped from my lips with a shivering. Not as a prayer, but as a shout. A lacerating pain took hold of the whole of me. (In comparison with the present only a trifle). Then I lost consciousness. Strange! That morning this thought had come to me in an inexplicable way: 'You could go to Mass once more', It seemed like the last call of Love."
"Clear and resolute, my 'NO' cut off that train of thought. You will know already what happened after my death. The lot of my husband and that of my mother, what happened to my corpse and the proceedings of my funeral are known to me through some natural knowledge we have here. What happens on earth we know only obscurely. But we know what touches us closely. I see also where you are living."
"I myself awoke from the darkness suddenly, in the instant of my passing. I saw myself as flooded by a dazzling light. It was in the same place where my dead body was lying. It was like a theater, when suddenly the lights in the hall are put out, the curtains are rent aside and an unexpected scene, horrible illuminated, appears. The scene of my life."
"My soul showed herself to me as in a mirror; all the graces despised from my youth until my last NO to God. I felt myself like an assassin, to whom his dead victim is shown during his trial at court - Should I repent? Never! - Should I feel ashamed? Never!"
"However, I could not even stand before the eyes of God, rejected by me. There was only one thing for me: flight! As Cain fled from the dead body of Abel, so my soul rushed from the sight of horror."
"This was the particular judgment: the invisible Judge said: 'Away from Me'. Then my soul, as a yellow brimstone shadow, fell headlong into the place of eternal torture."
------------------------------------------
https://www.olrl.org/doctrine/cry.shtmlQuoteThis unusual narrative recounts the revelations of a lost soul to a former acquaintance. It is a powerful record of the steps which led a young woman to lose her soul in Hell for all eternity.
Although it has several times been printed with imprimatur, this in itself does not guarantee the authenticity of the story.
An imprimatur merely indicates that the subject matter is free from error in faith and morals.
Is it true?
Obviously, it cannot be "guaranteed" because the only evidence is that of the girl herself.
It certainly may be true and its instructional qualities would pertain even if the story itself were not true.
In the July apparition at Fatima a vision of a Hell of fire was given to the three little children, and significantly, its existence was confirmed by the great public miracle on October 13th.
Yet Hell is little spoken of in the pulpits. Because of this, the special intervention of Heaven, may, as at Fatima, be necessary to restore this sobering doctrine to its important place in Christian dogma.
It is well to remember that the Hell spoken of here is the Hell which has a significant place in Catholic doctrine, the Hell described vividly by Christ Himself, the Hell seen in all its livid horror by the children at Fatima on July 13th, 1917.
The names of persons and places are omitted because of the nature of the story, plus the fact of its recent origin.
----------------------------------------------
Clara and Annette, both single Catholics in their early twenties, worked adjacent to each other as employees of a commercial firm in Germany. Although they were never very close friends, they shared a courteous mutual regard which led to an exchange of ideas and, eventually, of confidences. Clara professed herself openly religious, and felt it her duty to instruct and admonish Annette when the latter appeared excessively casual or superficial in religious matters.
In due course, Annette married and left the firm. The year was 1937. Clara spent the autumn of that year on holiday at Lake Garda. About the middle of September she received a letter from her mother. "Annette . . . is dead. She was the victim of an auto accident and was buried yesterday at Wald-Friedhof."
Clara was frightened since she knew her friend was not very religious. Was she prepared to appear before God? Dying suddenly, what had happened to her?
The next day she attended Mass, received Holy Communion, and prayed fervently for her friend. The following night, at ten minutes after midnight, the vision took place. . .
"Clara, do not pray for me! I am in hell. If I tell you this and speak at length about it, do not think it is because of our friendship. We here do not love anyone. I do this as under constraint. In truth, I should like to see you to come to this state where I must remain forever."
"Perhaps that angers you, but here we all think that way. Our wills are hardened in evil - in what you call evil. Even when we do something 'good', as I do now, opening your eyes about hell, it is not because of a good intention."
"Do you still remember our first meeting four years ago at. . .? You were then 23 and had been there already half a year. Because I was a beginner, you gave me some helpful advice. Then I praised your love of your neighbor. Ridiculous! Your help was mere coquetry. Here we do not acknowledge any good - in anybody."
"Do you remember what I told you about my youth? Now I am painfully compelled to fill in some of the gaps."
"According to the plan of my parents, I should not have existed. A misfortune brought about my conception. My two sisters were 14 and 15 when I was born."
"Would that I had never existed! Would that I could now annihilate myself! Escape these tortures! No pleasure would equal that with which I would abandon my existence, as a garment of ashes which is lost in nothingness. But I must continue to exist as I chose to make myself - as a ruined person."
"When father and mother, still young, left the country for the city, they had lost touch with the Church and were keeping company with irreligious people. They had met at a dance, and after a year and a half of companionship they 'had' to get married."
"As a result of the nuptial ceremony, so much holy water remained on them that my mother attended Sunday Mass a couple of times a year. But she never taught me to pray. Instead, she was completely taken up with the daily cares of life, although our situation was not bad."
"I refer to prayer, Mass, religious instruction, holy water, church with a very strong repugnance. I hate all that, as I hate those who go to church, and in general every human being and everything."
"From a great many things do we receive torture. Every knowledge received at the hour of death, every remembrance of things lived or known is for us, a piercing flame. In each remembrance, good and bad, we see the way in which was present - the grace we despised or ignored. What a torture is this! We do not eat, we do not sleep, we do not walk. Chained, with howling and gnashing of teeth, we look appalled at our ruined life, hating and suffering. Do you hear? We here drink hatred like water. Above all we hate God. With reluctance do I force myself to make you understand."
"The blessed in heaven must love God because they see Him without veil, in all His dazzling beauty. That makes their bliss indescribable. We know this and the knowledge makes us furious. Men on earth, who know God from nature and from revelation, can love Him, but they are not compelled to do so. The believer - I say this with gnashing of teeth - who contemplates Christ on the cross, with arms extended, will end by loving Him."
"But he whom God approaches only in the final storm, as punisher, as just avenger, because he was rejected by Him, such a person cannot but hate Him with all the strength of his wicked will. We died with willful resolve to be separated from God. Do you now understand why hell lasts forever! It is because our wills were fixed for eternity at the moment of death. We had made our final choice. Our obstinacy will never leave us. Under compulsion, I must add that God is merciful even towards us. I affirm many things against my will and must choke the torrent of abuses I should like to vomit out."
"God was merciful to us by not allowing our wicked wills to exhaust themselves on earth, as we should have been prepared to do. This would have increased our faults and our pains. He caused us to die before our time, as in my case, or had other mitigating circuмstances intervene. Now He shows Himself merciful towards us by not compelling a closer approach than that afforded in this remote inferno. Every step bringing us closer to God would cause us a greater pain than that which a step closer to a burning furnace would cause you."
"You were scared when once, during a walk, I told you that my father, a few days before my first Communion, had told me: 'My little Annette, the main thing is your beautiful white dress, all the rest is just make-believe.' Because of your concern, I was almost ashamed. Now I sneer at it."
"The important thing is that we were not allowed to receive Communion until the age of 12. By then I was already absorbed in worldly amusements and found it easy to set aside, without scruple, the things of religion. Thus, I attached no great importance to my first Communion. We are furious that many children go to Communion at the age of seven. We do all we can to make people believe that children have insufficient knowledge at that age. They must first commit some mortal sins. Then the white Particle will not do so much damage to our cause as when faith, hope, and charity - oh, these things! - received in Baptism, are still alive in their hearts."
"Marta K - and you induced me to enter "The Association of the Young Ladies." The games were amusing. As you know, I immediately took a directive part. I liked it. I also like the picnics. I even let myself be induced to go to confession and communion sometimes."
"Once you warned me, 'Anne, if you do not pray, you go to perdition.' I used to pray very little indeed, and even this unwillingly. You were then only too right. All those who burn in hell did not pray or did not pray enough."
"Prayer is the first step towards God. And it is the decisive step. Especially prayer to her who is the Mother of Christ, whose name we never pronounce. Devotion to her rescues from the devil numberless souls whom sin would infallibly give to him."
"I continue my story, consumed with rage and only because I have to. To pray is the easiest thing man can do on earth. And God has tied up the salvation of each one exactly to this very easy thing."
"To him who prays with perseverance little by little God gives so much light, so much strength, that even the most debased sinner will at the end come back to salvation. During the last years of my life I did not pray any more, so I lacked those graces without which nobody can be saved. Here we no longer receive graces. Moreover, should we receive them we would cynically refuse them. All the fluctuations of earthly existence have ceased in the other life. For years I was living far away from God. For, in the last call of grace I decided against God."
"I never believed in the influence of the devil. And now I affirm that he has strong influence on the persons who are in the condition in which I was then. Only many prayers, others and mine own, united with sacrifices and penances, could have snatched me from his grip. And even this only little by little. If there are only few externally obsessed, there are very many internally possessed. The devil cannot steal the free will from those who give themselves to his influence. But in punishment of their, so to speak, methodical apostasy from God, He allows the devil to nest in them."
"I hate the devil too. And yet I am pleased about him, because he tries to ruin all of you; he and his satellites, the fallen with him at the beginning of time. There are millions of them. They roam around the earth, as thick as a swarm of flies, and you do not even notice it. It is not reserved to us damned to tempt you; but to the fallen spirits. In truth every time they drag down here to hell a human soul their own torture is increased. But what does one not do for hatred?"
"Deep down I was rebelling against God. You did not understand it; you thought me still a Catholic. I wanted, in fact, to be called one; I even used to pay my ecclesiastical dues. Maybe your answers were right sometimes. On me they made no impression, since you must not be right. Because of these counterfeited relationships between the two of us, our separation on the occasion of my marriage was of no consequence to me. Before the wedding I went to confession and communion once more. It was a precept. My husband and I thought alike on this point. Why not comply with this formality? So we complied with this, as with the other formalities."
"Our married life, in general, was spent in great harmony. We were of the same idea in everything. In this too, that we did not want the burden of children. In truth, my husband would have like to have one; no more, of course. In the end I succeeded in dissuading him even from this desire. Dresses, luxurious furniture, places of entertainment, picnics and trips by car and similar things were more important for me... It was a year of pleasure on earth, the one that passed from my marriage to my sudden death. Internally, of course, I was never happy, although externally at ease. There was always something indeterminate inside that gnawed at me."
"Unexpectedly I had an inheritance from my Aunt, Lotte. My husband succeeded in increasing his wages to a considerable figure. And so I was able to furnish our new home in an attractive way. Religion did not show its light but from afar off, pale, feeble and uncertain."
"I used to give free vent to my ill humor about some mediaeval representations of hell in cemeteries or elsewhere, in which the devil is roasting souls in red burning coals, while his companions with long tails drag new victims to him. Clara! One can be mistaken in depicting hell, but never can one exaggerate."
"I tell you: the fire of which the Bible speaks, does not mean the torment of the conscience. Fire is fire! What He said: 'Away from Me, you accursed one, into eternal fire', is to be understood literally. Literally! How can the spirit be touched by material fire, you will ask. How can your soul suffer on earth when you put your finger on the flame? In fact the soul does not burn; and yet what torture all the individual feels!"
"Our greatest torture consists in the certain knowledge that we shall never see God. How can this torture us so much, since on earth we are so indifferent? As long as the knife lies on the table, it leaves you cold. You see how keen it is, but you do not feel it. Plunge the knife into the flesh and you will start screaming for pain. Now we feel the loss of God. The lost Catholics suffer more than those of other religions, because they, mostly, received and despised more graces and more light. He who knew more suffers more cruelly than he who knew less. He who sinned out of malice suffers more keenly than he who sinned out of weakness. But nobody suffers more than he deserves. Oh, if that were not true, I should have a motive to hate!"
"My death happened this way . . ."
"A week ago - I am speaking according to your reckoning, because according to pain, I could very well say that it is already ten years that I am burning in hell - a week ago, then, my husband and I, on a Sunday went on a picnic, the last one for me. The day was glorious. I felt very well. A sinister sense of pleasure that was with me all the day long, invaded me. When lo, suddenly, during the return, my husband was dazzled by a car that was coming full speed. He lost control."
"Jesus, used frequently by some people of German language - escaped from my lips with a shivering. Not as a prayer, but as a shout. A lacerating pain took hold of the whole of me. (In comparison with the present only a trifle). Then I lost consciousness. Strange! That morning this thought had come to me in an inexplicable way: 'You could go to Mass once more', It seemed like the last call of Love."
"Clear and resolute, my 'NO' cut off that train of thought. You will know already what happened after my death. The lot of my husband and that of my mother, what happened to my corpse and the proceedings of my funeral are known to me through some natural knowledge we have here. What happens on earth we know only obscurely. But we know what touches us closely. I see also where you are living."
"I myself awoke from the darkness suddenly, in the instant of my passing. I saw myself as flooded by a dazzling light. It was in the same place where my dead body was lying. It was like a theater, when suddenly the lights in the hall are put out, the curtains are rent aside and an unexpected scene, horrible illuminated, appears. The scene of my life."
"My soul showed herself to me as in a mirror; all the graces despised from my youth until my last NO to God. I felt myself like an assassin, to whom his dead victim is shown during his trial at court - Should I repent? Never! - Should I feel ashamed? Never!"
"However, I could not even stand before the eyes of God, rejected by me. There was only one thing for me: flight! As Cain fled from the dead body of Abel, so my soul rushed from the sight of horror."
"This was the particular judgment: the invisible Judge said: 'Away from Me'. Then my soul, as a yellow brimstone shadow, fell headlong into the place of eternal torture."
------------------------------------------
This is the OP again. I have found what might be 'solutions' to my problems.
The doctrine of apocatastasis "was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm) pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05075b.htm) was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm)." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm
There will be punishment after death, maybe even a long punishment, but it will be temporary.
No, Mercy and Justice, That is false. Hell is eternal.
Daniel 12:2,3 Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence. But the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavenly expanse. And those bringing many to righteousness will be like the stars forever and ever.
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
The second 'solution' is the belief in a spirit world. The way that spiritualists believe the after life to be. The afterlife/spirit world is a world similar to ours, but free of anguish and sorrow. ... contrary to the traditional Christian view ...
There are not two worlds. There is one and you'd better not be wrong about the real world.
These options are just so much more consoling to me than the traditional Christian view of eternal fire for 99.89 %of humanity.
Are you seeking Truth or your own comfort and consolation?
St Paul wrote to the Corinthians: 1 - 2 : 6-10
Howbeit we speak wisdom among the perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, neither of the princes of this world that come to nought; But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew; for if they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him. But to us God hath revealed them, by this Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
How much comfort and consolation did Our Lord have as He hung on the cross for our sins? We are meant to follow in His footsteps and carry our cross whatever it be. There will neither be any consolation for you in spiritualism. These thoughts are from the evil one, so you must be a very important one for him to attack you in this way.
1 Corinthians 10: [13] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=10&l=13#x) Let no temptation take hold on you, but such as is human. And God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able: but will make also with temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it.
Such thinking makes me hopless, to be honest. And anxious too. I'm honestly almost starting to doubt that Catholicism, or even Christianity in general is the only true 'way.' .... I'm so spiritually lost right now. I still feel really empty and super sad and anxious, but believing in everlasting torment for temporal actions would make me sadder!
M&J, I am praying for you in your distress, which must be tremendous. Do not give up hope. Do you have the consolation of being able to consult a good priest about your dilemma?
The traditional idea of hell still seems totally overkill. Isn't punishment supposed to be to discipline you and eventually correct you? It makes more sense to see hell as that, a temporary punishment to fix you. Punishment for the sake of it isn't right. You don't send your child to timeout for no reason, you do it to teach him a lesson and fix him. God's mercy endures forever, while His anger is limited.Here (https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/so-high-the-price/msg484149/?topicseen#msg484149) is snip from this thread that's worth reading on the subject.
The traditional idea of hell still seems totally overkill. Isn't punishment supposed to be to discipline you and eventually correct you? It makes more sense to see hell as that, a temporary punishment to fix you. Punishment for the sake of it isn't right. You don't send your child to timeout for no reason, you do it to teach him a lesson and fix him. God's mercy endures forever, while His anger is limited.At 19 years of age you are still young and arrogant enough to think you know better than God himself. As Matthew said in Reply 4: The problem with the OP's reasoning is that he fails to consider that choosing oneself over God in any serious matter makes one "gravely evil". In other words, any mortal sin.
Isn't punishment supposed to be to discipline you and eventually correct you? It makes more sense to see hell as that, a temporary punishment to fix you. Punishment for the sake of it isn't right. You don't send your child to timeout for no reason, you do it to teach him a lesson and fix him. God's mercy endures forever, while His anger is limited.By the time you die, there is no more “fixing” for the one who dies in grave mortal sin; in other words he has renounced any right or desire to live with God in Eternal Life. Hell is eternal “timeout”, if you want to use that word, chosen by the unrepentant sinner himself. It is God’s Mercy and Justice that determines this. He gives the unrepentant sinner the thing he most desires – to escape from God’s presence.
"God is the savior of ALL men, especially of believers." 1 Timothy 4 10
"In Christ, ALL will be made to live." 1Corinthians 15 22
"The last enemy to be destroyed will be death." 1 Cor 15 26 (How can death be destroyed if hell will be for ever?)
There a ton of verses that seem to support Christian universalism. Everywhere I see that Christ is the Saviour of ALL men and the WHOLE WORLD. Not just a few men. And yes, I know that there are frequent references to eternal fire and whatnot; but I've read compelling evidence that shows how the greek word doesn't really mean eternal. It just means an indefinite period of time. Many early Christians believed in Universalism, it seems:
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm
Also, a lot of these seem pretty hard to refute:
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Bible%20Threatenings%20Explained.htm
I'm sorry, but it just seems to make more sense to believe that Christ truly is the Victor over death. The traditional view of salvation just makes God look like a failed Saviour. An accident. It makes the cross seem like a frail and almost pathetic attempt. Like "awww, well at least you tried!" If ony 3 out of 3838298374748383829383838 people will go to heaven everyday...? I don't want to believe God is a failure or that the cross is useless!! But, again, the traditional view makes it seem so. At least in my confused view. Please enlighten me if you can.
P.s. As for Apocosatasis being condemned:The links you present are unadulterated garbage – excuse the expression. The last one Eclectic Orthodoxy (https://afkimel.wordpress.com/) is a blogger who says of himself: "I'm a blogger, dammit, not a theologian!" It has no authority whatever.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/afkimel.wordpress.com/2015/05/18/apocatastasis-the-heresy-that-never-was-2/amp/
??
The traditional idea of hell still seems totally overkill. Isn't punishment supposed to be to discipline you and eventually correct you? It makes more sense to see hell as that, a temporary punishment to fix you. Punishment for the sake of it isn't right. You don't send your child to timeout for no reason, you do it to teach him a lesson and fix him. God's mercy endures forever, while His anger is limited.Indeed, your propositions are heretical.
The main reason people are going to hell is that they prefer to please themselves, rather than to please God.Only those (like us) who have been sufficiently preached to can displease God by preferring ourselves over him with malice in our hearts. Only we are liable to punishment. But what of those who don't know? You cannot be punished in such a manner for IGNORANCE. And I don't understand how thinking only a part of hell is reserved for fire is somehow bad or heretical. Christ Himself called hell, according to Catholicism, 'paradise' when He said to the good thief, "Today you will be with me in paradise."
So, Mercyandjustice, remember that when you try to make Hell a pleasant place in your mind. You are wanting to please yourself.
It's not a buyer's market, where you get the hell of your choice. No one can design his own eternal punishment. He may chose it but it's not his to design.
We just get what's coming to us, whether Heaven or Hell, but we have no say in the design. No, hell is settled long ago and any of your wishful thinking will not make a skerrick of difference to the outcome.
So buckle down and live the life of a Catholic, and stop toying with these three other options. As the saying goes, Don' t play with fire!
:heretic:
Only those (like us) who have been sufficiently preached to can displease God by preferring ourselves over him with malice in our hearts. ..Why do you specify "malice". God hates not only "malice"; He also hates indifference, selfishness, gluttony, luxury, and lukewarmness.
Quote ...I will believe that He will see what is best for our souls in the next life and that He will give it to us. That's it. |
bumpBump for what?
Why do you specify "malice". God hates not only "malice"; He also hates indifference, selfishness, gluttony, luxury, and lukewarmness.Indifference, selfishness, etc is malice. Lukewarm people are people who have had the truth sufficiently preached to them and who do nothing with that knowledge. AKA, they (from our point of view) prefer themselves. Also, Jesus refers to those who refuse to feed, clothe and all that out of contempt for their neighbor. Not everyone can feed and clothe others. So there is still malice in their somewhere I guess. Also, I still need someone to tell me of my personal view (only some people who dont end up in heaven actually 'burn' and suffer in hell.) hell would be heretical. I don't see how, since Jesus Himself tells us that comfort is possible in hell. I think the main issue here is the dogmatic view of the afterlife in western Christianity combined with my desire to know everything. I know in the east it is more vague, which I like more sometimes.
Apocalypse (Revelation) 3:16 (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=73&ch=3&l=16#x) But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.
You realise, don't you Mercyand justice, that you can go into the eternal fire, not only for those sins committed "with malice in our hearts", but for the things that we have omitted doing:Matthew 24 [41 - 46] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
Then why don't you simply trust God, without going against what He and His Holy Church teaches us?
I did not accuse you of being a heretic, although some of the things you are saying here are heretical. You say yourself that you could go any one of four ways and three of those ways will certainly lead you to hell. You seem to be a very confused young man, and the level of your culpability is for God to judge.
I asked before, but you didn't answer me. You just keep going over the same ground and there is no breakthrough.
But I am asking you again now. How is your prayer life? Do you pray the Rosary?
Rejoice, O Virgin Mary, for thou alone have destroyed all heresies. Thou believed the word of the Archangel Gabriel. A virgin still, thou brought forth the God-man; thou bore a Child, O Virgin, and remained a Virgin still. Mother of God, intercede for us.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary5.htm
Philosophical questions about the existence of evil have been the bane of Christian thinkers for centuries. That’s because the objections that skeptics pose against our faith are unanswerable from a traditional standpoint.Thought provoking insight from a universalist website. This is how I feel a lot of times. How would a traditionalist answer the problem of pain?
Take the h0Ɩ0cαųst, for example. From the traditional perspective, Jєωιѕн people went through the nightmare of Auschwitz — with its gas ovens, starvation and torture — only to pass on to an infinitely worse fate when they finally died. Is this assertion part of a doctrine that we can possibly deem “the good news”?
Look at the agony in the world that encompasses us. For the universalist, it is a part of our soul-making process. We learn goodness through the things we suffer. When we pass into the final state of perfection, we will all say that it was worth the pain (however unlikely this may seem now). Paul wrote, “I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us.” (Rom. 8:18) Universalists hope for a day when all mankind will see life from that perspective.
The traditionalist cannot even hope for such a thing. For the overwhelming majority of humanity, throughout all ages, existence will offer no meaning. Multitudes will be born, live a life of acute suffering and then die — only to be dispatched to an existence of perpetual anguish.
Annihilationists advance their position here as a worthy alternative. But their hypothesis also fails to identify any purpose or meaning in the lives of millions. A nonchristian woman grows up in a poor Ethiopian village. She is ravaged with hunger. Loved ones all around her succuмb to pestilence and malnutrition. Finally, she dies. When Jesus returns from heaven, he raises her, then sets her ablaze. She is extinct forever. What was the point of her life? Nothing. It was tragically absurd and meaningless.
Thought provoking insight from a universalist website. This is how I feel a lot of times. How would a traditionalist answer the problem of pain?Our lives are meant to manifest God's glory for his own sake. For the damned they show forth the glory of his justice, for the saved they show forth the glory of his mercy, so that every life in every fate and every condition is oriented to the glory of God, whether they like it or not.
Our lives are meant to manifest God's glory for his own sake. For the damned they show forth the glory of his justice, for the saved they show forth the glory of his mercy, so that every life in every fate and every condition is oriented to the glory of God, whether they like it or not.
Take the h0Ɩ0cαųst, for example. From the traditional perspective, Jєωιѕн people went through the nightmare of Auschwitz — with its gas ovens, starvation and torture — only to pass on to an infinitely worse fate when they finally died. Is this assertion part of a doctrine that we can possibly deem “the good news”?But it is definitely possible that at least some were inculpably ignorant of Christ and therefore "rejected" Him. When I think of "rejection" I think of pushing something or someone away maliciously. If a Jєωιѕн person is born and raised in a Jєωιѕн home, and knows next to nothing of Christ and His message, then how could he be grievously punished? That seems totally unfair. The problem with the traditional view, at least from my P.O.V., of hell and heaven is that it fails to take into account just how varied this world is. The theologuans and saints of the past lived in societies where everyone was under the Church's control. So this mentality of only two possible categories, totally good and totally bad, made sense to them. But now in this age of information, now that we see how different every single person is; it seems that not everyone is totally wicked and totally righteous. Not everyone is on the extreme north and south pole. There is an entire world in between, with differing amounts of goodness and badness. Everyones experiences, sins, good deeds vary much in culpability, malice, etc. That is not to say that the traditional view is necessarily wrong, but rather that there are many things about the afterlife and God's judgments that we know nothing of. And the whole thing about works without sanctifying grace. That may be true, but why does having no grace suddenly mean everlasting fire? What if the person is inculpably without grace? I can understand that heaven is the extraordinary end of man, but again, why does the ordinary end (hell) have to be so dreadful? Why cant a portion, or even most of hell be a paradise, like Christ said on the cross? I can understand it being dreadful for the truly wicked, for those in mortal sin. But how many who dont make it to heaven are truly wicked? How many are in mortal sin? I don't know. But millions, probably hundreds of millions, BILLIONS have died/will die ignorant of Christ and His message. Not because they were preached to of it and said "No, I don't want it, it is useless." But simply because they never received a chance. Even people born here, in the U.S.! Or any other modern nation! Why can't those who never received a chance be preached to in the afterlife? And why can't only a portion of the place called "hell" be full of eternal suffering for those who are truly 100 percent wicked? One has to be 100 percent perfect to enter the glories of heaven. Therefore it only makes sense that ONLY those who are 100 percent truly wicked can suffer any sort of eternal fire in a certain area of hell. If Universal Restoration isn't a thing, that is.
Ah! Do you not know that Jєωιѕн people have ample proof and opportunity to accept Jesus as the Messiah and Saviour, but they refuse? They reject Him. You cannot blame their rejection of Jesus Christ on ignorance.
So you persist in imbibing heretical nonsense from these people who have no understanding of the Church and what She teaches.
I notice that you changed your signature because instead of four possible ways you have added another 5th way, i.e. The Eastern Christians have a more vague view of the afterlife.
You have replaced it with a falsehood: Pain is never permanent. Strange! Hell is pain and hell is permanent. Therefore pain can be permanent
I cannot answer other issues right now and if no one else does I may get back to it later if I have the time.
But it is definitely possible that at least some were inculpably ignorant of Christ and therefore "rejected" Him. When I think of "rejection" I think of pushing something or someone away maliciously. If a Jєωιѕн person is born and raised in a Jєωιѕн home, and knows next to nothing of Christ and His message, then how could he be grievously punished? That seems totally unfair. The problem with the traditional view, at least from my P.O.V., of hell and heaven is that it fails to take into account just how varied this world is. The theologuans and saints of the past lived in societies where everyone was under the Church's control. So this mentality of only two possible categories, totally good and totally bad, made sense to them. But now in this age of information, now that we see how different every single person is; it seems that not everyone is totally wicked and totally righteous. Not everyone is on the extreme north and south pole. There is an entire world in between, with differing amounts of goodness and badness. Everyones experiences, sins, good deeds vary much in culpability, malice, etc. That is not to say that the traditional view is necessarily wrong, but rather that there are many things about the afterlife and God's judgments that we know nothing of. And the whole thing about works without sanctifying grace. That may be true, but why does having no grace suddenly mean everlasting fire? What if the person is inculpably without grace? I can understand that heaven is the extraordinary end of man, but again, why does the ordinary end (hell) have to be so dreadful? Why cant a portion, or even most of hell be a paradise, like Christ said on the cross? I can understand it being dreadful for the truly wicked, for those in mortal sin. But how many who dont make it to heaven are truly wicked? How many are in mortal sin? I don't know. But millions, probably hundreds of millions, BILLIONS have died/will die ignorant of Christ and His message. Not because they were preached to of it and said "No, I don't want it, it is useless." But simply because they never received a chance. Even people born here, in the U.S.! Or any other modern nation! Why can't those who never received a chance be preached to in the afterlife? And why can't only a portion of the place called "hell" be full of eternal suffering for those who are truly 100 percent wicked? One has to be 100 percent perfect to enter the glories of heaven. Therefore it only makes sense that ONLY those who are 100 percent truly wicked can suffer any sort of eternal fire in a certain area of hell. If Universal Restoration isn't a thing, that is.You ought to go ahead and read these 2 articles from the pre-Vatican II Catholic Encyclopedia:
And the quote is apparently from St. Teresa of Avila.
"We all die, and like waters that return no more, we fall down into the Earth: neither will God have a soul to perish, but recalleth, meaning that he that is cast off should not altogether perish-- 2 Kings (2 Samuel) 14:14
Surprise, surprise -- GLSector doesn't belong here!
Who'da thunk it?
A lot of people, I'm sure...
Needless to say, GLSector has been banned for insolence.
He is a sad example of a person damaged and brainwashed by the modern world, with all its errors. He has a very slim chance of saving his soul. I was hoping to keep him around so he would learn something about Tradition -- I figured it would be for his own good. But I think he's contaminated CathInfo enough. May God have mercy on him.
Which post was his? Did you delete it? I don't recall reading anything that sounded like it was from him.Yes, Matthew deleted the offending entry very shortly after it was posted and immediately banned him.
OP,I have read in Catholic websites that purgatory exists in order to make you perfectly "clean." These websites usually pull out a quote from scripture, I think from the book of the Apocalypse. "Nothing unclean can enter heaven." Or something like that. If people aren't totally perfect and can still enter heaven, then why does purgatory exist? Purgatory should purge you so that you may become 100 percent clean and therefore be worthy of heaven, no?
Isn't it ironic that, here you are, complaining on behalf of all those people who don't know the truth and (so you think, erroneously) will be condemned on that score and yet, YOU have the truth staring right at you in the face, and yet you still REJECT it? How do you explain that? In which case, "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them." -2 Peter 2:21
You have stated many untrue things. The Church has never taught that people will be damned for being truly invincibly ignorant about Our Lord Jesus Christ. And you also forget that God has written His law on the hearts of every single person, and even if they are utterly ignorant natives in faraway lands with no contact with the world, they still have a conscience, and they can still either reject or obey God's law, and if they choose to obey, God will give them further graces to come to the truth and be saved. If they reject it they will be condemned and it will not be due to their not knowing about Our Lord but because they chose to commit some other sin.
And where did you get the idea that the Church teaches that either people are 100% good or bad? I've never heard such a thing. You really ought to read a moral theology book to find out just how many degrees of evil/sin there are, and how many distinctions and excusing causes there are. Most of what you say is just outright false.
I have read in Catholic websites that purgatory exists in order to make you perfectly "clean." These websites usually pull out a quote from scripture, I think from the book of the Apocalypse. "Nothing unclean can enter heaven." Or something like that. If people aren't totally perfect and can still enter heaven, then why does purgatory exist? Purgatory should purge you so that you may become 100 percent clean and therefore be worthy of heaven, no?Yes, that's what purgatory is, so you're contradicting yourself.
Yes, that's what purgatory is, so you're contradicting yourself.How am I contradicting myself? The Church teaches that one must be TOTALly perfect to enter heaven. So that means that right now there are 100 percent good people in heaven. Therefore it only makes sense that one must be TOTALly imperfect, wicked, to enter hell. And we know from scripture and tradition that hell can be good, even to be described as a paradise. Therefore only a part of hell can be fire and suffering forever, because the totally wicked can't enjoy anything, right? And yeah sure, let's go with the idea that if ignorant people followed their consciences then they would end up in heaven. Even then, I highly doubt the Father of mercy and God of all comfort would hold too much against them. Jesus tells us that the ignorant servant wouldn't be punished as much as the non ignorant. The punishment for the ignorant, in the traditional view, would be an etrnal loss of heaven. And even then, I don't see why God wouldn't be able to allow such people to remain 'blissfully ignorant' of what they've lost. You know, cuz He loves us. Honesty, the whole idea of sufficient grace seems contradictory. Catholicism says we are born evil, pretty much. We are born concupiscient, hearts aimed towards evil, etc etc. How could a person naturally reach salvation? Isn't that 'pelagianism'? Doesn't traditional catholicism say that salvation is purely of God and His grace, and not at all by our own efforts? If so, how does following a natural law gain us a supernatural end? Also, the sufficent grace theory, to me, is like throwing a plastic bag to someone drowning in a pool. If they drown, it is their fault for not utilizing something so (seemingly) small and insignificant in thier tumultuous situation. I don't understand the traditional Christian desire to see everyone burn and suffer. Even children. I remember reading through the Glories of Mary by Alphonsus and seeing a story (MYTH) where a 5 year old went to suffer in hell. LOL! I'm only laughing at how overkill and ridiculous this example is.
And how about you answer the post you quoted?
How am I contradicting myself?
I was referring to this: "If people aren't totally perfect and can still enter heaven, then why does purgatory exist? Purgatory should purge you so that you may become 100 percent clean and therefore be worthy of heaven, no?"
The first sentence is false, because obviously nothing imperfect enters Heaven, which is what you say in the second sentence, so you contradict yourself here by answering your own question.
Therefore it only makes sense that one must be TOTALly imperfect, wicked, to enter hell.
As it has been pointed out to you already, one mortal sin is of infinite malice and wickedness, although there is a hierarchy of evil of course. Blasphemy is regarded as the worst sin of all, but that doesn't make fornication not a mortal sin anymore does it?
And we know from scripture and tradition that hell can be good, even to be described as a paradise.
You should go read some pre-V2 Bible commentaries again. Abraham's Bosom was not the Hell of the damned, so no, Hell cannot be good or a paradise.
The punishment for the ignorant, in the traditional view, would be an etrnal loss of heaven.
This is assuming anyone who is ignorant cannot ever make it or come to the truth, but we know that is false, so your objections are baseless.
And even then, I don't see why God wouldn't be able to allow such people to remain 'blissfully ignorant' of what they've lost. You know, cuz He loves us.
Well this is what the limbo of the children is, don't you know?
Honesty, the whole idea of sufficient grace seems contradictory. Catholicism says we are born evil, pretty much. We are born concupiscient, hearts aimed towards evil, etc etc. How could a person naturally reach salvation? Isn't that 'pelagianism'? Doesn't traditional catholicism say that salvation is purely of God and His grace, and not at all by our own efforts? If so, how does following a natural law gain us a supernatural end?
That's not what I said, I said that if they follow the natural law, God will further help them and bestow supernatural faith on them and make them come to the truth. I said this because you were complaining that all the ignorant don't have a chance and they suffer so much here and will suffer even more in Hell etc.
Also, the sufficent grace theory, to me, is like throwing a plastic bag to someone drowning in a pool. If they drown, it is their fault for not utilizing something so (seemingly) small and insignificant in thier tumultuous situation.
You don't even understand most of anything you claim to be "wrong" and you're simply throwing out typical modern liberal objections filled with ignorance, so you better be quiet and go and lear something.
I don't understand the traditional Christian desire to see everyone burn and suffer. Even children. I remember reading through the Glories of Mary by Alphonsus and seeing a story (MYTH) where a 5 year old went to suffer in hell. LOL! I'm only laughing at how overkill and ridiculous this example is.
It's not a desire, it's how things are, and yes, the 5 year old boy story is true.
Again, here you are, with truth staring you in the face, and all you do is scoff and complain about this and that, while complaining about people who "don't know."
You're a perfect example of why people go to Hell. Keep on laughing.
God is merciful forever until someone 'not in a state of grace' eats just a little too much ice cream after dinner. Then, he commits the SIN of gluttony and is damned to torment FOREVER!! Absolutely ridiculous.You're right, that IS ridiculous, because that would not be a mortal sin.