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Author Topic: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?  (Read 6882 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?
« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2017, 12:08:59 AM »
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  • And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them. -2 Corinthians 4:3


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?
    « Reply #76 on: April 03, 2017, 12:15:57 AM »
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  • It's very very simple- those who want the truth find it. Those who die without it never wanted it and their ignorance is punishment for unrepentant mortal sins.

    There is no one whom God will refuse who truly desires him. He reveals his Son to the ones who desire him.

    But to those who remain in willful sin, he does not. Therefore do not unreasonably pity the invincibly ignorant, they will all get exactly what they deserve. And those who seek, they find Christ, they leave this life as repentant Christians. 

    But you see that is the whole reason God says to the damned, "I never knew you." Either because they never really sought him or abandoned him.

    No one in Hell is there frustrated that they didn't get a chance to know Christ. Everyone there realizes they truly rejected their opportunity.


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    Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?
    « Reply #77 on: April 03, 2017, 04:06:47 AM »
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  • Which post was his? Did you delete it? I don't recall reading anything that sounded like it was from him.
    Yes, Matthew deleted the offending entry very shortly after it was posted and immediately banned him.

    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?
    « Reply #78 on: April 03, 2017, 08:52:19 AM »
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  • OP,

    Isn't it ironic that, here you are, complaining on behalf of all those people who don't know the truth and (so you think, erroneously) will be condemned on that score and yet, YOU have the truth staring right at you in the face, and yet you still REJECT it? How do you explain that? In which case, "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them." -2 Peter 2:21

    You have stated many untrue things. The Church has never taught that people will be damned for being truly invincibly ignorant about Our Lord Jesus Christ. And you also forget that God has written His law on the hearts of every single person, and even if they are utterly ignorant natives in faraway lands with no contact with the world, they still have a conscience, and they can still either reject or obey God's law, and if they choose to obey, God will give them further graces to come to the truth and be saved. If they reject it they will be condemned and it will not be due to their not knowing about Our Lord but because they chose to commit some other sin.

    And where did you get the idea that the Church teaches that either people are 100% good or bad? I've never heard such a thing. You really ought to read a moral theology book to find out just how many degrees of evil/sin there are, and how many distinctions and excusing causes there are. Most of what you say is just outright false.
    I have read in Catholic websites that purgatory exists in order to make you perfectly "clean." These websites usually pull out a quote from scripture, I think from the book of the Apocalypse. "Nothing unclean can enter heaven." Or something like that. If people aren't totally perfect and can still enter heaven,  then why does purgatory exist? Purgatory should purge you so that you may become 100 percent clean and therefore be worthy of heaven, no?

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    Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?
    « Reply #79 on: April 03, 2017, 09:12:57 AM »
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  • I have read in Catholic websites that purgatory exists in order to make you perfectly "clean." These websites usually pull out a quote from scripture, I think from the book of the Apocalypse. "Nothing unclean can enter heaven." Or something like that. If people aren't totally perfect and can still enter heaven,  then why does purgatory exist? Purgatory should purge you so that you may become 100 percent clean and therefore be worthy of heaven, no?
    Yes, that's what purgatory is, so you're contradicting yourself.

    And how about you answer the post you quoted?


    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?
    « Reply #80 on: April 03, 2017, 09:49:36 AM »
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  • Yes, that's what purgatory is, so you're contradicting yourself.

    And how about you answer the post you quoted?
    How am I contradicting myself? The Church teaches that one must be TOTALly perfect to enter heaven. So that means that right now there are 100 percent good people in heaven. Therefore it only makes sense that one must be TOTALly imperfect, wicked, to enter hell. And we know from scripture and tradition that hell can be good, even to be described as a paradise. Therefore only a part of hell can be fire and suffering forever, because the totally wicked can't enjoy anything, right? And yeah sure, let's go with the idea that if ignorant people followed their consciences then they would end up in heaven. Even then, I highly doubt the Father of mercy and God of all comfort would hold too much against them. Jesus tells us that the ignorant servant wouldn't be punished as much as the non ignorant. The punishment for the ignorant, in the traditional view, would be an etrnal loss of heaven. And even then, I don't see why God wouldn't be able to allow such people to remain 'blissfully ignorant' of what they've lost. You know, cuz He loves us. Honesty,  the whole idea of sufficient grace seems contradictory. Catholicism says we are born evil, pretty much. We are born concupiscient, hearts aimed towards evil, etc etc. How could a person naturally reach salvation? Isn't that 'pelagianism'? Doesn't traditional catholicism say that salvation is purely of God and His grace,  and not at all by our own efforts? If so, how does following a natural law gain us a supernatural end? Also, the sufficent grace theory, to me, is like throwing a plastic bag to someone drowning in a pool. If they drown, it is their fault for not utilizing something so (seemingly) small and insignificant in thier tumultuous situation. I don't understand the traditional Christian desire to see everyone burn and suffer. Even children. I remember reading through the Glories of Mary by Alphonsus and seeing a story (MYTH) where a 5 year old went to suffer in hell. LOL! I'm only laughing at how overkill and ridiculous this example is. 

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    Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?
    « Reply #81 on: April 03, 2017, 10:23:15 AM »
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  • How am I contradicting myself?

    I was referring to this: "If people aren't totally perfect and can still enter heaven,  then why does purgatory exist? Purgatory should purge you so that you may become 100 percent clean and therefore be worthy of heaven, no?"

    The first sentence is false, because obviously nothing imperfect enters Heaven, which is what you say in the second sentence, so you contradict yourself here by answering your own question. 


    Therefore it only makes sense that one must be TOTALly imperfect, wicked, to enter hell.

    As it has been pointed out to you already, one mortal sin is of infinite malice and wickedness, although there is a hierarchy of evil of course. Blasphemy is regarded as the worst sin of all, but that doesn't make fornication not a mortal sin anymore does it?

    And we know from scripture and tradition that hell can be good, even to be described as a paradise.
     
    You should go read some pre-V2 Bible commentaries again. Abraham's Bosom was not the Hell of the damned, so no, Hell cannot be good or a paradise.

    The punishment for the ignorant, in the traditional view, would be an etrnal loss of heaven.

    This is assuming anyone who is ignorant cannot ever make it or come to the truth, but we know that is false, so your objections are baseless.

    And even then, I don't see why God wouldn't be able to allow such people to remain 'blissfully ignorant' of what they've lost. You know, cuz He loves us.
     
    Well this is what the limbo of the children is, don't you know?

    Honesty,  the whole idea of sufficient grace seems contradictory. Catholicism says we are born evil, pretty much. We are born concupiscient, hearts aimed towards evil, etc etc. How could a person naturally reach salvation? Isn't that 'pelagianism'? Doesn't traditional catholicism say that salvation is purely of God and His grace,  and not at all by our own efforts? If so, how does following a natural law gain us a supernatural end?
     
    That's not what I said, I said that if they follow the natural law, God will further help them and bestow supernatural faith on them and make them come to the truth. I said this because you were complaining that all the ignorant don't have a chance and they suffer so much here and will suffer even more in Hell etc.

    Also, the sufficent grace theory, to me, is like throwing a plastic bag to someone drowning in a pool. If they drown, it is their fault for not utilizing something so (seemingly) small and insignificant in thier tumultuous situation.
     
    You don't even understand most of anything you claim to be "wrong" and you're simply throwing out typical modern liberal objections filled with ignorance, so you better be quiet and go and lear something.
     
    I don't understand the traditional Christian desire to see everyone burn and suffer. Even children. I remember reading through the Glories of Mary by Alphonsus and seeing a story (MYTH) where a 5 year old went to suffer in hell. LOL! I'm only laughing at how overkill and ridiculous this example is. 

    It's not a desire, it's how things are, and yes, the 5 year old boy story is true.

    Again, here you are, with truth staring you in the face, and all you do is scoff and complain about this and that, while complaining about people who "don't know." 

    You're a perfect example of why people go to Hell. Keep on laughing.


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    Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?
    « Reply #82 on: April 03, 2017, 11:52:39 AM »
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  • God is merciful forever until someone 'not in a state of grace' eats just a little too much ice cream after dinner. Then, he commits the SIN of gluttony and is damned to torment FOREVER!! Absolutely ridiculous. 
    You're right, that IS ridiculous, because that would not be a mortal sin.
    Gluttony is in general a venial sin in so far forth as it is an undue indulgence in a thing which is in itself neither good nor bad. Of course it is obvious that a different estimate would have to be given of one so wedded to the pleasures of the table as to absolutely and without qualification live merely to eat and drink, so minded as to be of the number of those, described by the Apostle St. Paul, "whose god is their belly" (Philippians 3:19). Such a one would be guilty of mortal sin. Likewise a person who, by excesses in eating and drinking, would have greatly impaired his health, or unfitted himself for duties for the performance of which he has a grave obligation, would be justly chargeable with mortal sin.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?
    « Reply #83 on: April 03, 2017, 05:39:34 PM »
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  • The seven deadly sins are as follows:
    1)Sloth
    2)Envy
    3)Covetousness
    4)Vainglory or pride
    5)Gluttony
    6)Lust
    7)Anger.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

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    Re: Is it wrong to believe this about hell?
    « Reply #84 on: April 03, 2017, 10:42:19 PM »
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  • God is not merciful unconditionally. He very much attaches conditions, but if you meet them he will always be merciful-

    Condition 1-

    Repent.

    Mercy is for the contrite, and justice for everyone else.