Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Is it Catholic for infertile couples to adopt children?  (Read 5994 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 2Vermont

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11527
  • Reputation: +6478/-1195
  • Gender: Female
Re: St. Thomas: "one who is unable to beget...is not competent to adopt."
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2019, 07:26:13 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Thomas very clearly says Whether adoption is rightly defined? (obj. 4): "one who is unable to beget...is not competent to adopt."
    Now one who is unable to beget, through being a eunuch or impotent, suffers especially from the absence of children of his own begetting. Therefore he is especially competent to adopt someone as his child. But he is not competent to adopt. Therefore adoption is not the taking of someone as one's child.

    ???  This makes no sense to me.  It seems in one sentence he is saying that someone who is unable to beget is competent to adopt, and then he says the complete opposite in the next sentence?

    Offline MaterDominici

    • Mod
    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 5691
    • Reputation: +4426/-109
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Thomas: "one who is unable to beget...is not competent to adopt."
    « Reply #16 on: June 25, 2019, 10:59:19 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Now one who is unable to beget, through being a eunuch or impotent, suffers especially from the absence of children of his own begetting. Therefore he is especially competent to adopt someone as his child. But he is not competent to adopt. Therefore adoption is not the taking of someone as one's child.

    ???  This makes no sense to me.  It seems in one sentence he is saying that someone who is unable to beget is competent to adopt, and then he says the complete opposite in the next sentence?
    First, I must point out that you're quoting the objection rather than the reply to said objection.
    .
    However, that doesn't really clear much up. It seems to me, from a quick reading of this entry, that adoption at that time was not for the sake of the child, but for the sake of a grieving adult (due to loss of a biological child). So, you'd only be eligible to adopt if you've lost a biological child or grandchild.
    .
    Seems very odd to me as it's quite different now, but that's what it seems to be saying. If I'm not reading it correctly, feel free to explain it to me. : )


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11527
    • Reputation: +6478/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Thomas: "one who is unable to beget...is not competent to adopt."
    « Reply #17 on: June 26, 2019, 10:10:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • First, I must point out that you're quoting the objection rather than the reply to said objection.
    .
    However, that doesn't really clear much up. It seems to me, from a quick reading of this entry, that adoption at that time was not for the sake of the child, but for the sake of a grieving adult (due to loss of a biological child). So, you'd only be eligible to adopt if you've lost a biological child or grandchild.
    .
    Seems very odd to me as it's quite different now, but that's what it seems to be saying. If I'm not reading it correctly, feel free to explain it to me. : )
    Still lost here.  Maybe someone else can explain it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12990
    • Reputation: +8207/-2554
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is it Catholic for infertile couples to adopt children?
    « Reply #18 on: June 26, 2019, 12:01:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It doesn't matter what St Thomas said 600-700 years ago, adoption today is supported by the Church both philosophically and through Her many Catholic charities.  St Thomas lived in the middle ages, the most Catholic time in all of history.  Probably weren't too many orphan children or unwanted pregancies in his day.  Any children who were born out of wedlock were taken care of by the extended family, who normally lived close together and operated as a team. 

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Is it Catholic for infertile couples to adopt children?
    « Reply #19 on: June 27, 2019, 08:09:41 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There were many orphans and bastards in St. Thomas's day. Taking in a foundling either as ones adopted child or as a live in servant was not uncommon.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: St. Thomas: "one who is unable to beget...is not competent to adopt."
    « Reply #20 on: June 27, 2019, 09:50:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Now one who is unable to beget, through being a eunuch or impotent, suffers especially from the absence of children of his own begetting. Therefore he is especially competent to adopt someone as his child. But he is not competent to adopt. Therefore adoption is not the taking of someone as one's child.

    ???  This makes no sense to me.  It seems in one sentence he is saying that someone who is unable to beget is competent to adopt, and then he says the complete opposite in the next sentence?
    That translation uses the same word to translate two distinct words of the Latin:
    Super Sent., lib. 4 d. 42 q. 2 a. 1 arg. 4:
    Quote
    ille qui non potest generare, ut spado vel frigidus, maxime patitur defectum in filiis naturalibus. Ergo ei maxime competit assumere in filium aliquem. Sed non competit adoptare ei.
    The sense is that the impotent (note: he doesn't say sterilis, but spado vel frigidus or "eunuch or frigid (person)", which is impotency) should be entitled to children (maxime competit assumere or "most entitled to assume"), but they should not be able to adopt (presumably because of their impotence).
    So, St. Thomas argues that the impotent (not the infertile) should not be able to adopt. Perpetual impotency impedes marriage anyways.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: St. Thomas: "one who is unable to beget...is not competent to adopt."
    « Reply #21 on: June 27, 2019, 09:55:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • impotent (not the infertile)
    Well, "non potest generare" ("cannot generate"), so it's not so clear.
    St. Thomas's understanding of adoption is that it is to replace lost children (not children never had):
    Quote
    I answer that ... one person can take to himself another as a child in likeness to one that is his child by nature, in order to take the place of the children he has lost, this being the chief reason why adoption was introduced

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: St. Thomas: "one who is unable to beget...is not competent to adopt."
    « Reply #22 on: June 27, 2019, 09:58:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • St. Thomas's understanding of adoption is that it is to replace lost children (not children never had):
    This is corroborated by his
    Quote
    Reply to Objection 4. ... greater is sorrow for children lost than for children one has never had. Wherefore those who are impeded from begetting need no solace for their lack of children as those who have had and have lost them


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: St. Thomas: "one who is unable to beget...is not competent to adopt."
    « Reply #23 on: June 27, 2019, 10:09:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Reply to Objection 4. ... greater is sorrow for children lost than for children one has never had. Wherefore those who are impeded from begetting need no solace for their lack of children as those who have had and have lost them, or could have had them but have them not by reason of some accidental impediment.
    Sterility/infertility would be an "accidental impediment".
    In summary:
    • Adoption is chiefly for replacing lost children.
    • The impotent cannot adopt.
    • St. Thomas doesn't deny the sterile/infertile can adopt.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12990
    • Reputation: +8207/-2554
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is it Catholic for infertile couples to adopt children?
    « Reply #24 on: June 27, 2019, 10:12:44 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0

  • This is St Thomas' opinion but it's not the Church's, so his opinion doesn't matter in this case.  This isn't a moral issue but a social one, therefore his opinion is outdated.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11527
    • Reputation: +6478/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Is it Catholic for infertile couples to adopt children?
    « Reply #25 on: June 28, 2019, 06:52:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is St Thomas' opinion but it's not the Church's, so his opinion doesn't matter in this case.  This isn't a moral issue but a social one, therefore his opinion is outdated.
    I don't know that we can rule it out as a "social" issue because if he is saying the only couples who can not adopt are those where there is impotence there could be a moral issue here as well given impotence nullifies marriage. 


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11527
    • Reputation: +6478/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: St. Thomas: "one who is unable to beget...is not competent to adopt."
    « Reply #26 on: June 28, 2019, 06:54:42 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sterility/infertility would be an "accidental impediment".
    In summary:
    • Adoption is chiefly for replacing lost children.
    • The impotent cannot adopt.
    • St. Thomas doesn't deny the sterile/infertile can adopt.
    Thank you for this.  I wish you hadn't posted anonymously.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12990
    • Reputation: +8207/-2554
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is it Catholic for infertile couples to adopt children?
    « Reply #27 on: June 28, 2019, 08:15:23 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    I don't know that we can rule it out as a "social" issue because if he is saying the only couples who can not adopt are those where there is impotence there could be a moral issue here as well given impotence nullifies marriage. 
    Impotence only nullifies marriage if it's known at the time of marriage.  One can become impotent after. 
    .
    You would be correct if the Church has such rules in place for those who wish to adopt.  St Thomas is a teacher; he is not a law maker.  Only the Church makes laws.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Abelites
    « Reply #28 on: June 29, 2019, 02:45:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I wonder why you ask it.
    Seeking counsel as to whether it's something my wife and I are called to

    With respect, do you really think it could possibly be against the faith?
    The hispanic culture seems to frown upon it. In fact, in Mexico the only way to adopt is if the child is a true orphan; both parents must be deceased.

    The Abelites, whom St. Augustine condemned, were a very strange sect of married, perpetually continent couples who each adopted a boy and a girl:
    Quote from: Augustine
    LXXXVII. There is, or rather there was, an unsophisticated heresy in our countryside, that is, around Hippo. It gradually diminished, but continued to exist in a single small village, in which only a few people, but the whole population, were its members. Now all of these have been corrected and have become Catholics, and no one from that error survives. They were called the Abeloim in the Punic form of the name. Some say that they were named after the son of Adam who was called Abel; hence, we can also call them Abelians or Abeloites.

    They did not have intercourse with their wives, and they were, nonetheless, not permitted by the teaching of this sect to live without wives. Husbands and wives, therefore, lived together under the vow of chastity and, by the agreement of their union, adopted for themselves a boy and a girl to be their successors. If any of these died, others were chosen to take their place, provided, of course, that two of the opposite sex took the place of the other two in the same household. If either of the parents died, the children served the one remaining until he or she also died. After that parent's death, they likewise adopted a boy and a girl. There was never a lack of children for them to adopt, since their neighbors on all sides bore children and gladly gave them their poor children in the hope that they would become their heirs.
    Were they incestuous, or is St. Augustine condemning their practice of adoption, their vow of chastity, or both?

    Offline Nadir

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11934
    • Reputation: +7294/-500
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Is it Catholic for infertile couples to adopt children?
    « Reply #29 on: June 29, 2019, 05:14:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you for answering my question so fully.

    Whether or not you are without a child, and I am presuming that you have been able to bear any child, there is nothing in this writing that condemns adoption, per se, but rather the misuse of marriage, which God ordained for the begetting of children, not for permanent abstinence.

    Obviously, there are children out there who are without parents, and this is a disorder in society which you could take a part in putting right. How could the Catholic Church condemn it?

    Mexican mores are not Catholic teaching. God bless you!
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024