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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on April 26, 2021, 03:07:24 AM

Title: Is it a mortal sin to take the vaccine?
Post by: Änσnymσus on April 26, 2021, 03:07:24 AM
Asking a question
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 02, 2021, 01:22:43 AM
Yes.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 02, 2021, 06:08:38 AM
I hold it to be mortal sin to take one of the jabs that contain aborted baby cells ... for any reason.  It’s intrinsically sinful and involves direct (not remote) participation in grave evil.

I believe that taking the ones that used aborted cells for testing could be justified for a grave reason.  CÖVÌD does not constitute grave reason, but perhaps the loss of one’s job could qualify.

Taking one of the mRNA viruses that do not use fetal cells (though I don’t believe these exist yet) could be grave without serious reason because of the health effects, especially the destruction of fertility.  But if someone didn’t believe the evidence that this is the case, then I guess the person could be absolved of serious sin.  At this point we’re talking about scientific or medical judgment.

Taking a normal vax (attenuated virus and no use of fetal cells) such as being produced by a couple of companies would be less grave and less serious reasons could justify it ... again depending on one’s judgment about the potential harm done.

In the case of the harm to health, it would be analogous to taking on any line of employment that may be dangerous.

So the demand for a yes or no answer with a single sentence betrays some ignorance here ... as does the simple “yes” answer above.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: 2Vermont on May 02, 2021, 06:57:25 AM
Like Ladislaus said above this isn't a simple yes or no question.  There are various traditional priests who answer this question differently.  There is no set Church teaching that anyone can point to that says it is definitely a mortal sin.  It requires applying moral principles and, given even the clergy have different opinions when doing so, there isn't a lay person here who can make that judgment for the rest.  It would merely be their individual opinion.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 02, 2021, 09:46:25 AM
Is taking the mark of the beast a mortal sin?
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 02, 2021, 09:47:50 AM
Is taking the mark of the beast a mortal sin?
Yes.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on May 12, 2021, 01:56:08 PM
I hold it to be mortal sin to take one of the jabs that contain aborted baby cells ... for any reason.  It’s intrinsically sinful and involves direct (not remote) participation in grave evil.

I believe that taking the ones that used aborted cells for testing could be justified for a grave reason.  CÖVÌD does not constitute grave reason, but perhaps the loss of one’s job could qualify.

Taking one of the mRNA viruses that do not use fetal cells (though I don’t believe these exist yet) could be grave without serious reason because of the health effects, especially the destruction of fertility.  But if someone didn’t believe the evidence that this is the case, then I guess the person could be absolved of serious sin.  At this point we’re talking about scientific or medical judgment.

Taking a normal vax (attenuated virus and no use of fetal cells) such as being produced by a couple of companies would be less grave and less serious reasons could justify it ... again depending on one’s judgment about the potential harm done.

In the case of the harm to health, it would be analogous to taking on any line of employment that may be dangerous.

So the demand for a yes or no answer with a single sentence betrays some ignorance here ... as does the simple “yes” answer above.
Do any of the vaccines actually *contain* aborted fetal cell tissue?  I thought they all just used them for testing?
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 02:07:33 PM
Do any of the ναccιnєs actually *contain* aborted fetal cell tissue?  I thought they all just used them for testing?
Take a look here https://cogforlife.org
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 12, 2021, 02:11:35 PM
A priest from Avrille told me that it makes no difference, morally speaking, whether the cells were used in testing or production/manufacturing.

The moral distinction which imagines permissibility in the former case, but not in the latter, is fictitious.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 12, 2021, 03:35:24 PM
A priest from Avrille told me that it makes no difference, morally speaking, whether the cells were used in testing or production/manufacturing.

The moral distinction which imagines permissibility in the former case, but not in the latter, is fictitious.

I'm as against taking this ναccιnє as anyone else, but let's not blur things together.  You seem to have this attitude that if you merely throw the word "Avrille" out there, then suddenly the conclusion you assert must be true.  You'll need to share his reasoning.

As I've cited from other sources, including Fr. Ripperger, when the baby's cells are actually in the ναccιnє, then there's no more talk of remote cooperation or even material cooperation in some past evil, because then you're speaking about actively participating in an OINGONG evil, the injustice done to the child whose remains continue to be abused in the ναccιnє.

Once you take that out of the picture, then you're talking about a material cooperation, and various forms of material cooperation can be justified depending on the gravity of the justifying circuмstances.

So if you accurately quote this priest that "it makes no difference," then I immediately suspect his credentials and his learning, because clearly it "makes [a] difference".  Although I suspect that you're oversimplifying or distorting something he said.  But if he did claim it makes no "difference," then that's clearly false because the consequences of different types of cooperation can be different.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 03:37:54 PM
You seem to have this attitude that if you merely throw the word "Avrille" out there, then suddenly the conclusion you assert must be true.
:laugh2:
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 12, 2021, 03:58:17 PM
I'm as against taking this ναccιnє as anyone else, but let's not blur things together.  You seem to have this attitude that if you merely throw the word "Avrille" out there, then suddenly the conclusion you assert must be true.  You'll need to share his reasoning.

As I've cited from other sources, including Fr. Ripperger, when the baby's cells are actually in the ναccιnє, then there's no more talk of remote cooperation or even material cooperation in some past evil, because then you're speaking about actively participating in an OINGONG evil, the injustice done to the child whose remains continue to be abused in the ναccιnє.

Once you take that out of the picture, then you're talking about a material cooperation, and various forms of material cooperation can be justified depending on the gravity of the justifying circuмstances.

So if you accurately quote this priest that "it makes no difference," then I immediately suspect his credentials and his learning, because clearly it "makes [a] difference".  Although I suspect that you're oversimplifying or distorting something he said.  But if he did claim it makes no "difference," then that's clearly false because the consequences of different types of cooperation can be different.

Leaving aside the shocking hubris of your statement, your error seems to emanate from your confusion regarding the terminology used:

Namely, that testing does not involve putting abortive cells into a ναccιnє (true), but development or manufacturing (two different stages of the process) do.

This is half false:

The development stage of a ναccιnє has nothing to do with with the ναccιnє (ie., the solution).

In other words, neither the testing stage, nor the development stage “contain” abortive cells, because neither is a ναccιnє product.

However, both stages (testing and development) destroy cells.

Consequently, there is no moral difference between testing and development, and it is illusory to distinguish permissibility in the case of the former, but not in the latter.

In the next post, I will copy/paste the relevant section from the Avrille email...
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 12, 2021, 04:03:02 PM
Leaving aside the shocking hubris of your statement, your error seems to emanate from your confusion regarding the terminology used:

Namely, that testing does not involve putting abortive cells into a ναccιnє (true), but development or manufacturing (two different stages of the process) do.

This is half false:

The development stage of a ναccιnє has nothing to do with with the ναccιnє (ie., the solution).

In other words, neither the testing stage, nor the development stage “contain” abortive cells, because neither is a ναccιnє product.

However, both stages (testing and development) destroy cells.

Consequently, there is no moral difference between testing and development, and it is illusory to distinguish permissibility in the case of the former, but not in the latter.

In the next post, I will copy/paste the relevant section from the Avrille email...
Avrille priest:

“2. Bishops of the US, telling that people can receive ναccιnєs using abortive cells in testing process and not in manufacturing procès : there is no essential difference for the morality ! Both use abortion. The bishops should condemn both.”

If you question the authenticity of this email excerpt, PM me your email address, and I will send you the entire correspondence.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 04:48:47 PM
A COVID jab (I won't even say vaccine for the that isn't clear) would not be of itself a mortal sin, but most of the jabs are sustained by study on abortion derived cell lines, or grotesque experiments where human skin etc. is grown on mice.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 06:31:34 PM
(LifeSiteNews (http://lifesitenews.com/)) – Cell lines derived from aborted babies used in the production or testing of various vaccines, including a number of COVID vaccines, most likely came from babies who were aborted alive, and according to the general practice as outlined in medical literature, may have been placed in a fridge while still living where they awaited dismemberment before having their organs harvested, a researcher has found.

Biologist Pamela Acker, who has a master’s degree in Biology from the Catholic University of America and who recently authored a book titled Vaccination: A Catholic Perspective (https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.kolbecenter.org%2Fproduct%2Fvaccination-a-catholic-perspective%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cpbaklinski%40lifesitenews.com%7C7edf63fe989341e6d7b408d8d5207309%7Cb1de1e02454440878df20244507fd8e6%7C1%7C0%7C637493682665898238%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=qaC01kEoXWw6diF6Q12l3Jna52Tv%2BmTZVabTzKxInZI%3D&reserved=0), related what the literature says about how babies were aborted to obtain cell lines used in a number of vaccines.
“A number of these abortions that were done in that way were termed ‘abdominal hysterectomies’ in the medical literature. So in some cases, the women were actually being sterilized in the process as well,” she said. 
“They had to maintain a sterile environment because you don't want any contamination of the tissue with any kind of foreign agents, any bacteria, or viruses, or anything like that. The babies were — and, in some cases, the uterus as well — removed from the woman and, without even puncturing the amniotic sac, placed directly into the refrigerator where it was kept for no more than 24 hours.”

“So these babies were literally placed into the fridge alive and then stored between one and 24 hours until they could be dismembered, basically. And this is right there in the scientific literature,” she said.


Moral conflict
Acker spent about nine months in a lab a decade ago working on a project to develop an HIV vaccine with a grant provided by The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. It was when her team decided to use HEK-293 cells for the project that she began to question her involvement. 

“At this point, most people have heard of these (cell lines) because they are connected with the COVID vaccines, but at that time I hadn't. So I asked (my colleague) what ‘HEK’ stands for, and she told me, ‘Human Embryonic Kidney,”’ Acker said in an interview last month (https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/a-hill-worth-dying-on-expert-explains-how-aborted-baby-cells-taint-covid-) with LifeSite Editor-in-chief John-Henry Westen.

Acker said that it was after reading Dr. Alvin Wong’s paper titled “The Ethics of HEK 293 (https://www.pdcnet.org/ncbq/content/ncbq_2006_0006_0003_0473_0495)” that appeared in the 2006 autumn issue of The National Catholic Bioethics Quarterly that she was able to arrive at some moral clarity on the issue.

Wong, an oncologist and senior consultant at Singapore’s National University Cancer Institute who has an interest in bioethics, wrote in his paper that due to evidence that the cells were “obtained from the embryo of a willfully induced abortion,” there is “a moral duty on the part of any researcher to discontinue using this cell line.”

“That moral duty should be particularly clear to Catholic researchers and institutions. Even if it may be extremely difficult to stop or modify the experiments in progress, an immediate cessation of the use of the cell line is the correct and just action to take,” Wong added.

Acker said that when she “expressed my concerns to my primary investigator, it ended up being the end of my career in his lab.”

The baby girl behind HEK-293
Acker explained to Westen during her January 12 interview the meaning behind the letters and numbers HEK 293, the cell line developed by Dr. Frank Graham in the Netherlands in 1973.

“HEK stands for Human Embryonic Kidney. But 293 stands for the 293rd experiment that this particular researcher did to develop the cell lines.”
The kidney was taken (https://www.pdcnet.org/C1257D43006C9AB1/file/5265B61D5497F52585257D94004802BB/$FILE/ncbq_2006_0006_0003_0077_0099.pdf) from a “completely normal” preborn girl (https://www.news-medical.net/life-sciences/HEK293-Cells-Applications-and-Advantages.aspx) aborted in 1972 who, according to Alex van der Eb, the doctor leading the team to develop the cell line, had “nothing wrong” with her.

Acker said at the time to Westen that there were likely more abortions behind the final development of the cell line since “for 293 experiments you need far more than one abortion.”

“We're talking probably 100s of abortions,” she said at that time.
Graham, however, recently told Ian Jackson, who was conducting research in the HEK-293 cell line, that only one fetus was involved. 
"On my arrival at the University of Leiden in the Netherlands I kept lab books in which I numbered my experiments in the order in which I carried them out starting in 1970. None of these experiments used human embryo kidney cells (HEK) until very late in my studies in Leiden (1973) when I carried out 2 (two!) experiments that utilized kidney cells from 1 (one!) human fetus."

“Since abortion was illegal in the Netherlands at that time except to save the life of the mother I have always assumed that that fetus resulted from a therapeutic abortion. However, the kidney cells I used had been prepared and frozen away before I even arrived in Leiden. Consequently, I do not have first hand knowledge of the circuмstances relating to that single abortion. The second of the two experiments I carried out with these HEK cells was experiment 293 and resulted in the cell line of the same name. The bottom line is that the 293 cell line resulted from cells obtained from a single fetus,” Graham told Jackson, who forwarded the doctor’s statement to LifeSite.

Acker told LifeSite for this report that Graham's statement is “misleading at best.”

Dr. Plotkin tried to say something similar, that the cell lines involved in the creation of vaccines only came from two abortions. But that ignores the other 74 babies that were a part of the research he was doing. It's published in the literature (https://faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1096/fj.01-0995fje) that other HEK and HER (human embryonic retina) cell lines are attributed to Frank Graham. So his research definitely involved more than one abortion.” 

“When a cell line is developed, it is usually produced using a sample of tissue from a single individual unless it's a hybrid cell line. So on the one hand, it is technically correct to say that the cell line was developed using one aborted baby. However, this is not an accurate representation of how many lives were actually sacrificed in the whole process of developing an aborted fetal cell line," she continued. 
“If Graham wasn't just working on fetal cell lines during his time at the University of Leiden, it may not have been hundreds of abortions," she added, "but we would need to see his notebooks to know.”
Acker pointed out that there is every indication that the cells were derived from an “electively aborted” baby. 
“In particular, the fact that the cells were stored in the freezer lends further credence to the conclusion that HEK-293 was derived from an electively aborted fetus,” she said.
“The success and longevity of HEK-293 suggests that the specimen was remarkably well-suited for culturing, and anyone who has studied cell theory should know that you cannot derive a living cell culture from tissue that is already dead.  Because of the biological impossibility of creating a live cell line from dead tissue, and the practical and biological implausibility of obtaining live tissue from a spontaneously miscarried fetus, it is far more likely that the baby from whom HEK-293 was derived was electively aborted and alive at the time of tissue extraction,” she added.
Acker quoted Dr. C. Ward Kischer, an embryologist and emeritus professor of anatomy from the University of Arizona College of Medicine, who stated (https://cogforlife.org/vaccines-abortions/) the following regarding the cells obtained for aborted fetal cell lines: “In order to sustain 95% of the cells, the live tissue would need to be preserved within 5 minutes of the abortion [...] within an hour the cells would continue to deteriorate, rendering the specimen useless.”
Acker said that if the baby used in the production of HEK-293 “had already been dead (through a natural miscarriage), the tissue would certainly have been of no use to Mr. Graham in making a cell line after it had been stored in a freezer.”
She speculated that the tissue from the baby used for the production of HEK-293 was likely procured by the surgical method of whole-fetus extraction, often referred to as a C-section abortion, which can include the removal of the uterus along with the living baby still inside.
Acker quoted a 1952 study (https://www.jimmunol.org/content/69/6/645) from Dr. Thomas Weller and Dr. John Enders (among others), who were awarded the Nobel Prize in 1954 for their polio research involving growing cultures in various types of tissue, where they explained how “human embryonic tissues” were obtained for their experiments.
“This material was employed in most of the experiments. It was obtained under sterile precautions at the time of abdominal hysterotomy for therapeutic indications. Embryos of between 12 and 18 weeks’ gestation have been utilized. Rarely tissues were obtained from stillborn fetuses, or from premature infants at autopsy … In the experiments on prolonged propagation of virus, three sorts of embryonic materials were used: elements of skin, connective tissue, and muscle; intestinal tissue; brain tissue,” the researchers stated.
“Embryonic tissues were prepared in the following manner. Whenever possible the embryo was removed from the amniotic sac under sterile precautions, transferred to a sterile towel and kept at 5 C until dissected,” (bold added) they added.
Acker then quoted from Dr. Gonzalo Herranz, Professor of Histology and General Embryology at the University of Navarra, Spain, who described how abortions must be done to obtain uncontaminated fetal material in Italian scientist Pietro Croce’s book Vivisection or Science? (https://books.google.ca/books?id=pkJrAAAAMAAJ&dq=Pietro+Croce%2C+MD%2C+Vivisection+or+Science&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Caesarian) first published in English in 1991.
“To obtain embryo cells, embryos from spontaneous abortions cannot be used, nor can those obtained by means of abortions performed via the vagina: in both cases, the embryo will be contaminated by micro-organisms,” wrote Herranz.
“The correct way consists in having recourse to Caesarian section or to the removal of the uterus. Only in this way can bacteriological sterility be guaranteed. In either case, then, to obtain embryo cells for culture, a programmed abortion must be adopted, choosing the age of the embryo and dissecting it while still alive to remove tissues to be placed in culture media,” (bold added) he added.
Commented Acker: “Because of the necessity of maintaining a sterile culture of tissue for developing a cell line, it seems reasonable to conclude that there would — at minimum — had to have been some pre-arrangement to obtain sterile, unmacerated tissue from the fetus used for HEK-293.  The easiest and surest way to do this is by the surgical method of whole-fetus extraction.”
Acker’s findings relate to the findings of U.S. pro-life investigator David Daleiden, who performed an undercover investigation of Planned Parenthood’s involvement in the illegal harvesting and trafficking of aborted baby body parts. Daleiden, who began to release videos of his sting operation in 2015, uncovered that biotech companies in the United States harvested numerous organs, including “live beating” hearts from aborted babies for research (see here (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/daleiden-reveals-to-court-his-horror-of-finding-that-live-beating-heartsof-aborted-babies-were-for-sale), here (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/stemexpress-ceo-admits-selling-beating-baby-hearts-intact-baby-heads-in-daleiden-hearing), and here (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/only-hearts-harvested-from-living-babies-can-be-used-for-research-expert-tells-daleiden-hearing)).
Multiple abortions behind various aborted fetal cell lines
Acker told LifeSite for this report that the formation of other cell lines derived from aborted babies and used for research purposes and in the development of numerous vaccines involved hundreds of abortions.
“Many aborted fetal cell lines and all the aborted fetal cell lines used in currently licensed vaccines (https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/vaccineListOrigFormat.pdf) are the culmination of a series of experiments that include multiple abortions,” she said. Acker listed the following examples:
Acker said that the use of aborted fetal cell lines in medical research, at any level, “fuels a growing acceptance of using aborted babies in other types of medical research.”
“This problem is irrespective of the original number of abortions performed to obtain a cell line, and will only be exacerbated by the acceptance of HEK-293-derived COVID vaccines,” she added.
‘New pro-life movement’
Kazakhstan Bishop Athanasius Schneider, during his presentation at today’s vaccine conference, called for the formation of a “new pro-life movement” that refuses to have anything to do with medicines or vaccines derived in one way or another from aborted babies.
Schneider said that until now, the pro-life movement has been “very meritorious” in raising a united voice against abortion. “But I think there now comes a new time, a new phase, a new period of all pro-life movements to protest, clearly and unambiguously, against abortion-tainted medicines, against the abuse of the body parts of the unborn.”
While the Catholic Church’s 2020 guidelines permit (https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/docuмents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20201221_nota-vaccini-anticovid_en.html) Catholics to receive abortion-tainted vaccines, the Bishop said that Christians cannot “simply resign” themselves to the fact that the production of various medicines is tied to the slaughter of preborn babies who are utilized for their body parts.
“The voice of the unborn children’s blood is crying to God from the abortion tainted vaccines, from the abortion tainted medicines,” he said. “This voice is crying all over the world, and we have to awaken.”
“No one who is really deeply concerned about the defense of life and the moral law can be silent or can be quiet and can resign to this situation,” he added.



Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 07:15:39 PM
Why listen to these bishops when most are devil worshipping -pro abortion -child molesters who should be locked for mortal sin or accomplice to mortal sin. 
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 07:59:09 PM
Here is a podcast of Fr. Ripperger on the morality of the vaccines:

Fr. Ripperger on the Immorality of the Vaccinations - Health and Nutrition - Catholic Info (https://www.cathinfo.com/health-and-nutrition/fr-ripperger-on-the-immorality-of-the-vaccinations/)
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 08:06:21 PM
Here is a podcast of Fr. Ripperger on the morality of the ναccιnєs:

Fr. Ripperger on the Immorality of the Vaccinations - Health and Nutrition - Catholic Info (https://www.cathinfo.com/health-and-nutrition/fr-ripperger-on-the-immorality-of-the-vaccinations/)
Fr. Wolfe (FSSP) beat him to the punch.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: RomanCatholic1953 on May 12, 2021, 08:15:42 PM
Fr. Wolfe (FSSP) beat him to the punch.
Please post his webcast.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 08:22:03 PM
Please post his webcast.
https://cogforlife.org/fr-phil-wolfe/ (https://cogforlife.org/fr-phil-wolfe/)
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 08:23:18 PM
https://cogforlife.org/fr-phil-wolfe/ (https://cogforlife.org/fr-phil-wolfe/)
The Morality of using Vaccines Derived from Fetal Tissue Cultures: A Few Considerations
Fr. Phil Wolfe, FSSP
Catholics troubled by the morality of using vaccines derived from fetal tissue cultures should be mindful of the ancient axiom: Bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocuмque defectu (Goodness arises from an integral cause, evil arises from any defect whatsoever).

What does this axiom mean? It means that the moral goodness or evil of an act can be determined by a thoughtful assessment of the act itself, as well as its attending circuмstances. A good act, attended by good circuмstances, is said to have an integral cause, and thus can be safely performed by Catholics; but however admirable an act may be in other respects, if even one of the circuмstances is gravely evil, the act cannot be recommended to Catholics.

How, then, can a Catholic thoughtfully assess the morality of an act, such as these vaccinations?

He must determine the goodness by assessing the morality of the object and the circuмstances of the act.

The first consideration is to assess the moral object of the act. What is the moral object of a vaccination? Let’s use a specific example to illustrate: an immunization against Measles, Mumps and Rubella using the MMR II vaccine. Since the moral object of any act is the exterior act as proposed by reason, in this case, the moral object of the act of immunizing a child with MMR II is to give him an inoculation with this vaccine so as to induce an immune response, so that he will be immune to measles, mumps and rubella. This, in itself, is a good moral object.

The circuмstances which surround the MMR II vaccination must now be considered. The circuмstances are those things that “stand around” an act, and qualify it in some manner. There are 7 circuмstances: who, what, where, by what aid, why, how and when. (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo,q. 2, a. 6.) If all the attending circuмstances are good, or indifferent, then that act is good; that act arises from an integral cause. If one or more of the attending circuмstances are evil, then there is a defect, and the act itself is evil.

For this particular act, that of immunizing a child with MMR II, the circuмstance which deserves close scrutiny is “by what aid.” “By what aid” refers to the instrumental cause, or agent of the act, in this case the MMR II vaccine, a product produced using fetal tissue, obtained from an aborted baby, as a culture medium.

At this point a feeling of extreme unease might overcome the Catholic who is attempting to assess the morality of this procedure. He recognizes that the moral object of the act is good, to immunize a child against these diseases, and he recognizes that if all the attending circuмstances were good, he could safely conclude that this act would be good. But now he reaches the uneasy notion that this vaccine is tainted in some fashion, since it was produced using fetal tissue. May he then use it, since he is not directly approving of the abortion which made production of this vaccine possible? He wonders, does this circuмstance “by what aid” pertain here? Can he disclaim the origin of this vaccine, as some have argued, on the basis that his use would only be a remote material cooperation with the intrinsic evil of the direct abortion and use of the aborted baby’s tissue?

In order to answer these questions, he should pay thoughtful attention to the rules for restitution for a possessor in bad faith, which is to say, that he should study the “rules for returning things that he knows don’t belong to him.”

Now, in order that a Catholic get a reasonably solid grasp on the rules for restitution for a possessor in bad faith, a few illustrations will first be offered; and then the rules will be applied to the situation at hand.

Imagine a man steals his neighbor’s lawnmower. He knows full well that he has no right to this thing. This man is in bad faith. So possession in bad faith means that the man who has the goods in bad faith knows full well that they are not rightfully his.

Now, suppose that the thief sells this lawnmower to another man for a very good price, and tells him that the price is so cheap because the lawnmower is stolen. Is the man who just bought this lawnmower, knowing full well it was stolen in good faith? No, he’s also an example of possession in bad faith. Now, supposing, in either of these cases, the man who has unjust possession of this lawnmower repents: what does he have to do?

There’s one basic rule: A man in bad faith has to make restitution for ALL the foreseeable damage caused to the lawful owner. It’s easy to understand; he’s responsible for the damage, so he has to fix it.

Now what does that mean, in these cases?
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1) He has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, a stolen lawnmower.
2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value. So, even if he doesn’t have the lawnmower anymore, he still owes the poor man he stole it from either the equivalent value in money or an equivalent lawnmower.

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Now, suppose a little more complicated situation: Suppose that the original owner of the lawnmower used it for business. And now he is sitting around without his equipment, unable to work, since his mower was stolen. And suppose, again, that the thief repents. What does the thief have to do for restitution?
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1) The thief still has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, a stolen lawnmower.
2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.

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Now, he has another responsibility, since a man in bad faith has to make good for all the foreseeable damage caused to the lawful owner. And that is the third point:
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3) He has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered, in this case, the money lost from being unable to work has to be restored to the owner.
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Now suppose a even more complicated situation: suppose the thief put some work into the lawnmower; suppose that he did 3 things: he painted it, not because it needed paint but to make sure he didn’t get caught with a stolen lawnmower. Then, he had it tuned up since it was running a little rough, and this tune-up was definitely very useful. Then, since the blade was so dinged up it hardly cut, he put a new blade on the mower. And after putting all this into this stolen lawnmower, he repented. What does he have to do now?
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1) The thief still has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: the stolen lawnmower.
2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value.
3) He still has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered, in this case, the money lost from being unable to work has to be restored to the owner.
4) But this time, he can deduct any useful or necessary expenses , a useful expense improves the item; a necessary expense preserves it. For example, the tune-up was a useful expense; the new blade was a necessary expense. But the paint wasn’t either useful or necessary but only done for the sake of camouflage, so he can’t deduct that expense.

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Now, suppose an entirely different situation: Imagine a rustler who steals about 20 head of cows., and then, 2 years later, he repents. What is he responsible for?
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1) A thief has to return the thing itself, if it still exists: in this case, 20 head of cows, not bulls, not steers.
2) If it no longer exists, he has to restore the equivalent value. So, if he sold some of the cows, he has to replace that same number.
3) He has to restore the profit which the owner would have made, or reimburse him for the loss he suffered, in this case, the money lost from not having those two years of a calf-crop.
4) He can deduct any useful or necessary expenses, a useful expense improves the item; a necessary expense preserves it. For example, veterinary bills and pasturage.

Here’s the new addition:
5) He has to restore all the natural products of the property. Lawnmowers don’t have natural products. But cows do. What are natural products? Something produced naturally, by the very nature of the creature. In the case of cattle, the natural products of beef cows are calves. Milk cows, milk and calves. For an apple tree, it’s apples; for a peach tree, it’s the peaches; for a hay field, the hay, and so forth. So this rustler has to return any calves, heifers, steers or bulls born out of those 20 head since he stole them. He can’t keep them. He can’t build up a herd on stolen cattle. They have to go back; they belong to the original owner. He can’t profit on his rustling.
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Now how does all this apply to the situation with the MMR II vaccine? If a man in bad faith has to restore all the natural products of the property he has unjust possession of, how can the pharmaceutical companies possibly justify their possession of the natural product of a little baby, the tissue used to culture the vaccine; the same tissue which was, in an act of supreme injustice, carved out of the flesh of a baby? It is crystal clear that all those involved are in bad faith, and that restitution must be made; that these tissues not only not be utilized in any sort of experimentation or production at all, but that they be allowed to die. There are no provisos in the rules for restitution which could excuse a possessor in bad faith from returning his ill-gotten goods, on the condition that he could do all kinds of interesting research with his contraband. These people are in bad faith, and they are in unjust possession of someone else’s tissues without any right.

But, you say, what if the mother agreed to donate the tissue from her aborted child for research? The parents have no right to donate their aborted child for medical research. Bodily rights ultimately belong to God and when He creates us He gives us conditional rights over our bodies. Through natural death, God cedes the right over the body to the next of kin (or state if there is no next of kin). When someone is murdered, they violate not only the person’s conditional rights over their body, but they also usurp God’s rights by killing that person. God’s rights are usurped because it is ultimately God’s body to give to whom He pleases. Through natural death it is clear that God is giving the body to someone else because He has taken it from the person who had it. So in abortion, the parents have usurped rights over the child’s body which is not theirs because God did not cede the rights to them; they illicitly took them. Therefore, the parents of an aborted child or the person who murders can not use the body of the person they killed. With abortion and murder, the only way that justice is served is that the body must be buried. This in a sense gives the body back to God and it respects the right of the individual by not doing anything with the body since the person’s will regarding their body can not be ascertained.

The notion of possession in bad faith, when applied to fetal tissue culture, is only an analogical usage. Why? Because unlike the situation wherein a rustler could actually purchase the cattle he had stolen, and thus come into legitimate possession of that previously stolen livestock, no power on Earth can give anyone the right to possess, purchase or preserve tissue taken from a sacrificed baby. Human tissue obtained in such a manner is not an object of possession, and can never be an object of possession, regardless if they are producing vaccines for every disease on Earth. The evil use of fetal tissue for someone’s good cannot justify the situation: it is a screaming violation of justice. In this case, the circuмstance of “by what aid” is evil, and therefore the whole act of immunizing a child with the MMR II vaccine, as originally considered, is evil: Bonum ex integra causa, malum ex quocuмque defectu (Goodness arises from an integral cause, evil arises from any defect whatsoever).

It is immoral to knowingly use any medical products, vaccines, monoclonal antibodies, stem cells, you name it, which are derived from tissue obtained via abortion or embryonic destruction.


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Appendix: The rules for the duty of restitution.
A man may be possessed of the property of another without a just title either through an act of injustice, e.g., fraud, theft, usury, etc., or in good faith, e.g., by purchase, donation, or legacy. In the former case there is a culpa theologica, i.e., a formal violation of strict justice (iustitia commutativa), in the latter there is merely a material injustice. These two forms of unjust possession determine the manner in which restitution must be made.
The general rules for determining the duty of restitution are the following:
a) Res clamat domino, i.e., the rightful owner is entitled to his property, no matter into whose hands it may have fallen. This rule follows necessarily from the nature of property and ownership. In applying it, however, due regard must be paid to prescription, etc.
b) Res fructificat domino, i.e., the rightful owner is entitled to the fruits of his property, provided, of course, he has not ceded this right to others.
c) Res naturaliter perit domino, i.e., the right of ownership is bound up with the object owned and ceases with that object. If the object has perished, but its value continues, the original owner is entitled to the latter, as e.g., when a ton of wheat has been sold and the sum received is still in the hands of the seller. If a thing has perished not from natural causes, but through the fault of the possessor, the owner is entitled to restitution.
d) Nemo ex re aliena locupletari potest, i.e., no one has a right to enrich himself with the property of another, for the fruits of that property do not belong to the unlawful possessor but to the rightful owner.
If the possessor can not reach the owner, he must make restitution to the heirs.
The fruits of a thing (fructus rei) may be:
1) Fructus naturales, natural, i.e., derived from the thing itself (beneficio naturae) without the co-operation of man, or with but slight co-operation on his part, for example, fruits of trees, wood in a forest, grass on a meadow, milk, wool, etc.;
2) Fructus industriales, i.e., fruits of human industry or toil, such as the profits from a sale or purchase, etc.;
3) Fructus mixti, which are partly the result of industry (ex industria) and partly of the natural or artificial fertility of the property (ex re ipsa), for instance, grain, wine, etc.;
4) Fructus civiles, which are derived from an object by means of the civil law, e.g., rent, salary, etc. The latter category may be reduced to the first (fructus naturales).
I. One may be in possession of the property of another either in bad faith or in good faith. A possessor malae fidei is one who knows, or has good reason for believing, that the property he holds belongs to another. Such a one is bound to restore to the rightful owner whatever the latter has been unjustly deprived of, that is to say:
a) The stolen property itself, for res clamat domino. If the property no longer exists, its value must be restored. If it has deteriorated in value whilst under the control of the unlawful possessor, restitution must be made of the value it had when it was taken from its rightful owner. If its value has increased, it must be restored as it is, with all its fruits, for, res fructificat domino. If the stolen property fluctuated in value after the theft, the owner’s loss bust be made good, and if he intended to sell it when at its highest value, that value must be restored to him.
b) All the fruits of the property, natural, industrial, and mixed, must be restored to its owner. But any necessary or useful expensed incurred by the legitimate possessor for the preservation or improvement of the property, as well as such fruits as may be the result of special efforts on his part, may be deducted.
c) The damage suffered by the owner in consequence of being deprived of what belonged to him (damnum emergens) as well as any profits he may have lost (lucrum cessans), must also be restored to him.
(From A Handbook of Moral Theology by the Reverend Antony Koch, D.D., adapted and edited by Arthur Preuss. Volume V. Man’s Duties to His Fellowmen. B. Herder Book Company. St Louis, MO. 1933 pp. 379-383.)
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Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 12, 2021, 08:40:41 PM
Leaving aside the shocking hubris of your statement, your error seems to emanate from your confusion regarding the terminology used:

So it's hubris now to expect an explanation or an argument rather than simply accept:  "Well Sean heard from some priest in Avrille.  That settles the matter."

So the argument you're now making is one of fact, claiming that the results in the ναccιnє are the same whether used in production of testing.  Everything I've read runs totally counter to that, with the distinction being that in the one case, there are at least fragments or copies of fetal tissue actually in the ναccιnє, where in the other case, there was testing that involved these cells but none of them would have made it into the actual ναccιnєs.

In that case there's clearly a "difference" between the two.  So you can't just blanket claim that there's no difference.

Now, I hold that taking either one is gravely illicit, but they would be illicit for DIFFERENT REASONS.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 12, 2021, 09:09:13 PM
So it's hubris now to expect an explanation or an argument rather than simply accept:  "Well Sean heard from some priest in Avrille.  That settles the matter."

So the argument you're now making is one of fact, claiming that the results in the ναccιnє are the same whether used in production of testing.  Everything I've read runs totally counter to that, with the distinction being that in the one case, there are at least fragments or copies of fetal tissue actually in the ναccιnє, where in the other case, there was testing that involved these cells but none of them would have made it into the actual ναccιnєs.

In that case there's clearly a "difference" between the two.  So you can't just blanket claim that there's no difference.

Now, I hold that taking either one is gravely illicit, but they would be illicit for DIFFERENT REASONS.

Lad-

Please explain why it might be morally permissible to use a ναccιnє which destroyed abortive cells in the testing stage.

If you are going to say "remote material cooperation" can be permissible if necessity and proportionality are present (Fr. Selegny, SSPX), then please further explain:

1) How such is compatible with you claim that the sin is present and ongoing (i.e., the recipient is a direct participant in the evil);

2) Where is the proportionality?

3) Where is the necessity?
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 12, 2021, 09:26:09 PM
Lad-

Please explain why it might be morally permissible to use a ναccιnє which destroyed abortive cells in the testing stage.

If you are going to say "remote material cooperation" can be permissible if necessity and proportionality are present (Fr. Selegny, SSPX), then please further explain:

1) How such is compatible with you claim that the sin is present and ongoing (i.e., the recipient is a direct participant in the evil);

2) Where is the proportionality?

3) Where is the necessity?

I can't conclude yet whether any circuмstances might make it permissible, all I'm pointing out is that there is in fact a morally-relevant difference between taking a vaccine with aborted tissue/cells/fragments in it and taking one that does not have these, even if evil was perpetrated during the creation of the vaccine.  Those are different sets of arguments and must be treated as such.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 12, 2021, 09:41:11 PM
I can't conclude yet whether any circuмstances might make it permissible, all I'm pointing out is that there is in fact a morally-relevant difference between taking a ναccιnє with aborted tissue/cells/fragments in it and taking one that does not have these, even if evil was perpetrated during the creation of the ναccιnє.  Those are different sets of arguments and must be treated as such.

I'm not sure there is:

ναccιnє #1: We obtained cells to test this ναccιnє by murder.

ναccιnє #2: We put murdered baby cells into the ναccιnє.

The use of the cells differs, but complicity in murder is integral to both (i.e., "Yes, I know you murdered a baby to test this ναccιnє,  Please give it to me" versus "Yes, I know there are murdered baby parts in this ναccιnє.  Please give it to me").

The moral complicity seems the same to me.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 10:03:52 PM
Many thanks to the poster(s) who posted the Lifesitenews article, Fr. Ripperger & Fr. Wolfe info.  This is also an excellent talk on the issue of fetal cells used to make medical products such as vaccines: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2UDMT8WVGA

I do consider it a mortal sin to take the Covid jαb, objectively at least.  

Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 10:15:24 PM
Do any of the ναccιnєs actually *contain* aborted fetal cell tissue?  I thought they all just used them for testing?
.
Not sure if you mean some childhood vaccines etc., or if you mean the Covid jαbs.  Yes to both.  

I am going to reprint the statement from that cogforlife website someone posted earlier.  It's getting a little tiresome to have to keep re-stating this to people.  I don't know where this idea is coming from that none of them contain murdered baby cells.  

"Are аny CÖVÌD-19 "ναccιnєs" аvаilаble thаt аre nоt tested оr prоduced using а cell line derived frоm аn аbоrted child?"

"Nо, fоr nоw, аll "ναccιnєs" fоr the CÖVÌD-19 virus being distributed аre prоduced аnd/оr tested with cell lines thаt оriginаted frоm аn аbоrted child."

Maybe I ought to make this an auto-signature.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 10:17:37 PM
I consider these covid jαbs a precursor to the Мαrk оf thе Bеαst, even if they are not *THE* Мαrk оf thе Bеαst.  
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 12, 2021, 11:09:03 PM
I consider these CÖVÌD jαbs a precursor to the Мαrk оf thе Bеαst, even if they are not *THE* Мαrk оf thе Bеαst.  
👍
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Matthew on May 13, 2021, 04:45:59 AM
Many thanks to the poster(s) who posted the Lifesitenews article, Fr. Ripperger & Fr. Wolfe info.  This is also an excellent talk on the issue of fetal cells used to make medical products such as ναccιnєs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2UDMT8WVGA

I do consider it a mortal sin to take the CÖVÌD jαb, objectively at least.  



Yes, objectively it's a mortal sin, according to many modern-day Trad Catholic theologians.

It's an unnecessary grave risk to your health, for starters. Plus the issue of aborted babies being used in the production of the injections.
So it violates the Fifth Commandment in several grave ways. Possibly the First Commandment as well, as CÖVÌD is turning into a bona-fide cult. People seek the ναccιnє for safety instead of praying to God.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 13, 2021, 10:29:37 AM
I consider these CÖVÌD jαbs a precursor to the Мαrk оf thе Bеαst, even if they are not *THE* Мαrk оf thе Bеαst.  
Yes, I agree. 
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 13, 2021, 12:43:10 PM
I'm not sure there is:

ναccιnє #1: We obtained cells to test this ναccιnє by murder.

ναccιnє #2: We put murdered baby cells into the ναccιnє.

The use of the cells differs, but complicity in murder is integral to both (i.e., "Yes, I know you murdered a baby to test this ναccιnє,  Please give it to me" versus "Yes, I know there are murdered baby parts in this ναccιnє.  Please give it to me").

The moral complicity seems the same to me.

Fr. Copenhagen mentions it also.  In the case where the DNA is in the vaccine, there is an ongoing current sin which cannot be excused by way of remote or material, the abuse and theft of the bodily remains of the child.

Here's another metaphor:

1) I buy a car that was stolen from someone else.
VS.
2) I buy a car that someone repaired with stolen tools.

In case #2, my mere possession of the car is not an ongoing sin of injustice against the vehicle's owner, since the car is not stolen.  It was however made available to me through a sinful act, the theft of the tools.

In the case of abortion, however, as +Vigano and +Schneider point out, that evil is so grave that even the material cooperation with it would be a grave sin.  But scenario #1 makes the cooperation in the evil a formal one, not just a material one.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 13, 2021, 12:52:01 PM
Fr. Wolfe (FSSP) beat him to the punch.
Fr. Wolfe addresses the MMR vaccine, not the SARS2 vaxxx.
Fr. Ripperger is more compelling.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 13, 2021, 12:56:59 PM
Fr. Copenhagen mentions it also.  In the case where the DNA is in the ναccιnє, there is an ongoing current sin which cannot be excused by way of remote or material, the abuse and theft of the bodily remains of the child.

Here's another metaphor:

1) I buy a car that was stolen from someone else.
VS.
2) I buy a car that someone repaired with stolen tools.

In case #2, my mere possession of the car is not an ongoing sin of injustice against the vehicle's owner, since the car is not stolen.  It was however made available to me through a sinful act, the theft of the tools.

In the case of abortion, however, as +Vigano and +Schneider point out, that evil is so grave that even the material cooperation with it would be a grave sin.  But scenario #1 makes the cooperation in the evil a formal one, not just a material one.

So now that the core principle is laid out, let's amend #2 to make it more like our example:

2) I buy a car that someone repaired with tools that he killed someone to obtain.

So, here as we add more aggravating circuмstances, making the crime in which we're participating materially more grave, so much more grave must be the justifying reason for participating.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: Änσnymσus on May 13, 2021, 01:04:57 PM
So now that the core principle is laid out, let's amend #2 to make it more like our example:

2) I buy a car that someone repaired with tools that he killed someone to obtain.

So, here as we add more aggravating circuмstances, making the crime in which we're participating materially more grave, so much more grave must be the justifying reason for participating.
Why obscure the matter, in order to make a more compelling argument for yourself?
We aren't discussing car thefts, but abortions:
ναccιnє #1: We obtained cells to test this ναccιnє by murder.

ναccιnє #2: We put murdered baby cells into the ναccιnє.

The use of the cells differs, but complicity in murder is integral to both (i.e., "Yes, I know you murdered a baby to test this ναccιnє,  Please give it to me" versus "Yes, I know there are murdered baby parts in this ναccιnє.  Please give it to me").

The moral complicity seems the same to me.
If you want to make the car theft argument, it is only an additional, supplemental, and secondary argument: 
The real evil here is not unjust possession, but murder.
Title: Re: Is it a mortal sin to take the ναccιnє?
Post by: SeanJohnson on May 13, 2021, 01:05:16 PM
Why obscure the matter, in order to make a more compelling argument for yourself?
We aren't discussing car thefts, but abortions:
ναccιnє #1: We obtained cells to test this ναccιnє by murder.

ναccιnє #2: We put murdered baby cells into the ναccιnє.

The use of the cells differs, but complicity in murder is integral to both (i.e., "Yes, I know you murdered a baby to test this ναccιnє,  Please give it to me" versus "Yes, I know there are murdered baby parts in this ναccιnє.  Please give it to me").

The moral complicity seems the same to me.
If you want to make the car theft argument, it is only an additional, supplemental, and secondary argument:
The real evil here is not unjust possession, but murder.
That's me^^^^