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Author Topic: Invalid baptism?  (Read 2060 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Invalid baptism?
« on: November 18, 2019, 06:44:53 AM »
If a priest were baptizing a baby, and during the pronouncement of the form, attempted to pour water on the baby’s head, but because of the shape of the pouring vessel, the water only hit/flowed upon the baby’s head during the first cross (ie., in nomine patris...), but during the third cross, and possibly also during the second, the water instead of pouring out, merely ran down the side of the dish, clearly missing the baby, but from the priests angle, looked like it was pouring onto the baby, even though it wasn’t.

Would this be a valid baptism?

Doubtful or certain?

If I did a conditional baptism myself, would I sin?
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Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Invalid baptism?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2019, 07:10:01 AM »
Not sure, but if water need only flow once, why do the rubrics/rituale instruct the priest to make 3 ablutions (of which 2 would be superfluous)?
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Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Invalid baptism?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2019, 07:15:22 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous on November 18, 2019, 07:10:01 AM
Not sure, but if water need only flow once, why do the rubrics/rituale instruct the priest to make 3 ablutions (of which 2 would be superfluous)?
I don’t know the answer to this question, but I have been told by two different resistance priests that one pouring suffices for validity, and conditional baptism should not be done.
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Offline SimpleMan

Re: Invalid baptism?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2019, 08:10:34 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous on November 18, 2019, 07:10:01 AM
Not sure, but if water need only flow once, why do the rubrics/rituale instruct the priest to make 3 ablutions (of which 2 would be superfluous)?
Is it possible that, in Divine Providence, the Holy Ghost has prompted the Church to prescribe three ablutions for precisely this reason --- because one or more might "miss their mark", three ablutions conforms to the Trinitarian formula, and it is highly unlikely that all three would fail to be valid?   Many non-Catholic sects only immerse their converts a single time while they say "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit".  Very often, they omit the rudimentary genitive case that exists in English ("and of the..."), which seems unscriptural but is probably not invalid.


I have always assumed this is why three bishops are normally used for consecrating new bishops --- there could be defects in one bishop's validity (defect of rite, etc.), but highly unlikely for all three.  Some schismatic bishops "collect" multiple lineages, and undergo several sub conditione (or ad cautelam) consecrations, after their initial consecration, to ensure validity of their orders --- out of all those consecrations, one or more has to be valid.
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Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Invalid baptism?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2019, 03:18:27 PM »

Quote

Having watched the video of the baptism, it is not certain that even the first ablution flowed on skin.  You can clearly see 90%+ of the water miss the baby, and possibly, for one brief second (literally), water MAY have touched the baby, maybe, but if it did, did it pierce the hair and flow on skin???

It did look like there was a narrow dark strip of hair where water may have flowed, or was that from the cleric “drying” the head with the paper towel afterwards, but really only smearing chrism?

Is there any reason not to conditionally baptize?

We were always taught that, with regard to sacramental validity, one must take a tutiorist approach, and consequently Archbishop Lefebvre did not hesitate to conditionally ordain priest’s whose ordination in the new Rite was merely probable (ie., doubtful), but not certain.

Does not the uncertainty of the contact with flowing water make this baptism likewise doubtful?

Would I sin in such circuмstances if I conditionally baptized, rather than shrugging my shoulders, and contenting myself to accept that if my newborn son died in the next several yeRs, maybe he would go to heaven, and maybe he wouldn’t?

Seems hard to believe God would want me to take such a risk.
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