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Author Topic: Independent Priests  (Read 5865 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Independent Priests
« on: August 22, 2016, 04:13:26 PM »
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  • How can I know for sure if an "independent" Priest is a true Priest, and not just an impostor?

    Apparently, the Priest in question has been ordained by Bp. Sanborn, but I don't know how to verify this information.


    Änσnymσus

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    Independent Priests
    « Reply #1 on: August 22, 2016, 04:18:05 PM »
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  • You can ask to see his docuмentation. And then call the bishop to verify.


    Offline Matthew

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    Independent Priests
    « Reply #2 on: August 22, 2016, 05:09:02 PM »
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  • Any independent priest has to submit to this. And, frankly, this is the #1 problem with "independent priests" and "independent chapels". You have to do your homework. You have to know how well/where the priest was formed and who ordained him.

    If he wasn't validly ordained, you're wasting your time of course. It would ALWAYS, IN EVERY CASE be better to stay at home than to attend a simulated "mass".

    If he wasn't properly trained, he might have the Character of the Priesthood but not be a true priest. If he wasn't properly trained, he will teach error and eventually give bad advice, become unstable in various ways, have a poor spiritual life (even to the point of being a habitual mortal sinner) or even destroy your group.

    A man is made into a priest after 6 years of training. He learns about the spiritual life, his own weaknesses, grows in virtue, and he practices a deeper spiritual life than the average layman. After several years in the seminary, hopefully these virtuous habits will have been cemented. He has superiors who guide him and teach him; they watch him to see if he will be able to fulfill the duties and handle the challenges of being a priest.

    Many young men are dismissed during formation for various reasons. Everything from trumped-up/political reasons ("he's too Traditional", "he is against sodomy") to intellectual inadequacy, to grave reasons of moral misconduct -- and everything in between. There are many varied and legitimate reasons why a man might leave -- or be dismissed from -- a seminary before getting ordained a priest.

    The Council of Trent declared that priests would be formed in seminaries from now on for a good reason. Look up your history of the 14th and 15th centuries to see what I mean. Protip: Protestantism took root for a reason. The protestants had a fertile soil to grow in: People were scandalized by their poorly trained, ignorant, worldly, womanizing priests.

    Anyone can learn to say Mass in a couple of days. Cassocks are for sale online; you can get an adult one for under a hundred dollars. And think of all the ex-seminarians out there from all the seminaries that existed over the past 70 years. That's a lot of men with an above-average knowledge of Latin, liturgy, how priests behave, how to serve (and say) Mass, etc.

    So Traditional Catholics need to be on their guard against scammers and frauds, like Ambrose Moran. They do exist. Ambrose is not the only one.

    Any group of "ultra conservatives" is going to be more or less desperate for priests. This desperation is the opening for various con men to show up and make a good living.

    It isn't just traditional Catholics that have to watch out: any other group that is more traditional than the mainstream needs to be careful: traditional Eastern Rite, traditional Orthodox (like the groups Ambrose Moran hung around in the 80's).

    Long story short, a good, valid priest will be happy to show you his ordination certificate, and tell you which bishop ordained him. That bishop should be willing to confirm this fact, if necessary. The Faithful are only doing their job by being prudent. They can't be expected to accept every man with a cassock as a valid priest. God certainly doesn't expect them to.

    It's just business. Nothing personal against any of the true Independent priests out there.

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    Änσnymσus

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    Independent Priests
    « Reply #3 on: August 22, 2016, 05:53:02 PM »
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  • You could also start here. Especially if he's an American priest, there's a decent chance someone here knows his background.

    Änσnymσus

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    Independent Priests
    « Reply #4 on: August 22, 2016, 06:53:58 PM »
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  • Änσnymσus

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    Independent Priests
    « Reply #5 on: August 22, 2016, 07:10:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    You could also start here. Especially if he's an American priest, there's a decent chance someone here knows his background.


    It is Fr. Carlos Ercoli in Washington State

    Offline TKGS

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    Independent Priests
    « Reply #6 on: August 22, 2016, 07:16:23 PM »
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  • I think it is important to note that everything he wrote applies equally to the priests of the SSPX, the Resistance, and any other organization.  None of them have a canonical status that can automatically be trusted.  

    On the other hand, if you trust Bishop Sanborn, check the bishop's website and see if this chapel is specifically listed as a Mass center supported by the bishop.  The same could be said of the CMRI; if the chapel is listed on the CMRI website, one can reasonably trust that the priest truly, and validly, operating under the auspices of Bishop Pivarunas.  

    Unfortunately, due to their new orientation, just because a chapel appears on the SSPX website, one cannot have assurance that the priest offering Mass there is a truly valid Catholic priest.


    Änσnymσus

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    Independent Priests
    « Reply #7 on: August 22, 2016, 07:24:24 PM »
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    You could also start here. Especially if he's an American priest, there's a decent chance someone here knows his background.


    It is Fr. Carlos Ercoli in Washington State


    Should add here the Chapel is called Holy Redeemers and he just opened a second Chapel in a beautiful building that used to be Novus Ordo!


    Änσnymσus

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    Independent Priests
    « Reply #8 on: August 22, 2016, 07:50:31 PM »
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  • He is a very good priest.  I'm sure he won't have any issue with you asking.

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #9 on: August 22, 2016, 08:03:08 PM »
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  • He appears to be in good standing with Bishop Sanborn:

    http://mostholytrinityseminary.org/July_2015_Newsletter.pdf

    See the bottom photo on page 3 of the newsletter.

    Holy Redeemer chapel is Seattle is also listed as one of Bishop Sanborn's Mass centers:

    http://mostholytrinityseminary.org/masscenters.html

    I would not be concerned in the least about whether this priest is validly ordained and providing valid and licit sacraments in this Crisis.

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #10 on: August 22, 2016, 08:13:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    If he wasn't properly trained, he might have the Character of the Priesthood but not be a true priest. If he wasn't properly trained, he will teach error and eventually give bad advice, become unstable in various ways, have a poor spiritual life (even to the point of being a habitual mortal sinner) or even destroy your group...


    ...And then get elected pope!   :laugh1:


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #11 on: August 22, 2016, 09:05:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    I think it is important to note that everything he wrote applies equally to the priests of the SSPX, the Resistance, and any other organization.  None of them have a canonical status that can automatically be trusted.  

    Unfortunately, due to their new orientation, just because a chapel appears on the SSPX website, one cannot have assurance that the priest offering Mass there is a truly valid Catholic priest.


    In theory, you can't trust the neo-SSPX as a stamp of validity.

    HOWEVER, any priest that was part of the SSPX you can certainly trust (to be valid) and most traditional Catholics naturally agree with this. Even the lions share of sedevacantists admit the "Catholicity" and validity of the SSPX priests, even if they disagreed with them on some things. (Even if they prefer to go to Mass somewhere other than the SSPX.)

    Anyone with common sense and an objective view of things admits the validity of the 4 +Lefebvre line bishops, and most will also admit the decent training received at SSPX seminaries.

    It's easy enough to know if a priest is SSPX or neo-SSPX -- when was he ordained? No SSPX priest is a mystery man. There are back issues of the Verbum, countless Catholics that attended the ordinations ceremony each year, etc. In short, there is plenty of evidence and no fear of invalidity there.
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    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #12 on: August 23, 2016, 06:17:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: TKGS
    I think it is important to note that everything he wrote applies equally to the priests of the SSPX, the Resistance, and any other organization.  None of them have a canonical status that can automatically be trusted.  

    Unfortunately, due to their new orientation, just because a chapel appears on the SSPX website, one cannot have assurance that the priest offering Mass there is a truly valid Catholic priest.


    In theory, you can't trust the neo-SSPX as a stamp of validity.

    HOWEVER, any priest that was part of the SSPX you can certainly trust (to be valid).


    Of course, this is correct.  If the priest was ordained in the SSPX, he is certainly valid.  Unfortunately, the SSPX has allowed Conciliar priests to say Mass at SSPX chapels and they no longer have a policy of requiring a conditional ordination of all Conciliar priests who leave the Novus Ordo and come to the SSPX.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Independent Priests
    « Reply #13 on: August 23, 2016, 08:03:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: TKGS
    I think it is important to note that everything he wrote applies equally to the priests of the SSPX, the Resistance, and any other organization.  None of them have a canonical status that can automatically be trusted.  

    Unfortunately, due to their new orientation, just because a chapel appears on the SSPX website, one cannot have assurance that the priest offering Mass there is a truly valid Catholic priest.


    In theory, you can't trust the neo-SSPX as a stamp of validity.

    HOWEVER, any priest that was part of the SSPX you can certainly trust (to be valid).


    Of course, this is correct.  If the priest was ordained in the SSPX, he is certainly valid.  Unfortunately, the SSPX has allowed Conciliar priests to say Mass at SSPX chapels and they no longer have a policy of requiring a conditional ordination of all Conciliar priests who leave the Novus Ordo and come to the SSPX.


    Not sure where you heard that the SSPX no longer have that policy, but unless they recently changed that too, their policy has always been to investigate each case individually - it's been that way since day one.

    Quote
    Source
    Ought priests of the Conciliar Church to be “re-ordained” when they come to Tradition?

    More and more priests ordained in the new rite are turning to the traditional Mass. However, since it is now nearly 40 years since the new rite of ordination was introduced, some traditional Catholics question the validity of their ordination and hesitate to receive the sacraments from them. Each case is different in practice, it is true, and is to be decided by the superiors.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #14 on: August 23, 2016, 01:21:56 PM »
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  • I remember in the early 2000's Bishop Williamson conditionally ordained one priest; I could tell that the priest wasn't jumping up and down excited about it -- he kind of brushed it off. If I asked him, he would have said his first (original) ordination was valid.

    But this was Bishop Williamson. Isn't it predictable that he would have leaned towards conditionally ordaining every priest -- and now the neo-SSPX leans towards conditionally ordaining no priests at all.

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