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Author Topic: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.  (Read 6374 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2024, 08:37:37 PM »
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  • Quote
    I once made a confession and mentioned to the priest that I had seen some images on the internet with female nudity, but that I had not consented to any impurity. He considered it a mortal sin without making any further inquiries.
    If you didn't consent, then there's no need to confess it.  The priest probably assumed you were confessing a sin.  He can't read your mind. 


    You have to judge yourself and pray for a pure conscience.  


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #16 on: January 31, 2024, 11:28:28 PM »
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  • Some of us enjoy anonymous posting because we get to judge the idea of something not based on respect of persons but solely from the idea itself.

    Does anyone know how to block specific website? I am unsure how to do this. If I can block 4chan it will stop be from going to it out of habit, the extra barrier should be enough to help.
    Do you have someone else who can set up a block for you? It's hard to block something from yourself, but if you at least make getting to the site more difficult than a click or two, it might make you think before going there.

    Install a blocker with a long override password. Write the password only on paper. Put the password somewhere distant from where you'd normally want to use it.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson


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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #17 on: February 01, 2024, 02:11:26 AM »
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  • St Mathew 5:28



    Douay-Rheims Bible
    But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart. 

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #18 on: February 01, 2024, 03:51:28 AM »
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  • The example the priest gave you illustrates what he understood about your situation:

    "He said as an example that if a woman in a bikini pops up and I click on it, I am already committing a mortal sin."

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #19 on: February 01, 2024, 04:06:45 AM »
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  • Some of us enjoy anonymous posting because we get to judge the idea of something not based on respect of persons but solely from the idea itself.

    Does anyone know how to block specific website? I am unsure how to do this. If I can block 4chan it will stop be from going to it out of habit, the extra barrier should be enough to help.
    Even simple programs like Net Nanny can block websites. I am not fooled by your pretended innocence. 4 chan is total filth and no man has a legitimite need to post ideas there.   If you care about saving your soul you'll block every image from the internet. You are willfully consenting to see it popup on your screen by continuing to go to that site. If you need software to prevent you from going to that site you are already addicted to the porn.


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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #20 on: February 01, 2024, 04:15:41 AM »
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  • Even simple programs like Net Nanny can block websites. I am not fooled by your pretended innocence. 4 chan is total filth and no man has a legitimite need to post ideas there.  If you care about saving your soul you'll block every image from the internet. You are willfully consenting to see it popup on your screen by continuing to go to that site. If you need software to prevent you from going to that site you are already addicted to the porn.
    Slander. I stopped looking at porn before I became Catholic. I only use 4chan board where porn is not allowed as per the rules, though I will find a way to block the entire site.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #21 on: February 01, 2024, 06:03:49 AM »
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  • I once made a confession and mentioned to the priest that I had seen some images on the internet with female nudity, but that I had not consented to any impurity. He considered it a mortal sin without making any further inquiries.

    He said as an example that if a woman in a bikini pops up and I click on it, I am already commiting a mortal sin.

    I discussed it no further and simply accepted what he as saying.

    But I have read a lot of old, pre-council Moral Theology manuals, and they all say that immodesty is different from impurity. I mean, I can look at a nude woman and not commit a mortal sin, if it is not a proximate occasion of sin to me and if I don't consent to any impurity.

    It is always a mortal sin to put yourself in a proximate occasion of sins of impurity, this much I know.

    The issue is that there are degrees to remote and proximate occasions of sin, and it largely depends on the individual and the circuмstances.

    My take is that the priest is being a rigorist, or is being overly simplistic because he probably thinks that I don't have a deep Moral Theology understanding.

    It is obviously better not to look at nude people, but I think that it is important to be able to differ mortal and venial sin.

    This is annonymous because I think that it is inappropriate to disclose our confessions.

    I would appreciate comments and discussion from people who have a deeper knowledge of Moral Theology.

    IMO, I agree with you that this priest is wrong.  It's this type of thing that creates scrupulosity.  I would agree with nearly all of your analysis in general, though I haven't carefully read every word of it.

    I'd like to know where this priest was trained, i.e., by which Traditional group.

    No, simply seeing a nude woman is not a mortal sin.  This priest made no allowance for whether the image simply popped up somewhere or whether you deliberately sought it out, and, as you mention, whether such images constitute a remote or a proximate occasion of grave sin for you.  Being subjected to a proximate occasion of sin is grave matter, unless there's proportionately grave reason to enter the occasion, e.g. to help save someone life or for a doctor to see a patient nude, etc.  Subjecting oneself to a remote occasion of sin requires proportionately less justification.  And, indeed, whether an occasion of sin is remote or proximate depends largely on the individual.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #22 on: February 01, 2024, 06:16:54 AM »
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  • In defense of the Priest, most often he will not have the time to try to extract every detail and nuance; when you bring up something touching upon impurity he's likely to assume that you are bringing it up because it was a mortal sin and that you are having trouble clearly expressing it as such.

    While the priest won't try to extract every nuance, it's his obligation to make the determination regarding mortal vs. venial sin and to guide the penitent accordingly.  If he doesn't know due to lack of detail, and perhaps is in a hurry (has a line of 20 people to get through before Mass), he's better off not making a comment than simply declaring it to be mortal sin and potentially cause serious damage to an individual who may, for instance, already be prone to scruples.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #23 on: February 01, 2024, 06:20:22 AM »
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  • The example the priest gave you illustrates what he understood about your situation:

    "He said as an example that if a woman in a bikini pops up and I click on it, I am already committing a mortal sin."

    He's wrong even there.  Even clicking on an image out of an impure curiosity isn't inherently a grave sin, but could be a venial sin borne of an impure curiosity, and may in fact be done without sufficient advertance and an act of the will.  If an individual finds himself clicking on such image often, and these images can easily lead to grave sins of impure/lustful thoughts, then that would be a different matter.  Many scrupulous individuals feel that if they take a second glance at something it's automatically a mortal sin, but that is not necessarily the case.  Grave sin of impurity entails deliberately (an act of the will) taking venereal impure pleasure in the thoughts / feelings.

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #24 on: February 01, 2024, 06:56:35 AM »
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  • Taken on its own, I would consider this venial.  

    But is it possible that this priest's response was due to knowing the other sins committed and confessed at the time?  Or is this sin supposed to be taken by itself?  In other words, can something like this (clicking on a sexy image, taking the bait as it were) be more than a venial sin for someone who has a tendency to mortally sin otherwise?  

    It seems to me that we should give the priest the benefit of the doubt as we don't know all that happened in the confessional.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #25 on: February 01, 2024, 07:01:53 AM »
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  • Taken on its own, I would consider this venial. 

    But is it possible that this priest's response was due to knowing the other sins committed and confessed at the time?  Or is this sin supposed to be taken by itself?  In other words, can something like this (clicking on a sexy image, taking the bait as it were) be more than a venial sin for someone who has a tendency to mortally sin otherwise? 

    It seems to me that we should give the priest the benefit of the doubt as we don't know all that happened in the confessional.

    Perhaps, but we don't know the priest's name, and there's no harm in discussing the question based on the parameters laid out by the OP.  There are priests out there who are not properly trained in moral theology, and some who impose some of their own scrupulous attitudes (there are priest, too, who suffer from scruples) onto the consciences of others.

    I'd like to at least know which group this priest belongs to, because it could cast aspersions on the quality of the seminary training there.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #26 on: February 01, 2024, 07:07:52 AM »
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  • My take is that the priest is being a rigorist, or is being overly simplistic because he probably thinks that I don't have a deep Moral Theology understanding.

    It is obviously better not to look at nude people, but I think that it is important to be able to differ mortal and venial sin.

    I've heard it repeated that sin is sin and that all sin should be avoid, whether venial or mortal.  While that's true on some level, I agree that it is important to differentiate, for several reasons.  Penitents are required to confess all mortal sins, but not all venial sins, so it's important to know those which have to be confessed.  But it also can have adverse effects on how people form their consciences and could harm individuals who are already prone to scrupulosity (which can cause serious damage to souls) and could also create scrupulosity in individuals.  If I convince someone that something is a mortal sin when it isn't (say, if I tell them it's mortal sin to eat a piece of candy on Good Friday), then if that person (convinced of this), eats a piece of candy on Good Friday, he would in fact be committing a mortal sin (formally).  There's a reason that the moral theology manuals go to great lengths to distinguish between mortal and venial sin.  If it didn't matter at all, then why bother with such distinctions?

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #27 on: February 01, 2024, 07:21:31 AM »
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  • Perhaps, but we don't know the priest's name, and there's no harm in discussing the question based on the parameters laid out by the OP.  There are priests out there who are not properly trained in moral theology, and some who impose some of their own scrupulous attitudes (there are priest, too, who suffer from scruples) onto the consciences of others.

    I'd like to at least know which group this priest belongs to, because it could cast aspersions on the quality of the seminary training there.
    But if he himself is scrupulous then finding out where he went to seminary would only cast false aspersions on the quality of the training there.  

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #28 on: February 01, 2024, 08:11:59 AM »
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  • Why would someone confess something that they already believe to not be a sin?

     

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    Re: Immodest looks and remote occasions of sin mentioned on confession.
    « Reply #29 on: February 01, 2024, 08:42:10 AM »
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  • Why would someone confess something that they already believe to not be a sin?

    That’s an ignorant thing to say.