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Author Topic: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..  (Read 8559 times)

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Offline apollo

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Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2019, 06:42:18 AM »
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  • The above reply about Dr. Mendelsohn is mine.
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    Apollo

    Offline apollo

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #16 on: July 01, 2019, 06:46:26 AM »
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  • http://whale.to/vaccines/mendelsohn2.html
    .
    The above link takes you to more useful information about
    Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, MD.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #17 on: July 01, 2019, 07:17:56 AM »
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  • Whether they use NFP or not, they are not allowed to use artificial contraception.

    Uhm, that's a given on this Catholic forum.  Go preach this in your Novus Ordo circles.  Question is whether it's permitted to use non-artficial means to limit children.  This modernist harping on "artificial contraception" is actually code-word for encouraging NFP and other means to limit one's family, i.e. the use of natural contraception.  What you're saying is, in essence, hey as long as you avoid "artificial contraception," you can do whatever you want.  You're causing scandal by encouraging this sinful behavior.  I think that the banning of poche is long overdue.

    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #18 on: July 01, 2019, 07:43:15 AM »
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  • Uhm, that's a given on this Catholic forum.  Go preach this in your Novus Ordo circles.  Question is whether it's permitted to use non-artficial means to limit children.  This modernist harping on "artificial contraception" is actually code-word for encouraging NFP and other means to limit one's family, i.e. the use of natural contraception.  What you're saying is, in essence, hey as long as you avoid "artificial contraception," you can do whatever you want.  You're causing scandal by encouraging this sinful behavior.  I think that the banning of poche is long overdue.
    Voluntary abstinence during fertile periods is no different from contraception. Abstinence itself is a neutral act, deliberately choosing it because there might be a baby (shock horror!) is an act of the will, and thus contra (contrary) to conception = contraception. God established matrimony for the procreation of children, so throw out those charts and poche’s liberal ideology. 
    God will send children when He sees fit. Stop worrying about it. If you don’t want a large family, are afraid of having babies, or think your 401K, “me time”, annual vacations, or a yacht are more important: don’t get married. It’s fairly simple. 
    Please disregard everything I have said; I have tended to speak before fact checking.

    Offline apollo

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #19 on: July 01, 2019, 07:54:23 AM »
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  • What you're saying is, in essence, hey as long as you avoid "artificial contraception," you can do whatever you want.  
    You're causing scandal by encouraging this sinful behavior.  I think that the banning of poche is long overdue.
    I have never heard that abstaining is sinful (as long as both people agree).
    Do you have any references for this?


    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #20 on: July 01, 2019, 09:06:07 AM »
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  • I have never heard that abstaining is sinful (as long as both people agree).
    Do you have any references for this?
    As I said above, abstinence is a neutral action, deliberately withholding, denying, or abstaining because of fertility is at the end of the day no different from using artificial contraception because it’s moving the will to NOT have a child. And this is not the design of marriage, where the first purpose of marriage is procreation and education of children. The act needs to be left up for God Almighty to decide whether or not a child will come of it. 
    Please disregard everything I have said; I have tended to speak before fact checking.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #21 on: July 01, 2019, 09:09:48 AM »
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  • As I said above, abstinence is a neutral action, deliberately withholding, denying, or abstaining because of fertility is at the end of the day no different from using artificial contraception because it’s moving the will to NOT have a child. And this is not the design of marriage, where the first purpose of marriage is procreation and education of children. The act needs to be left up for God Almighty to decide whether or not a child will come of it.
    Reference please.  Your opinion is not the same as Church law.
    St Joseph refused to fulfill the marriage debt, by an act of his will.

    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #22 on: July 01, 2019, 10:22:58 AM »
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  • Reference please.  Your opinion is not the same as Church law.
    St Joseph refused to fulfill the marriage debt, by an act of his will.
    Here: you can go argue with Fr Scott if you want past this. As he states: the Church only allows it for incredibly serious reasons. Many doctors these days tell women that another pregnancy will kill them and it’s totally unfounded and in reality many of these women don’t actually have serious reason. However he also stated that NFP comes from contraceptive mentalities whether the Church permits it in extreme cases or not. Were a couple to mutually decide to abstain (say for Lent) that’s a different story. The MOTIVE behind the abstinence is key here. Is it for resorting to prayer and fasting, as a penance or is it because oh gee we just don’t want another kid? We’ve lost the Catholic mentality of what a family is. Large Catholic families should be normal, but of course opening up to the world and allowing couples their “Catholic birth control” has stopped this from happening. Married couple have been given a sacrament! Religious sisters and brothers, third order members, confraternity members don’t get a special sacrament, but married couples do, and when they receive that from God, shouldn’t they return the favour by giving back to Him what he asks of them, ie, children to populate Heaven?

    As it stands, I’m 28 years old, I’m been married for 5.5 years, and my 4th child was born less then three week ago. And I can tell you from experience that when you follow the laws that’s God has established for marriage, he rewards you tenfold what you give back. Don’t tell me “I can’t afford children” unless you are actually truly unable to hold a job. Catholics shouldn’t buy into worldly lies about marriage and family life.

    Is a marriage valid if a couple agrees beforehand to limit the number of children by artificial birth control or Natural Family Planning?
    The Church’s teaching is summarized in canon 1013 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which states that "the primary end of marriage is the procreation and education of children." The intention of having children, provided that this is possible, is consequently essential to the very substance of the matrimonial contract, which is for "acts which are in themselves capable of engendering children" (cf. canon 1081, 1917 Code of Canon Law).
    The importance of children as the primary end of marriage was again stressed by the Holy Office under Pope Pius XII:
    To the question: "Whether the views of certain recent writers can be admitted, who either deny that the primary end of marriage is the procreation and education of children, or teach that the secondary ends are not necessarily subordinate to the primary end, but are equally principal and independent," the reply was: In the negative (quoted in Bouscaren & Ellis, Canon Law, p.400).
    Yet the 1983 Code of Canon Law embraces the personalist conception condemned less than 40 years earlier by not only placing the two ends of marriage on an equal and independent level, but even listing first the secondary end (i.e., mutual support, or the personal good of the spouses):
    Quote
    The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered towards the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring (canon 1055, §1, 1983 Code of Canon Law).
    It is ultimately this new concept of marriage, as being for the couple themselves, and not so much for children, which has resulted in the refusal of Catholics since Vatican II to have large families. Artificial birth control, which is the destruction of Catholic families, is no longer condemned as a mortal sin, for marriage is now considered in a selfish way, as being for the couple itself, rather than an outpouring of love desiring to participate in God’s work of creation and sanctification of His children. The so-called practice of Natural Family Planning (NFP), propagated in the post-Conciliar Church as a "Catholic" method of contraception, derives also from the same contraceptive mentality. Since marriage is considered primarily for the couple itself, they consider themselves free to determine the number of children and their spacing. This can be a mortal sin if NFP is employed without sufficient reason, as approved by the Church (e.g., serious eugenic, social, or medical reasons, such as danger to the life of the mother through additional children). Whether it be through artificial or natural means that the first purpose of marriage is frustrated, such couples who are not willing to accept all the children God sends them do indeed fail to live up to their marriage vows.
    However, this does not mean the marriage vows with the condition of limiting children by artificial contraception or natural family planning are necessarily invalid. The exclusion of children is certainly a grounds for a declaration of nullity, but only when there is an explicit, provable, and positive act of the will to avoid children, that is, only when the obligation of having children, as being the fulfillment of the first purpose of marriage, is explicitly excluded. For this is an intention contrary to the substance of marriage itself. The difficulty in such cases is to determine whether it is the obligation of having children which is refused, or whether it is simply the fulfillment of this obligation (cf. Bouscaren, Canon Law Digest, I, pp. 532,533).
    Those couples who accept the obligation of having children are certainly validly married, even if they do not always fulfill this obligation, e.g., by limiting the number of their children. This is the case of those selfish couples, without faith in Divine Providence, who are determined to limit the size of their family for reasons of convenience or simply because they prefer it that way. They commit a grave sin, even if it is by NFP that they presume to do this. They are truly married, but they will never be able to communicate to their children generosity, the spirit of sacrifice, the love of the Cross, of souls and the Church.
    Moreover, even if a couple deliberately excludes all children, the Church always presumes, until proven otherwise, that it is the fulfillment of the duty that is excluded, and not the obligation of having children itself, and that consequently the marriage is valid.  [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]
    Please disregard everything I have said; I have tended to speak before fact checking.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #23 on: July 01, 2019, 02:25:52 PM »
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  • Here: you can go argue with Fr Scott if you want past this. As he states: the Church only allows it for incredibly serious reasons.
    OK, I respect Fr Peter Scott, except on the subject of vaccinations.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #24 on: July 01, 2019, 05:22:08 PM »
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  • As I said above, abstinence is a neutral action, deliberately withholding, denying, or abstaining because of fertility is at the end of the day no different from using artificial contraception because it’s moving the will to NOT have a child. And this is not the design of marriage, where the first purpose of marriage is procreation and education of children. The act needs to be left up for God Almighty to decide whether or not a child will come of it.
    I completely agree. NFP is a sinful misuse of our knowledge and is contraception in all but chemical content.  
    God designed marriage, intimacy and our purpose as women to welcome his gift of life in the womb not to try and render intimacy infertile. 

    Offline SusanneT

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #25 on: July 01, 2019, 05:23:55 PM »
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  • Sorry I didn’t intend that post to be anonymous. As a wife and mother I am very happy to proclaim it to the world ! 


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #26 on: July 01, 2019, 05:44:09 PM »
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  • I have never heard that vegetarians have easy births. That's a new one on me. Evidence?


    Anonymous of reply 14: Nothing of what wrote answers my question so I wonder why you quoted me.
    What have ultra sound scans have to do with vegetarianism? Not that I dispute what Dr M says.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline apollo

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #27 on: July 01, 2019, 05:54:38 PM »
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  • Anonymous of reply 14: Nothing of what wrote answers my question so I wonder why you quoted me.
    What have ultra sound scans have to do with vegetarianism? Not that I dispute what Dr M says.
    That was my reply.  I forget to check the stupid little box.
    I did reply in the paragraph below the video image.
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    Dr Mendelsohn said in a talk that I listened to:
    "Vegetarian women have easier and quicker childbirths".
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    The other stuff was to shown that he is not afraid to tell
    the truth (unlike other doctors). 
    .
    I don't know the biochemical reason for his statement.
    He did not mention that.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #28 on: July 01, 2019, 08:32:58 PM »
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  • Thank you, Apollo. So no evidence. Just hearsay at this point. If you dig some up let me know and I'll do the same.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
    « Reply #29 on: July 01, 2019, 09:10:55 PM »
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  • Thank you, Apollo. So no evidence. Just hearsay at this point. If you dig some up let me know and I'll do the same.
    I have heard this from other sources also, but cannot remember who said it,
    as it was about 1985 when I was interested in this subject.
    .
    I would not call it "just hearsay" if Dr Mendelsohn said it.
    I found this online, about him:
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    "For 12 years he was an instructor at Northwest University Medical College,
    and an additional 12 years served as Associate Professor of Pediatrics and
    Community Health and Preventive Medicine at the University of Illinois College
    of Medicine."