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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on June 23, 2019, 07:34:52 AM

Title: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on June 23, 2019, 07:34:52 AM
like because of preeclampsia or severe hemorrhaging during birth, would that be a valid reason to space out the number of children, or not have anymore?

thanks and God bless
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2019, 08:01:32 AM
90% of the time that doctors say this, it's nonsense.  I've known people who were told this who went on to have several more children.  They do it to cover their butts.

In the event that it's true, it's reason to abstain and not have any more children, but not to "space them out".  Lethal is lethal, right?  So what does that have to do with spacing them out?

This is just an excuse people use to justify NFP.  Either you can have more children or you can't.  There's no such thing as having to have fewer children.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on June 23, 2019, 12:46:48 PM
90% of the time that doctors say this, it's nonsense.  I've known people who were told this who went on to have several more children.  They do it to cover their butts.

In the event that it's true, it's reason to abstain and not have any more children, but not to "space them out".  Lethal is lethal, right?  So what does that have to do with spacing them out?

This is just an excuse people use to justify NFP.  Either you can have more children or you can't.  There's no such thing as having to have fewer children.
^This.  Well said.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Mega-fin on June 23, 2019, 01:36:59 PM
90% of the time that doctors say this, it's nonsense.  I've known people who were told this who went on to have several more children.  They do it to cover their butts.

In the event that it's true, it's reason to abstain and not have any more children, but not to "space them out".  Lethal is lethal, right?  So what does that have to do with spacing them out?

This is just an excuse people use to justify NFP.  Either you can have more children or you can't.  There's no such thing as having to have fewer children.
Exactly. There have been tons of women who have been told by doctors that they HAD to be sterilized after their second child. And how many times was this for nothing at all? The ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic forces want to reduce the population of the world and have publicly admitted it. Why would we not be surprised when doctors have tried to force sterilize women? I’m sure we’ve all met women especially Catholic women who have been told that another baby would kill them and another baby came and everything was perfectly fine. Trust God. If another baby is His plan, the baby should come and have no obstacles. 
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on June 23, 2019, 03:10:29 PM
90% of the time that doctors say this, it's nonsense.  I've known people who were told this who went on to have several more children.  They do it to cover their butts.

In the event that it's true, it's reason to abstain and not have any more children, but not to "space them out".  Lethal is lethal, right?  So what does that have to do with spacing them out?

This is just an excuse people use to justify NFP.  Either you can have more children or you can't.  There's no such thing as having to have fewer children.

Doctors have proven that they do not know if this is true or not - God knows if it's true, only God knows, no one else knows. Yes, Doctors cover their butts, and unlike a broken clock, the doctor might actually be correct 50% of the time, but when it comes to this, God said to multiply - period.

The couple cannot abstain based on this opinion of the doctor without sinning. If they ever abstain from the act, it can only be for reasons that promote the greater glory of God - this is not one of those reasons. Using that reasoning, why would not  contraception/abortion be an acceptable option if saving the life of the mother is what matters?    

Preeclampsia or severe hemorrhaging during birth does not even equate to a certain death sentence to the mother or child and in fact many women experience this during birth and pull through just fine. Even were the doctor to say "your next child means certain death for the mother or child", that is still not sufficient reason to abstain, least ways not without permission from the Church.  

Somehow, the husband and his needs are entirely forgotten in all of this.

Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on June 23, 2019, 05:19:55 PM
Pre eclampsia in one pregnancy, or hemorrhaging in one birth does not mean the same in future pregnancies and births. My daughter had difficulties with her first two and no problem with her third. 

If you have genuine concerns, I suggest you make contact with a NaProTech doctor. 
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on June 23, 2019, 05:44:46 PM
Abstinence in marriage can only ever be by mutual consent.

A considerate loving husband would choose to abstain if he has a very genuine concern for his wife’s health.

Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Seraphina on June 24, 2019, 09:39:48 AM
There are countless stories like this one.  A woman was told this very thing after a difficult first pregnancy and birth of a first child. She and her husband are presently the happy parents of 16 adult children, 85 grandchildren, and 11 great grandchildren.  Too bad they're Amish, not Catholic.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: poche on June 24, 2019, 09:45:42 AM
like because of preeclampsia or severe hemorrhaging during birth, would that be a valid reason to space out the number of children, or not have anymore?

thanks and God bless
If you feel the need to "space out" or not have any more children then the method that you use for this "limitation of children" would have to exclude the use of artificial contraceptives.   
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: ByzCat3000 on June 30, 2019, 10:50:03 AM
If you feel the need to "space out" or not have any more children then the method that you use for this "limitation of children" would have to exclude the use of artificial contraceptives.  
I think the person was intending to ask if that would be a justifiable reason to use NFP.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: poche on June 30, 2019, 12:23:09 PM
I think the person was intending to ask if that would be a justifiable reason to use NFP.
Whether they use NFP or not, they are not allowed to use artificial contraception.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: forlorn on June 30, 2019, 12:26:07 PM
A serious concern that another pregnancy could be fatal is reason for a couple to agree to abstain, not a reason to use contraceptives or "space kids out". The majority of time these issues aren't fatal with modern healthcare and just mean more care is needed, doctors just advise this because most irreligious couples would rather just not have any more kids than have to go to any bit of bother dealing with pregnancy issues. I'd suggest doing research into the condition and talking to your doctor, telling them that you'd like to continue having children and what measures could be taken to ensure future pregnancies are safe for both you and the child. 
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: apollo on June 30, 2019, 11:39:03 PM
Get a second opinion from a Catholic doctor, then get a third opinion.
Doctors are not taught how to predict the future in medical school,
even though they act like it.
.
Research vegetarianism.  Vegetarian mothers are known to have
easy child births. 
.
Find a Naturopath doctor and have the birth at a mid-wife run
facility, near a hospital (in case of serious complications).  
.
Avoid labor induced medications. 
.
What is the cause of the hemorraging anyway?   Find out.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Nadir on July 01, 2019, 01:08:15 AM
Get a second opinion from a Catholic doctor, then get a third opinion.
Doctors are not taught how to predict the future in medical school,
even though they act like it.
.
Research vegetarianism.  Vegetarian mothers are known to have
easy child births.  
.
Find a Naturopath doctor and have the birth at a mid-wife run
facility, near a hospital (in case of serious complications).  
.
Avoid labor induced medications.  
.
What is the cause of the hemorraging anyway?   Find out.
I have never heard that vegetarians have easy births. That's a new one on me. Evidence?
For sure, vegetarian diet in pregnancy means taking more care to get the required vitamins, minerals.

https://thewomens.r.worldssl.net/images/uploads/fact-sheets/Vegetarian-eating-in-pregnancy.pdf


(http://cid:96F03855-B5BE-4FBE-A710-660CB6D688EE)


Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on July 01, 2019, 06:41:14 AM
I have never heard that vegetarians have easy births. That's a new one on me. Evidence?
https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Medical-Heretic-Robert-Mendelsohn/dp/B009CN34GS (https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Medical-Heretic-Robert-Mendelsohn/dp/B009CN34GS)
.
Confessions Of A Medical Heretic (https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Medical-Heretic-Robert-Mendelsohn/dp/B009CN34GS)
by Robert S Mendelsohn, MD
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX55jxcnEKo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX55jxcnEKo)
Long video (may not contain anything on pregnancy).
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxoOVC6S7TQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxoOVC6S7TQ)
Short video on pregnancy and the dangers of ultrasound.
.
Dr Mendelsohn was highly regarded for telling the truth about
dangers to women during pregnancy and child birth.  He
recommended that you hire a midwife instead of a doctor to
assist at the birth.  He also said that vegetarian women are
known to have easier child births (in a talk that I heard).
.
In a birthing class that I attended, given by the president of
The American Natural Hygiene Society, Dr. Alec Burton, he
talked about the harmful practices used in hospitals for
childbirths.  He said the best position for childbirth is the
squat position, because gravity makes life easier for the
woman.  Gravity is also useful for removing and fluid in
the baby's throat. 
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: apollo on July 01, 2019, 06:42:18 AM
The above reply about Dr. Mendelsohn is mine.
.
Apollo
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: apollo on July 01, 2019, 06:46:26 AM
http://whale.to/vaccines/mendelsohn2.html (http://whale.to/vaccines/mendelsohn2.html)
.
The above link takes you to more useful information about
Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, MD.

Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Ladislaus on July 01, 2019, 07:17:56 AM
Whether they use NFP or not, they are not allowed to use artificial contraception.

Uhm, that's a given on this Catholic forum.  Go preach this in your Novus Ordo circles.  Question is whether it's permitted to use non-artficial means to limit children.  This modernist harping on "artificial contraception" is actually code-word for encouraging NFP and other means to limit one's family, i.e. the use of natural contraception.  What you're saying is, in essence, hey as long as you avoid "artificial contraception," you can do whatever you want.  You're causing scandal by encouraging this sinful behavior.  I think that the banning of poche is long overdue.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Mega-fin on July 01, 2019, 07:43:15 AM
Uhm, that's a given on this Catholic forum.  Go preach this in your Novus Ordo circles.  Question is whether it's permitted to use non-artficial means to limit children.  This modernist harping on "artificial contraception" is actually code-word for encouraging NFP and other means to limit one's family, i.e. the use of natural contraception.  What you're saying is, in essence, hey as long as you avoid "artificial contraception," you can do whatever you want.  You're causing scandal by encouraging this sinful behavior.  I think that the banning of poche is long overdue.
Voluntary abstinence during fertile periods is no different from contraception. Abstinence itself is a neutral act, deliberately choosing it because there might be a baby (shock horror!) is an act of the will, and thus contra (contrary) to conception = contraception. God established matrimony for the procreation of children, so throw out those charts and poche’s liberal ideology. 
God will send children when He sees fit. Stop worrying about it. If you don’t want a large family, are afraid of having babies, or think your 401K, “me time”, annual vacations, or a yacht are more important: don’t get married. It’s fairly simple. 
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: apollo on July 01, 2019, 07:54:23 AM
What you're saying is, in essence, hey as long as you avoid "artificial contraception," you can do whatever you want.  
You're causing scandal by encouraging this sinful behavior.  I think that the banning of poche is long overdue.
I have never heard that abstaining is sinful (as long as both people agree).
Do you have any references for this?
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Mega-fin on July 01, 2019, 09:06:07 AM
I have never heard that abstaining is sinful (as long as both people agree).
Do you have any references for this?
As I said above, abstinence is a neutral action, deliberately withholding, denying, or abstaining because of fertility is at the end of the day no different from using artificial contraception because it’s moving the will to NOT have a child. And this is not the design of marriage, where the first purpose of marriage is procreation and education of children. The act needs to be left up for God Almighty to decide whether or not a child will come of it. 
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on July 01, 2019, 09:09:48 AM
As I said above, abstinence is a neutral action, deliberately withholding, denying, or abstaining because of fertility is at the end of the day no different from using artificial contraception because it’s moving the will to NOT have a child. And this is not the design of marriage, where the first purpose of marriage is procreation and education of children. The act needs to be left up for God Almighty to decide whether or not a child will come of it.
Reference please.  Your opinion is not the same as Church law.
St Joseph refused to fulfill the marriage debt, by an act of his will.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Mega-fin on July 01, 2019, 10:22:58 AM
Reference please.  Your opinion is not the same as Church law.
St Joseph refused to fulfill the marriage debt, by an act of his will.
Here: you can go argue with Fr Scott if you want past this. As he states: the Church only allows it for incredibly serious reasons. Many doctors these days tell women that another pregnancy will kill them and it’s totally unfounded and in reality many of these women don’t actually have serious reason. However he also stated that NFP comes from contraceptive mentalities whether the Church permits it in extreme cases or not. Were a couple to mutually decide to abstain (say for Lent) that’s a different story. The MOTIVE behind the abstinence is key here. Is it for resorting to prayer and fasting, as a penance or is it because oh gee we just don’t want another kid? We’ve lost the Catholic mentality of what a family is. Large Catholic families should be normal, but of course opening up to the world and allowing couples their “Catholic birth control” has stopped this from happening. Married couple have been given a sacrament! Religious sisters and brothers, third order members, confraternity members don’t get a special sacrament, but married couples do, and when they receive that from God, shouldn’t they return the favour by giving back to Him what he asks of them, ie, children to populate Heaven?

As it stands, I’m 28 years old, I’m been married for 5.5 years, and my 4th child was born less then three week ago. And I can tell you from experience that when you follow the laws that’s God has established for marriage, he rewards you tenfold what you give back. Don’t tell me “I can’t afford children” unless you are actually truly unable to hold a job. Catholics shouldn’t buy into worldly lies about marriage and family life.

Is a marriage valid if a couple agrees beforehand to limit the number of children by artificial birth control or Natural Family Planning?
The Church’s teaching is summarized in canon 1013 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which states that "the primary end of marriage is the procreation and education of children." The intention of having children, provided that this is possible, is consequently essential to the very substance of the matrimonial contract, which is for "acts which are in themselves capable of engendering children" (cf. canon 1081, 1917 Code of Canon Law).
The importance of children as the primary end of marriage was again stressed by the Holy Office under Pope Pius XII:
To the question: "Whether the views of certain recent writers can be admitted, who either deny that the primary end of marriage is the procreation and education of children, or teach that the secondary ends are not necessarily subordinate to the primary end, but are equally principal and independent," the reply was: In the negative (quoted in Bouscaren & Ellis, Canon Law, p.400).
Yet the 1983 Code of Canon Law embraces the personalist conception condemned less than 40 years earlier by not only placing the two ends of marriage on an equal and independent level, but even listing first the secondary end (i.e., mutual support, or the personal good of the spouses):
Quote
The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered towards the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring (canon 1055, §1, 1983 Code of Canon Law).
It is ultimately this new concept of marriage, as being for the couple themselves, and not so much for children, which has resulted in the refusal of Catholics since Vatican II to have large families. Artificial birth control, which is the destruction of Catholic families, is no longer condemned as a mortal sin, for marriage is now considered in a selfish way, as being for the couple itself, rather than an outpouring of love desiring to participate in God’s work of creation and sanctification of His children. The so-called practice of Natural Family Planning (NFP), propagated in the post-Conciliar Church as a "Catholic" method of contraception, derives also from the same contraceptive mentality. Since marriage is considered primarily for the couple itself, they consider themselves free to determine the number of children and their spacing. This can be a mortal sin if NFP is employed without sufficient reason, as approved by the Church (e.g., serious eugenic, social, or medical reasons, such as danger to the life of the mother through additional children). Whether it be through artificial or natural means that the first purpose of marriage is frustrated, such couples who are not willing to accept all the children God sends them do indeed fail to live up to their marriage vows.
However, this does not mean the marriage vows with the condition of limiting children by artificial contraception or natural family planning are necessarily invalid. The exclusion of children is certainly a grounds for a declaration of nullity, but only when there is an explicit, provable, and positive act of the will to avoid children, that is, only when the obligation of having children, as being the fulfillment of the first purpose of marriage, is explicitly excluded. For this is an intention contrary to the substance of marriage itself. The difficulty in such cases is to determine whether it is the obligation of having children which is refused, or whether it is simply the fulfillment of this obligation (cf. Bouscaren, Canon Law Digest, I, pp. 532,533).
Those couples who accept the obligation of having children are certainly validly married, even if they do not always fulfill this obligation, e.g., by limiting the number of their children. This is the case of those selfish couples, without faith in Divine Providence, who are determined to limit the size of their family for reasons of convenience or simply because they prefer it that way. They commit a grave sin, even if it is by NFP that they presume to do this. They are truly married, but they will never be able to communicate to their children generosity, the spirit of sacrifice, the love of the Cross, of souls and the Church.
Moreover, even if a couple deliberately excludes all children, the Church always presumes, until proven otherwise, that it is the fulfillment of the duty that is excluded, and not the obligation of having children itself, and that consequently the marriage is valid.  [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on July 01, 2019, 02:25:52 PM
Here: you can go argue with Fr Scott if you want past this. As he states: the Church only allows it for incredibly serious reasons.
OK, I respect Fr Peter Scott, except on the subject of vaccinations.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on July 01, 2019, 05:22:08 PM
As I said above, abstinence is a neutral action, deliberately withholding, denying, or abstaining because of fertility is at the end of the day no different from using artificial contraception because it’s moving the will to NOT have a child. And this is not the design of marriage, where the first purpose of marriage is procreation and education of children. The act needs to be left up for God Almighty to decide whether or not a child will come of it.
I completely agree. NFP is a sinful misuse of our knowledge and is contraception in all but chemical content.  
God designed marriage, intimacy and our purpose as women to welcome his gift of life in the womb not to try and render intimacy infertile. 
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: SusanneT on July 01, 2019, 05:23:55 PM
Sorry I didn’t intend that post to be anonymous. As a wife and mother I am very happy to proclaim it to the world ! 
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Nadir on July 01, 2019, 05:44:09 PM
I have never heard that vegetarians have easy births. That's a new one on me. Evidence?


Anonymous of reply 14: Nothing of what wrote answers my question so I wonder why you quoted me.
What have ultra sound scans have to do with vegetarianism? Not that I dispute what Dr M says.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: apollo on July 01, 2019, 05:54:38 PM
Anonymous of reply 14: Nothing of what wrote answers my question so I wonder why you quoted me.
What have ultra sound scans have to do with vegetarianism? Not that I dispute what Dr M says.
That was my reply.  I forget to check the stupid little box.
I did reply in the paragraph below the video image.
.
Dr Mendelsohn said in a talk that I listened to:
"Vegetarian women have easier and quicker childbirths".
.
The other stuff was to shown that he is not afraid to tell
the truth (unlike other doctors). 
.
I don't know the biochemical reason for his statement.
He did not mention that.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Nadir on July 01, 2019, 08:32:58 PM
Thank you, Apollo. So no evidence. Just hearsay at this point. If you dig some up let me know and I'll do the same.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on July 01, 2019, 09:10:55 PM
Thank you, Apollo. So no evidence. Just hearsay at this point. If you dig some up let me know and I'll do the same.
I have heard this from other sources also, but cannot remember who said it,
as it was about 1985 when I was interested in this subject.
.
I would not call it "just hearsay" if Dr Mendelsohn said it.
I found this online, about him:
.
"For 12 years he was an instructor at Northwest University Medical College,
and an additional 12 years served as Associate Professor of Pediatrics and
Community Health and Preventive Medicine at the University of Illinois College
of Medicine."
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Nadir on July 01, 2019, 10:38:57 PM
You heard it said, repeated it but can't back it up with evidence so it is still hearsay regardless of the doctor's experience. As I said, if you find some evidence let me know.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: apollo on July 01, 2019, 11:00:05 PM
You heard it said, repeated it but can't back it up with evidence so it is still hearsay regardless of the doctor's experience. As I said, if you find some evidence let me know.
I cannot find anything on the internet.  What I get is lots of talk about
pregnancy and the vegetarian diet, but nothing about the childbirth
experience of vegetarians.  So, I guess you can call it hearsay, for now.
.
I could ask my vegan doctor via email but he does not respond quickly.
.
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on July 02, 2019, 08:30:00 AM
Voluntary abstinence during fertile periods is no different from contraception.

Not to preach NFP, but I have to call you out on your error here. Periodic abstinence during fertile periods is NOT the same as contraception. Contraception is the deliberate frustration of the procreative aspect of the marriage act. It is separating the unitive and procreative aspects, by deliberately and artificially removing the procreative aspect out of the equation. That is, by using chemicals, barriers, etc. By contraception, the husband and wife don't give/receive all they should in the act -- they positively exclude the possibility of children.
That is not true when the act is done in a completely natural and normal manner, with no man-made artifices intervening.

You can be against NFP, but let's not exaggerate. We are bound by truth here. If sticking with the truth makes NFP seem or sound permissible -- then *gasp* maybe it is! It wouldn't be the end of the world. What's more important is to NEVER deny a single truth.

Matthew
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Mega-fin on July 02, 2019, 09:49:14 AM
Not to preach NFP, but I have to call you out on your error here. Periodic abstinence during fertile periods is NOT the same as contraception. Contraception is the deliberate frustration of the procreative aspect of the marriage act. It is separating the unitive and procreative aspects, by deliberately and artificially removing the procreative aspect out of the equation. That is, by using chemicals, barriers, etc. By contraception, the husband and wife don't give/receive all they should in the act -- they positively exclude the possibility of children.
That is not true when the act is done in a completely natural and normal manner, with no man-made artifices intervening.

You can be against NFP, but let's not exaggerate. We are bound by truth here. If sticking with the truth makes NFP seem or sound permissible -- then *gasp* maybe it is! It wouldn't be the end of the world. What's more important is to NEVER deny a single truth.

Matthew
And while the Church says there are times when it is permissible, Fr Scott still concludes that “Whether it be through artificial or natural means that the first purpose of marriage is frustrated, such couples who are not willing to accept all the children God sends them do indeed fail to live up to their marriage vows”

Accepting this isn’t denying truth or reality, it’s accepting a fact. 
Title: Re: If according to doctors, another pregnancy was potentially lethal..
Post by: Änσnymσus on July 02, 2019, 04:56:09 PM
So, there are times when it is permissible.  And I do agree with serious reason.  And abstaining, is some cases could lean  to sin.  It is the attitude.  we regret we can not have a child at this time, or as a couple is our attitude to just, no more children.  It is a fine line and every time a woman sees her fertility signs, God is giving an invitation. How will the couple answer.  Nothing is wrong with abstaining, only when the attitude is selfish.