Author Topic: How would a traditional catholic deal with this situation? (Read 3876 times)

Yeti · « **Reply #15 on:** January 10, 2024, 04:54:00 PM »

Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on January 10, 2024, 03:52:41 PM

Wow! As a formal nullity case before a Tribunal, this would be an EASY annulment on grounds of fraud since the female failed to disclose her past in order to secure consent of the male. Canon 1098 of the 1983 Code. I would need to look-up the corresponding canon in the 1917 Code as I cannot remember it.

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No, this is definitely not grounds for annulment according to Catholic standards. Lying about oneself does not invalidate the marriage. The only type of lie that would invalidate it would be a lie of person, such as someone impersonating someone else; for example, Peter intends to marry Bertha, but Matilda disguises herself as Bertha in such a way to deceive Peter, and goes through the marriage ceremony.

Obviously such a scenario is borderline impossible, which is why there were only a few dozen marriage annulments handed out worldwide before Vatican 2. If not telling one's spouse that their child was not theirs, or whatever it is that happened here, were grounds for annulment, the annulment factory would have been running just as hard before Vatican 2 as it has since.

After Vatican 2, the false church invented a lot of new grounds that would make the sacrament of matrimony invalid so that people could get divorced and remarried without admitting that that's what they were doing. Obviously those grounds were designed in such a way that they could be handed out to basically anyone, since otherwise how does this allow everyone to get divorced? So the idea that concealing information about oneself would invalidate the marriage was one of many things that were invented to this end.

But obviously the sacrament of matrimony is instituted by God Himself, so only God can determine what makes it valid or not. And the rules the Church laid down for matrimony were those received from God. No one has the power to add to or change the conditions on which sacramental validity rests, especially not modernist heretics.

Emile · « **Reply #16 on:** January 10, 2024, 05:02:08 PM »

Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on January 10, 2024, 03:52:41 PM

Wow! As a formal nullity case before a Tribunal, this would be an EASY annulment on grounds of fraud since the female failed to disclose her past in order to secure consent of the male. Canon 1098 of the 1983 Code. I would need to look-up the corresponding canon in the 1917 Code as I cannot remember it.

Whether it was fraud would depend on if she knew with certainty that the husband wasn't the father before they married. Obviously her and the husband, or future husband as it were, must have been having relations in that time frame if he thought the child was his for all those years.

2Vermont · « **Reply #17 on:** January 10, 2024, 05:07:40 PM »

My heart goes out to that child. What this man chooses to do/not do will have far reaching effects on her.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #18 on:** January 10, 2024, 05:23:32 PM »

Quote from: FarmerWife on January 10, 2024, 11:11:35 AM

It would make sense for a virgin man to desire a virgin woman for marriage.

Quote from: Matthew on January 10, 2024, 12:53:55 PM

Definitely better to be single than marry some random non-Trad woman with a "past". I couldn't imagine being with a woman whom several other living men have "experienced" as well. That's insane to me. Insane and unnatural.

Then again, I'm assuming a man who has kept his purity HIMSELF. A man with "a past" deserves a woman "with a past", don't you think?
And of course that situation, while just and fair, will still be fraught with problems on a natural level. God designed one-man-for-one-woman. That design was built into our bodies, our psychology, our minds, and our emotions.

This is difficult for me as I have slept with 1 other person but I would not marry a non-virgin woman. I do agree that the ideal is for 2 virgins and in terms of sin fornication is fornication (though sometimes people do multiple other mortal sins during/surrounding fornication). However I do not think virginity is equal in males and females. Men do not have hymens while women do, a woman also takes more damage to her ability to pair-bond than a man. The acts itself also impacts a female and male differently, typically the woman is effected more as she is the 'receiver' and woman tend to be more emotional in general. There is also the psychological aspect, the idea/act of taking a woman's virginity and knowing that your wife has only slept with you is a big deal for many men. Of course I do understand that a virgin woman may not want to marry a non-virgin man, after all it is the ideal and ultimately a preference.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #19 on:** January 10, 2024, 05:28:58 PM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 10, 2024, 05:23:32 PM

This is difficult for me as I have slept with 1 other person but I would not marry a non-virgin woman. I do agree that the ideal is for 2 virgins and in terms of sin fornication is fornication (though sometimes people do multiple other mortal sins during/surrounding fornication). However I do not think virginity is equal in males and females. Men do not have hymens while women do, a woman also takes more damage to her ability to pair-bond than a man. The acts itself also impacts a female and male differently, typically the woman is effected more as she is the 'receiver' and woman tend to be more emotional in general. There is also the psychological aspect, the idea/act of taking a woman's virginity and knowing that your wife has only slept with you is a big deal for many men. Of course I do understand that a virgin woman may not want to marry a non-virgin man, after all it is the ideal and ultimately a preference.

I forgot but there is one more thing. A woman absorbs the DNA of her fertilized eggs so any future child would have a tiny portion of the DNA of other men, this is also a big deal for many.

I'm not sure how true it is but I also heard that even just the sɛҳuąƖ act is enough for a women to absorb her partners DNA.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #20 on:** January 10, 2024, 05:41:33 PM »

Quote

Problem with the "forgiveness" aspect is that the woman doesn't appear contrite ... especially if she threw that in his face during an argument, as if she relished having wronged him that way.

Agree.

Friedrich N · « **Reply #21 on:** January 10, 2024, 05:48:59 PM »

Mensa et thoro?

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #22 on:** January 10, 2024, 07:11:10 PM »

Quote

Hello Reddit this a a throwaway account. I am 37m and my wife is 39f. We had been married for 10 years and we have a daughter who is 9f going on 10. Me and my wife had a fight and she said something about my daughter not being mine I kept a straight face but after she realized what she said she left and went to bed. I had never thought about my daughter not being mine, but I had to know if she was or wasn't. Long story short I got a paternity test and I wasn't her father. I showed it to my wife who begged and pleaded with me not to get a divorce, but I told her that I was. I told my family and friends what happened and they said I should cut them out of my life including my daughter. I don't want to raise a child that's not mine nor do I wanna pay for her either. My wife keeps calling me telling me not to make her and our child homeless, but I don't care if she is homeless or not she shouldn't have cheated. for people wondering where her real dad is he's dead, he died a few years ago. so WIBTA if i did just cut her out of my life?

Edit: A lot of people keep asking the same question. Why can't you love her? Or why are you punishing her? If her mother had gotten sa'd then by all means yes I would keep her and love her, but she didn't her father may be dead but he has living relatives who would be more than happy to know a piece of there son is still alive. I'm not punishing her I just don't really feel I can look at her the same. Those who are saying get full custody I will not I would have no help to raise her.

As the OP pointed out this story may be fiction, but assuming it is real, the question that comes to mind is, what were they arguing about that the wife wanted to hurt him so badly that she would hurl that one at him?

Some infidelity on his part, whether actual or perceived?
Some criticism of his wife's parenting that the wife took as a personal attack?
Did he criticize their daughter?
Did the wife actually know that he was not the father or was it just an intuition that turned out to be correct?

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #23 on:** January 10, 2024, 07:19:44 PM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 10, 2024, 07:11:10 PM

As the OP pointed out this story may be fiction, but assuming it is real, the question that comes to mind is, what were they arguing about that the wife wanted to hurt him so badly that she would hurl that one at him?

Some infidelity on his part, whether actual or perceived?
Some criticism of his wife's parenting that the wife took as a personal attack?
Did he criticize their daughter?
Did the wife actually know that he was not the father or was it just an intuition that turned out to be correct?

Well a woman always knows that the child is hers as she is the one of carries the child.. a man on the other hand cannot be sure if the child is his without a DNA test. It seems that the person in question got cheated on around the time he got married, probably before the marriage. I don't think the women cares if it's his child or not because she cheated... If she wanted it to have been his then she simply would not have cheated in the first place, she knew what she was doing.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #24 on:** January 10, 2024, 07:24:51 PM »

There's an old adage that I think applies:
There's his story,
there's her story,
then there's the truth.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #25 on:** January 11, 2024, 03:15:06 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 10, 2024, 05:28:58 PM

I forgot but there is one more thing. A woman absorbs the DNA of her fertilized eggs so any future child would have a tiny portion of the DNA of other men, this is also a big deal for many.

I'm not sure how true it is but I also heard that even just the sɛҳuąƖ act is enough for a women to absorb her partners DNA.

The sɛҳuąƖ act alone does not cause the woman to absorb her partner’s DNA. It is only in cases of a fertilized and implanted egg that a small portion of the male’s DNA is absorbed and becomes a permanent part of the woman.

Matthew · « **Reply #26 on:** January 11, 2024, 04:39:59 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on January 10, 2024, 02:24:36 PM

Well, I don't see this as a question of "forgiveness". Charity requires taking care of the daughter, since her entire life she believed the man was her father, and charity would probably require keeping the mother around (again, for the sake of the daughter). Problem with the "forgiveness" aspect is that the woman doesn't appear contrite ... especially if she threw that in his face during an argument, as if she relished having wronged him that way. Also, given that they were married for 10 years and the daughter is 9 going on 10, she was cheating on him "right out of the gate", which does question her motivations in getting into the marriage. Until she shows actual sincere contrition, it's not a question of forgiveness, and she should be relegated to the couch for the rest of the time she's permitted to stay in the home that the man is paying for. Also, the question comes up about how often she may have been unfaithful over the entire 10 years. Perhaps for the future ones she was more "careful" not to conceive. Also makes me wonder why the married pair don't have a child between them over the course of 10 years.

Good points Lad!

We can talk about "Forgiveness" when she is contrite. Even God, who is perfect, doesn't forgive us *anything* until we are actually sorry for having done it (including cessation of committing said offense).

And if she was unfaithful (and got away with it) 10 years ago, it makes you wonder how many times she was unfaithful during the past 10 years. After all, she didn't exactly conceive any children with her husband. Was she on the pill? It's not exactly a rare scandal for a woman to be on artificial birth control these days (though it should be!)

And the timing of the infidelity shows an above-average problem. Possibly invalidating the marriage. I mean, this wasn't "The Seven Year Itch" or some other common human phenomenon; this was right at the BEGINNING of the marriage! Did she intend to get married (an exclusive union) to begin with? Her behavior is a higher level of messed up than the classic "I'm sick of the same old spouse".

And yes, it would be charitable to think of the daughter's emotional, mental, and physical well-being. Charity is about what ISN'T owed in justice, but given anyway.

And another point:

There are worse fates than being single for your whole life. This poor guy. I didn't even catch this point, but they've been married 10 years and the couple has no children between them? Just the one girl, who wasn't even his? Something seems amiss in that marriage/relationship. I think it's safe to conclude this man married very poorly, for whatever reason (was she "cute"? was she "hot"? was he desperate?) Very sad.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #27 on:** January 11, 2024, 06:53:40 AM »

I would argue a man with a past is not the same as a woman with a past. Actually, not even close.

Still, a man/woman who has a past committed a mortal sin at some point, however, the earthly consequences affects the women 100x more in my opinion.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #28 on:** January 11, 2024, 07:09:10 AM »

Quote from: Matthew on January 11, 2024, 04:39:59 AM

And the timing of the infidelity shows an above-average problem. Possibly invalidating the marriage. I mean, this wasn't "The Seven Year Itch" or some other common human phenomenon; this was right at the BEGINNING of the marriage! Did she intend to get married (an exclusive union) to begin with? Her behavior is a higher level of messed up than the classic "I'm sick of the same old spouse".

That thought had also crossed my mind, but of course we know little of the exact details. There are many people out there who get "married" for various reasons who don't intend to be "tied down" to the one spouse (if he doesn't satisfy all their needs/desires). And the lack of children over 10 years between the actual couple suggests that they were also not exactly about welcoming the children God would send them. This situation seems messed up in general, so that the husband should hardly be surprised that it turned out that way. When there isn't the understanding that the primary end of marriage is for children, that lack of commitment to children often also manifests itself in a lack of commitment to the spouse.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #29 on:** January 11, 2024, 08:29:19 AM »

Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on January 10, 2024, 03:52:41 PM

Wow! As a formal nullity case before a Tribunal, this would be an EASY annulment on grounds of fraud since the female failed to disclose her past in order to secure consent of the male. Canon 1098 of the 1983 Code. I would need to look-up the corresponding canon in the 1917 Code as I cannot remember it.

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There is no corresponding 1917 Canon. "Failure to disclose one's past" is not an impediment to a valid marriage.
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Author Topic: How would a traditional catholic deal with this situation? (Read 3876 times)

Yeti

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Emile

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2Vermont

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Änσnymσus

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Änσnymσus

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Änσnymσus

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Friedrich N

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Änσnymσus

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Änσnymσus

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Änσnymσus

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Änσnymσus

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Matthew

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Änσnymσus

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Ladislaus

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Änσnymσus

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