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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on March 13, 2025, 08:47:33 PM

Title: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 13, 2025, 08:47:33 PM
So at work today I had a customer asking about eggs (shelf was empty), now that's not my department and I was very busy and my co worker said that the eggs were underneath a pallet of chocolate. So I told the guy we had none until the afternoon. I believe this was a deliberate venial sin, how can I avoid this? I wasn't sure what to say, was busy with my own work and am very tired due to lack of sleep. I do not like that I lied/sinned.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 13, 2025, 08:59:40 PM
So at work today I had a customer asking about eggs (shelf was empty), now that's not my department and I was very busy and my co worker said that the eggs were underneath a pallet of chocolate. So I told the guy we had none until the afternoon. I believe this was a deliberate venial sin, how can I avoid this? I wasn't sure what to say, was busy with my own work and am very tired due to lack of sleep. I do not like that I lied/sinned.

With a contrite heart, pray 5 decades of the Rosary, mediating on the idea that Satan is the Father of Lies and that you are scourging Our Lord when you follow Satan's ways. During the Rosary, ask Our Lord and Our Mother Mary to help you learn to hate lying, even the smallest lies. Receive the Sacrament of Penance at your next opportunity, explaining to the priest what you did.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: SimpleMan on March 13, 2025, 09:10:28 PM
It's not clear how much trouble it would have been to lift the pallet to get the eggs --- would some kind of mechanical lifting apparatus, not available at the moment, have been required? --- but if the eggs were not readily available, I would have no problem in saying "we have none", with the mental reservation of "we have none available".  Sadly, and I know this from working in retail, there is a stripe of customer who would have no compunction about making you take the entire stockroom apart to find some doodad they want that hasn't made it to the sales floor yet.  I don't think a shopkeeper has any obligation to accommodate such a customer.  (And that's an American thing.  In France, they'd eject you from the store for being so demanding.)

If you could have easily retrieved the eggs, but just did not wish to do so, and if they didn't have to be taken into inventory before shelving, then, no, you shouldn't have said you had none.  The parvity of matter here could not possibly be mortally sinful.  Make an act of contrition, do some small penance if your conscience dictates, and move on.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 13, 2025, 09:12:45 PM
I don’t see that as lying. The eggs were still on a pallet waiting to be put on the shelves. 
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 13, 2025, 10:26:45 PM
So at work today I had a customer asking about eggs (shelf was empty), now that's not my department and I was very busy and my co worker said that the eggs were underneath a pallet of chocolate. So I told the guy we had none until the afternoon. I believe this was a deliberate venial sin, how can I avoid this? I wasn't sure what to say, was busy with my own work and am very tired due to lack of sleep. I do not like that I lied/sinned.
just shrug next time
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat on March 13, 2025, 11:20:43 PM
So at work today I had a customer asking about eggs (shelf was empty), now that's not my department and I was very busy and my co worker said that the eggs were underneath a pallet of chocolate. So I told the guy we had none until the afternoon. I believe this was a deliberate venial sin, how can I avoid this? I wasn't sure what to say, was busy with my own work and am very tired due to lack of sleep. I do not like that I lied/sinned.
Effectively, no eggs were available, so you didn't lie. Eggs isn't your department and you were stressed with your own responsibilities. You're no obligated to give a lengthy, technical answer to the customer about why the eggs weren't available. That is cutting into your time to do your work. You might be suffering from scrupulosity. 
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: SimpleMan on March 14, 2025, 12:59:17 AM
Effectively, no eggs were available, so you didn't lie. Eggs isn't your department and you were stressed with your own responsibilities. You're no obligated to give a lengthy, technical answer to the customer about why the eggs weren't available. That is cutting into your time to do your work. You might be suffering from scrupulosity.
That's where I was going.  Yes, the eggs were physically present in the store, but not put out for sale yet.  Again, from my time in retail, I know that inventory has to be logged in, counted, and then put on the shelf to sell.  It's not clear whether any of this had happened yet, aside from the eggs not being on the shelf.  And where do you draw the line?  Let's say that the egg truck had just rolled up to the loading dock.  Would the eggs be available for sale?  Of course not.

Not knowing all the particulars (could you have easily gotten the eggs but were just not inclined to do so?), I can't say with certainty whether any sin at all was committed here, but as I noted, lying to a customer about a carton or two of eggs is very difficult to see as mortally sinful, again, parvity of matter.  I know that with all the gaps in catechesis among the faithful in Newchurch, they are confused six ways from Sunday as to what is a sin, what isn't, and what grave matter is.  I heard of one person who thought a "grave" sin was any sin against one of the Ten Commandments.  Except for the precepts of the Church (malum prohibitorum, not malum in se), there isn't any sin that, at least in the broad sense, isn't a sin against one or more of the Ten Commandments.  That's just scrupulosity waiting to happen.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 14, 2025, 01:02:03 AM
It's not clear how much trouble it would have been to lift the pallet to get the eggs --- would some kind of mechanical lifting apparatus, not available at the moment, have been required? --- but if the eggs were not readily available, I would have no problem in saying "we have none", with the mental reservation of "we have none available".  Sadly, and I know this from working in retail, there is a stripe of customer who would have no compunction about making you take the entire stockroom apart to find some doodad they want that hasn't made it to the sales floor yet.  I don't think a shopkeeper has any obligation to accommodate such a customer.  (And that's an American thing.  In France, they'd eject you from the store for being so demanding.)

If you could have easily retrieved the eggs, but just did not wish to do so, and if they didn't have to be taken into inventory before shelving, then, no, you shouldn't have said you had none.  The parvity of matter here could not possibly be mortally sinful.  Make an act of contrition, do some small penance if your conscience dictates, and move on.
Isn't mental reservation just an excuse to tell lies? I couldn't get the eggs as it's not my department (I do online shopping so I am on a time limit and can't stop and help people unless it's a quick direction pointer)
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: SimpleMan on March 14, 2025, 01:11:23 AM
Isn't mental reservation just an excuse to tell lies? I couldn't get the eggs as it's not my department (I do online shopping so I am on a time limit and can't stop and help people unless it's a quick direction pointer)

Not really.  Mental reservation, as traditionally understood, is making a statement that is not false in and of itself, but requires interpretation to be understood in the sense that the speaker intends it.  

You were clearly not in a position to honor the customer's request, so the mental reservation of "we have no eggs" could be understood as "I am not capable of getting eggs for you right now".  I found as well in retail that shoppers have the execrable habit of seeing someone who is clearly busy with other things, and pulling the person away from their task, as I always told my workers, "people like what busy looks like".  If it is a worker who is just standing around idly (and in my store, there was always enough to keep everybody busy, if nothing else you can clean, bring merchandise to the front of the shelf so as not to have gaps in the display, and so on), people are actually less inclined to approach them --- it is as though they like the idea of interrupting someone who is up to their ears in work.  Maybe the slackers on my payroll figured this out and thought that they could get out of even more work by goofing off.  I don't know.

You learn a lot about people by working retail.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 14, 2025, 04:39:40 AM
My immediate concern would be how the eggs didn't get crushed under the pallet of chocalate
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: jen51 on March 14, 2025, 06:03:30 AM
This doesn’t seem like a lie to me. You gave your best estimation as to when there would be eggs available, no?

Maybe you are feeling guilty about not going above and beyond for the customer? Maybe you felt you could have pursued the issue and came up with a more satisfactory answer to please the customer? You needn’t feel guilty there, surely. 

Stores have policies and procedures in place, schedules to keep, etc. They put these procedures in place to make things run efficiently, in turn making the shopping experience a good one for the customers.  You can’t just stop and fulfill customers requests when they are outside procedure or the system wouldn’t work, despite what one customer thinks- For the customer hasn’t considered the reality of how a store works. His only consideration is that he/she wants eggs and doesn’t want to bother going to another store. 

If something isn’t on the shelf, it’s true that the product is not available. I’m sure you were cordial about it. I personally would not sweat it a minute longer.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Ladislaus on March 14, 2025, 06:55:32 AM
Well, if at the time you make the statement you believed it to be venial sin but did it anyway, then you did in fact commit a venial sin ... due to your subjective belief it was a sin and doing it regardless.  If you were undecided or up in the air about it, then if you apply the principles of probabilism, then you may not have sinned.

Objectively, however, I would consider this a legitimate mental reservation.  Whether it was because you didn't have time or even were too lazy to dig them out, your statement that they would not be AVAILABLE until the afternoon was a factually true statement.  You may have committed a venial sin or at least imperfection / fault against charity if you didn't assist the customer out of laziness (vs. being busy with other duties that took priority).

So, an approved moral theology book about lying that was posted here brings up a very similar scenario of mental reservation.  There's a man selling fish at a market, but he's keeping some back in his van for his family.  After he sells the last one he has out for sale, someone comes up to him and asks, "Do you have more fish?"  So the man responds "No" ... even though he does have more.  So, the context of that statement is ... Do you have more fish FOR SALE?  This man has no reasonable expectation nor any right to know the absolute truth, namely, that you do have some but they're simply not for sale.

If you told the guy you had more in your van, perhaps he harasses you or even goes to steal our fish, etc.

I think that there has been too much a focus in terms of lying about whether the proposition is materially or objectively correct or true (in some absolute sense) so that the formal aspect of the sin can be lost.

So, if Bishop Williamson is teaching class and utters the proposition "2+2=5", that's materially a false proposition.  But is it a lie, formally speaking?  No.  He says that as an example of a falsehood.  Or people often say the OPPOSITE of what is true in the expression referred to as sarcasm, or in satire.  Are those lies, simply because the air generated by the individual's mouth put words together that happened to not be true?

So, what, then, is the formal essence of lying.  Lying consists of implanting some THOUGHT in your audience's mind that is contrary to objective truth ... WHEN THE INDIVIDUAL HAS A RIGHT TO KNOW THAT TRUTH.

So, for instance, the Jesuitical view of "mental reservation" allows you to say stuff with the deliberate intent that the individual you're speaking to gets a false proposition in their mind, while keeping the sentence or sentences materially correct.  Very often mental reservation consists of statements that are true with some missing causal link.  So, for instance, you get to work late.  Your boss asks you why you're late, and you say, "One of my kids is sick."  Now, that may in fact be true ... but it had absolutely nothing to do with WHY you're late.  You were late just because you were a bit slow and lazy getting ready that morning.  So the answer is MATERIALLY correct, but you clearly said it with the intent that your boss would interpret the statement as meaning that you were late BECAUSE of a sick child, which a boss would be inclined to let slide, vs. if you told him the absolute truth that you were just being kindof lazy that morning.

Similarly, a parent might ask a child.  "Did you clean your room?"  And the child responds, "Yes, I cleaned my room." ... leaving out the qualifier of "last month."  It is in fact true that the child cleaned his room ... a month ago.  But clearly the INTENT of the parent was to find out whether you had RECENTLY cleaned your room and that it is in a clean state at the time of the interrogation.  You know that's what the parent wants to know, so you wordsmith some sentence that's materially true, but with the deliberate intention that the parent get the WRONG answer to the question they truly intended to ask.  Now, a parent has a right to know the answer to that question, so you lied.  Despite the words being technically accurate, you formally lied to your parent and committed a sin.  Even the proponents of mental reservation would admit this, that you can't use it when the individual to whom you're communicating false information has a right in justice or in charity to know the truth.

So if one focuses less on the material words themselves, some of those classic "dilemmas" about lying pretty much vaporize.  Someone comes to your home looking for someone who's being unjustly sought for execution.  Clearly that individual has NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to that information, so you commit no sin if you say, "No, he's not here."  If you start to equivocate looking for the right mental reservation also, you could easily give it away that you're trying to hide something and inspire the perpetrator to thoroughly search your home, whereas if you give a confident answer that he accepts, he could just move along.  So in a sense, in that type of scenario, you have a moral obligation NOT to share the truth with such an individual and there's nothing wrong with falsehood entering that individual's mind.  Similarly with a priest and the Confessional seal, if someone interrogates the priest about the contents of someone's Confession, the priest has grave obligation to NOT share this truth with the individual.

So the formal aspect of lying is all about whether some individual has a RIGHT to the truth, in justice and/or in charity.  "Do I look fat in this dress?" or "Does this blouse make me look ugly?"  Well, in charity you may be obliged to withhold the ugly truth, lest you offend the person.  But, then, if the person truly does look hideous, charity and justice may warrant finding a very delicate way of persuading her to change.  Of course, you may utter the mental reservation, "You're beautiful." ... where you mean, generally speaking, or even just spiritually ... but that is NOT what the person is inquiring about, and YOU KNOW IT.  So you can wordsmith all you want, you're still putting something into the individual's mind that's incorrect, and that's your intention ... so it matters little how you break wind and make airwaves with your mouth, tongue, and diaphragm.

For those scrupulous about the material aspect of lying, there's always the universal mental reservation of "... as far as you're concerned."  "I have no more fish" ... as far as you're concerned and have any right to know, much less is there a right for you to have possession of this fish.  Let's say this is not in Confession and you can't use the seal as your reason and that you're friends with a guy who was engaging in some sinful behavior, let's say consorting with prostitutes.  At some point some other guy comes up and asks you, "So is he going to prostitutes?"  That individual asking has no right to the information, and you'd be committing the sin of detraction if you revealed the truth.  At the same time, hemming and hawing like, "I cannot say." might as well be, "If I tell you, it would be detraction." ... which basically means, "Why, yes, yes he is."  So you can just without any scruple whatsoever answer, "No, he's not." [as far as you're concerned and are permitted to know].  This individual walking away with the false proposition in his head of "He's not going to prostitutes." is precisely the end result required by justice and charity, so that is what you did by firmly answering no.  Absolutely speaking it's a false proposition in his mind, but he's not permitted to have the correct proposition in his mind.  Now, the reason I bring up this type of scenario is to set up the contrast with the following.  So, let's now say the guy is married and his WIFE comes up to you and asks the same question, "Is he seeing prostitutes?" in that case, since she has a right to know, for various reasons, since she's being deprived in justice of something owed to her and also even because it might impact her health (catching various STDs), so in that case you must answer with the truth.  "Yes, I'm afraid he is.  I'm so sorry."  In that second scenario, NOW it would be a lie to say, "No" ... as far as you're concerned.  On the contrary, it most certainly DOES concern her, i.e. she has a right to know this truth, so that mentally-reserved part is actually a complete lie, and you deprived her of knowledge that she had a right to in justice.

So, IMO, we need to focus less on the air that we move to make sounds, or the pen that we use to write words and more on the formal aspect of lying, which can be defined as deliberately putting into the head of someone who has a right to know the truth a proposition that contradicts the truth.  When the individual has a right, in justice or charity, to know the truth, your depriving them of that right would be a sin against justice and/or charity, no different than stealing something that belongs to them, or better, refusing to hand something of theirs to them when asked to do so.  If you found $100 on a table, and the owner of it comes to ask you for it, you'd commit a sin refusing to hand it over.  If you found $100 on a table, and someone you know is NOT the owner of it and does NOT have a right to it asks you for it, and you hand it over, you actually commit a sin by handing it over.  So in the first case you commit sin by NOT handing it over, and in the second you commit a sin BY handing it over.  It depends on who has the rights to it.  That's the essence of lying, formally speaking, and not so much material propositions.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Gray2023 on March 14, 2025, 07:00:21 AM
This doesn’t seem like a lie to me. You gave your best estimation as to when there would be eggs available, no?

Maybe you are feeling guilty about not going above and beyond for the customer? Maybe you felt you could have pursued the issue and came up with a more satisfactory answer to please the customer? You needn’t feel guilty there, surely.

Stores have policies and procedures in place, schedules to keep, etc. They put these procedures in place to make things run efficiently, in turn making the shopping experience a good one for the customers.  You can’t just stop and fulfill customers requests when they are outside procedure or the system wouldn’t work, despite what one customer thinks- For the customer hasn’t considered the reality of how a store works. His only consideration is that he/she wants eggs and doesn’t want to bother going to another store. 

If something isn’t on the shelf, it’s true that the product is not available. I’m sure you were cordial about it. I personally would not sweat it a minute longer.
This ^^^
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Ladislaus on March 14, 2025, 07:12:35 AM
For those who say that it's not a lie, I just want to point out that if the OP thought it was a lie at the time he said it and went ahead to say it anyway, he would still have sinned by lying even if, as I think we all agree, it wasn't objectively a lie.  But hopefully this can be corrected in the future.  Also, it could have been a sin or at least fault against charity to not assist the customer due to, say, just being lazy ... and then may also indirectly commit some sin against the owner of the establishment or the manager if by generally being lazy one gives prospective customers a bad impression of the establishment that could eventually contribute to a loss of business.  But if it's just, "I've got so much going on I don't have time right now to get it, and so I'll politely tell the customer that they'd be in later." ... there would be 0 issues with that.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Gray2023 on March 14, 2025, 07:39:16 AM
For those who say that it's not a lie, I just want to point out that if the OP thought it was a lie at the time he said it and went ahead to say it anyway, he would still have sinned by lying even if, as I think we all agree, it wasn't objectively a lie.  But hopefully this can be corrected in the future.  Also, it could have been a sin or at least fault against charity to not assist the customer due to, say, just being lazy ... and then may also indirectly commit some sin against the owner of the establishment or the manager if by generally being lazy one gives prospective customers a bad impression of the establishment that could eventually contribute to a loss of business.  But if it's just, "I've got so much going on I don't have time right now to get it, and so I'll politely tell the customer that they'd be in later." ... there would be 0 issues with that.
Just to add

Melancholics have a tendency to overthink things after the fact.

Because the OP was busy and told the customer the eggs would be available later, then the OP I think was not lying.

If it is still weighing on his conscience, then he should bring it up in confession.

Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 14, 2025, 08:50:17 AM
...Because the OP was busy and told the customer the eggs would be available later, then the OP I think was not lying.

If it is still weighing on his conscience, then he should bring it up in confession.

And he needs to educate himself on the issues mentioned above, such as Ladislaus' long post, so that he starts to understand what is & is not a lie, & thus not suffer unnecessary scruples in the future.  
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Gray2023 on March 14, 2025, 08:52:00 AM
And he needs to educate himself on the issues mentioned above, such as Ladislaus' long post, so that he starts to understand what is & is not a lie, & thus not suffer unnecessary scruples in the future. 
True
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 14, 2025, 09:17:22 AM
So at work today I had a customer asking about eggs (shelf was empty), now that's not my department and I was very busy and my co worker said that the eggs were underneath a pallet of chocolate. So I told the guy we had none until the afternoon. I believe this was a deliberate venial sin, how can I avoid this? I wasn't sure what to say, was busy with my own work and am very tired due to lack of sleep. I do not like that I lied/sinned.

Read the post again. The OP clearly lied. It was not true that the store "had none until the afternoon." The customer, believing the OP, might tell all his/her friends something like, "Hey, I went to the grocery store today and they said they will not have eggs until afternoon. There must be a real egg shortage."

Then someone gets on Fakebook and tells the whole world that Grocery store X in town X has no eggs. All the Fakebook lemmings run out to buy up all the eggs before they are all gone. Over what? Because the OP couldn't just say "Sorry, eggs are in not my department, but I will get someone else to help you."

Besides the social media contagion issue, consider the owner/manager of the grocery store. This person may have spent a lot of time making sure that the store, in fact, had eggs. Now, one of his employees tells a customer there are no eggs. The customer goes to another store to buy eggs. The customer permanently switches stores because of the undependability of the egg department at store number 1. Put yourself in the shoes of the manager/owner of the store. Would you want an employee doing this kind of thing?

Now, the OP probably just had a moment of weakness, and it is probably nothing more than a venial sin. But venial sin is still bad. Don't make excuses for them. Do you realize that if you excuse your own venial sins without trying to correct those known sins then you are not a candidate for a plenary indulgence?

For, a plenary indulgence one must have "the interior disposition of complete detachment from sin, even venial sin." So, by minimizing a lie and telling the OP that they are "scrupulous" and, worse yet, telling them to use "mental reservation" in a non-grave situation like this, you are giving the OP tools to keep himself attached to the venial sin of lying.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Gray2023 on March 14, 2025, 10:07:18 AM
Read the post again. The OP clearly lied. It was not true that the store "had none until the afternoon." The customer, believing the OP, might tell all his/her friends something like, "Hey, I went to the grocery store today and they said they will not have eggs until afternoon. There must be a real egg shortage."

Then someone gets on Fakebook and tells the whole world that Grocery store X in town X has no eggs. All the Fakebook lemmings run out to buy up all the eggs before they are all gone. Over what? Because the OP couldn't just say "Sorry, eggs are in not my department, but I will get someone else to help you."

Besides the social media contagion issue, consider the owner/manager of the grocery store. This person may have spent a lot of time making sure that the store, in fact, had eggs. Now, one of his employees tells a customer there are no eggs. The customer goes to another store to buy eggs. The customer permanently switches stores because of the undependability of the egg department at store number 1. Put yourself in the shoes of the manager/owner of the store. Would you want an employee doing this kind of thing?

Now, the OP probably just had a moment of weakness, and it is probably nothing more than a venial sin. But venial sin is still bad. Don't make excuses for them. Do you realize that if you excuse your own venial sins without trying to correct those known sins then you are not a candidate for a plenary indulgence?

For, a plenary indulgence one must have "the interior disposition of complete detachment from sin, even venial sin." So, by minimizing a lie and telling the OP that they are "scrupulous" and, worse yet, telling them to use "mental reservation" in a non-grave situation like this, you are giving the OP tools to keep himself attached to the venial sin of lying.
This would have held more weight if you were not Anonymous.

Each person is very different.

It is best to take these moral concerns to a priest, instead of hashing them out on the internet.

That being said.  I get where you are coming from and am sorry for my part in the confusion.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 14, 2025, 11:02:45 AM
Since the OP entitled the thread, "How to avoid lying?", I suggest he could simply have said,  "Sorry, eggs are in not my department, but I will get someone else to help you" as a previous poster said, or else something like, "we have some, but they're not on the shelf yet.  Check back later, or get someone from the egg department to help you."  Or some combo of both.  


Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: SimpleMan on March 14, 2025, 12:29:39 PM
Developing the art of making mental reservations, to deflect awkward or inappropriate questions, should be part of the skill set of any faithful Catholic.  You have to develop a certain shrewdness of mind to be able to do it without committing the sin of lying.

I have found that Protestants just cut to the chase, and tell an outright lie in such situations.  This would be consonant with their notion that "sin is not really mine anymore" once they "accept Jesus as their Lord and personal Saviour", and in the more extreme incarnations of "once saved, always saved", they can do anything they want to, and imagine that nothing they do could ever rupture that relationship.  Pretty convenient.  Among Protestants, the concept of social respectability is huge, and they tend to avoid outwardly sinful behavior to keep up their reputation as being upright, righteous people.  Things done in secret, however, that's another story.  A boyhood friend of mine, in those days before I was baptized and became a Catholic, had me over at his house one time (he had a truly awesome model train set), and took me to his parents' bedroom where they had a stash of porn (better not describe it here) that they read on the sly.  They were well-known gospel singers, and he asked me not to tell anyone about it, as it would jeopardize their reputation as being solid evangelical Christians.  Yet one more case in point.


Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Angelus on March 14, 2025, 04:16:34 PM
Not really.  Mental reservation, as traditionally understood, is making a statement that is not false in and of itself, but requires interpretation to be understood in the sense that the speaker intends it. 

You were clearly not in a position to honor the customer's request, so the mental reservation of "we have no eggs" could be understood as "I am not capable of getting eggs for you right now".  I found as well in retail that shoppers have the execrable habit of seeing someone who is clearly busy with other things, and pulling the person away from their task, as I always told my workers, "people like what busy looks like".  If it is a worker who is just standing around idly (and in my store, there was always enough to keep everybody busy, if nothing else you can clean, bring merchandise to the front of the shelf so as not to have gaps in the display, and so on), people are actually less inclined to approach them --- it is as though they like the idea of interrupting someone who is up to their ears in work.  Maybe the slackers on my payroll figured this out and thought that they could get out of even more work by goofing off.  I don't know.

You learn a lot about people by working retail.

Your understanding of the use of "mental reservation" seems flawed. Please read the following and tell us which category of "mental reservation" you are recommending to the OP in the matter of "we don't have any eggs" in the grocery store:


https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/35354/pg35354-images.html

2399. Mental Reservation.—Mental reservation is an act of the mind by which a speaker restricts or limits his words to a meaning which they do not naturally or clearly convey; or it is an internal modification of an external speech delivered without any or without clear external modification. There are two kinds of mental reservation.

(a) Strict mental reservation is that in which the internal modification is manifested by nothing external, neither by the natural sense of the words (i.e., the meaning that ordinarily attaches to them) nor by their accidental sense (i.e., the meaning they receive from their context, such as the circuмstances of time, place, usage, person who questions, person who is questioned, etc.). Example: Titus, who struck Balbus with a club, denies that he hit him, meaning that it was the club which hit Balbus directly.


(b) Broad mental reservation is that in which the internal modification can be perceived, at least by a prudent person, either from the natural sense of the words (because they are known to be capable of different meanings), or from the context (because circuмstances indicate that the words are not to be taken in their obvious sense). Example: Claudius accidentally ran against and wounded Sempronius and the latter thinks that someone struck him a blow. Claudius denies that he struck Sempronius, or declares to those who have no right to ask that he knows nothing about the matter.


2400. Lawfulness of Mental Reservation.—(a) Strict mental reservation is unlawful and has been condemned by the Church (see Denzinger, nn. 1174-1178). The reasons are, first, that it is a lie, since it employs words that do not at all express what the speaker has in mind, and his mental reservation cannot give them a significance they do not possess; secondly, that, if it were lawful, every dishonest person could easily escape the guilt of lying and yet deceive at will. According to Scripture the sophistical speaker is hateful (Ecclus., xxxvii. 23), but the just man speaks and swears without guile (Ps. xxxiii. 14, xxiii. 4).


(b) Broad mental reservation is unlawful when there is a reason that forbids its use, or when there is no sufficient reason to justify its use. Reservation is forbidden when a questioner has the right to an answer free from all ambiguity, for example, when a pastor questions parties preparing for marriage, when a person who is about to be inducted into office is asked about his freedom from disqualifications, when a witness in court is interrogated about matters on which he can testify, when one party to a contract seeks from the other necessary knowledge about the contract; for in all these cases injury is done by concealment of the truth. Reservation is not justified, unless it is necessary in order to secure some good or avoid some evil, whether spiritual or temporal, whether for self or for another, and the end compensates by its importance for the deception that may be caused. Apart from such necessity mental reservation is, to say the least, a departure from the virtue of Christian sincerity or simplicity, which pertains to truthfulness and which forbids one to conceal the truth from others when there is no good reason for concealment (Matt, v. 37). Moreover, the friendly relations of mankind would be impaired if it were lawful to speak equivocally even when trifling things are discussed or when there is no reason to be secretive.


(c) Broad mental reservation is lawful when there is a sufficient reason for it, such as the public welfare (e. g., the preservation of state secrets or of military plans), spiritual welfare (e.g., the prevention of blasphemy or intoxication), bodily welfare (e.g., the prevention of death or murder), or financial welfare (e.g., the prevention of robbery). But the reservation must be necessary, as being the only lawful means that will secure the end (e.g., one should not use reservation when evasion or silence will suffice); and it should not be injurious to the rights of another (e.g., it should not be employed against the common good, in favor of a private good). The reason for the present conclusion is found in the principle of double result (see 103 sqq.) and in the fact that a broad mental reservation is not intrinsically evil, since it contains no lie or insincerity and causes no injury to individuals or society. There is no lie, because the words correspond with the thought, either from their natural signification (in case of double-meaning words), or from their accidental signification (in case of words whose meaning is varied by the context); there is no insincerity, for the aim is only to conceal a truth that should not be made known; there is no injury to the listener or questioner, since, if he is deceived, this is due to his own heedlessness or dullness or unjustified curiosity; there is no injury to society, since the general welfare demands that there be some honest means of eluding unjust inquiries and of protecting important secrets. Our Lord Himself, who is infinitely above all suspicion of duplicity or insincerity, may have used broad mental reservations when He declared (John, vii. 8-10) that He would not go up to Jerusalem, that the daughter of Jairus was not dead but sleeping (Matt., ix. 24). Other cases of mental reservation in Scripture are found in Eliseus (IV Kings, vi. 19).


2401. When Is Broad Mental Reservation Lawful?—There is general agreement that broad mental reservation is lawful in the following cases:


(a) it is lawful and obligatory when one is bound to keep the truth from the person who asks it. Hence, those who are questioned about secrets which sacramental or professional confidence forbids them to disclose (e.g., confessors, doctors, lawyers, statesmen, and secretaries) should deny knowledge, or, if hard-pressed, even the facts. The answer, “I do not know” or “No,” in these cases simply means: “I have no personal or communicable knowledge.” In war time a government has the right to censor the news in order to keep information from the enemy. A reason of charity might also make it obligatory to disguise the truth by mental reservation (e.g., when a clear reply given to the question of a sick person would only weaken a slender hope of saving his life, or when exact information given to a gunman would enable him to overtake an intended victim);


(b) it is lawful when a reasonable local custom permits one to withhold the truth. Thus, an accused person, even though guilty, has the right to plead not guilty, which means that he does not confess guilt; a person who has a visitor at an unseasonable hour may send word that he is not at home, which means that she is not at home to visitors, a person who is asked for an alms or a loan which he cannot conveniently grant may answer, according to many, that he has not the money, which means that he has no money to spare for those purposes (see 2251).


2402. Ambiguous Answers.—Are ambiguous answers which are not given according to the questioner’s mind, and for which there are no reasonable justifications, to be classed as lies?


(a) If the answer, even in the setting of its context, retains its ambiguity or can be interpreted in two ways, there is not strictly speaking a lie, for the words signify, though obscurely, what is in the speaker’s mind. But this is a form of insincerity known as equivocation or quibbling, which many regard almost as disreputable as plain lying. The pagan oracles that made predictions that would suit any turn of events and politicians who so word themselves as to be on opposite sides at the same time are examples of equivocation.


(b) If the answer, though verbally susceptible of two senses, is contextually limited to one sense, it is a lie; for it does not express the speaker’s mind. Thus, if Titus knows that Balbus is good physically or mentally but not morally, he equivocates by answering that Balbus is good, if from the circuмstances this indicates only that in some way or other Balbus is good; but Titus lies by answering that Balbus is good and restricting his meaning to physical goodness or industry, if the question propounded referred to moral goodness.



Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: SimpleMan on March 14, 2025, 07:32:58 PM

Your understanding of the use of "mental reservation" seems flawed. Please read the following and tell us which category of "mental reservation" you are recommending to the OP in the matter of "we don't have any eggs" in the grocery store:

Broad mental reservation, in the sense of "we don't have any eggs" can reasonably be understood as "we don't have any eggs reasonably available for sale, such as would be the case if they were on the shelf, which they're not".  I am not clear whether the eggs being under a pallet of chocolates would prevent them from being "reasonably available for sale" --- how heavy is the pallet, does the store have a policy about clerks moving pallets to get goods not yet shelved, and so on --- but assuming it did, no, as a practical matter, the store doesn't have any eggs.  See also my examples of the eggs just now being unloaded from the delivery truck, or having been unloaded but not having yet been inventoried.

I'm not saying you, but I think some of this stems from the American expectation that shopkeepers will move mountains, inconvenience themselves, interrupt their workflow, and so on, to cater to the customer who must be deferred to at all times "because the customer is king".  If you've never worked in retail, you have no idea how outrageous some customers' demands can be.  And then there is the "Karen" phenomenon which, indeed, is a thing.

I like the French way of keeping shop better, where mutual respect is established between the customer and the sales agent, and where customers know better than to make unreasonable requests of the staff.  (And, yes, I have been to France, and I know how it works there.  The "ugly American" is disliked for a reason.  I behaved there just as I described above, and far from having issues, my patronage and my respect were appreciated.)

Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 14, 2025, 08:37:58 PM
Broad mental reservation, in the sense of "we don't have any eggs" can reasonably be understood as "we don't have any eggs reasonably available for sale, such as would be the case if they were on the shelf, which they're not".  I am not clear whether the eggs being under a pallet of chocolates would prevent them from being "reasonably available for sale" --- how heavy is the pallet, does the store have a policy about clerks moving pallets to get goods not yet shelved, and so on --- but assuming it did, no, as a practical matter, the store doesn't have any eggs.  See also my examples of the eggs just now being unloaded from the delivery truck, or having been unloaded but not having yet been inventoried.

I'm not saying you, but I think some of this stems from the American expectation that shopkeepers will move mountains, inconvenience themselves, interrupt their workflow, and so on, to cater to the customer who must be deferred to at all times "because the customer is king".  If you've never worked in retail, you have no idea how outrageous some customers' demands can be.  And then there is the "Karen" phenomenon which, indeed, is a thing.

I like the French way of keeping shop better, where mutual respect is established between the customer and the sales agent, and where customers know better than to make unreasonable requests of the staff.  (And, yes, I have been to France, and I know how it works there.  The "ugly American" is disliked for a reason.  I behaved there just as I described above, and far from having issues, my patronage and my respect were appreciated.)

But, in the section 2400 of the Moral Theology, "broad mental reservation" is not justified unless there are serious reasons for it. Here again is the key quote:


Quote
[Broad Mental] Reservation is not justified, unless it is necessary in order to secure some good or avoid some evil, whether spiritual or temporal, whether for self or for another, and the end compensates by its importance for the deception that may be caused. Apart from such necessity mental reservation is, to say the least, a departure from the virtue of Christian sincerity or simplicity, which pertains to truthfulness and which forbids one to conceal the truth from others when there is no good reason for concealment (Matt, v. 37). Moreover, the friendly relations of mankind would be impaired if it were lawful to speak equivocally even when trifling things are discussed or when there is no reason to be secretive.

In the OP scenario, he did not need to lie. He should not, therefore, use mental reservation in cases like that. He should have just told the customer something truthful, even if the customer would not have been happy with the answer.

The issue here has nothing to do with "eggs" or "grocery stores" or demanding "customers." It has to do with always telling the truth, except in the very rare cases outlined in the Moral Theology. Please, if you do not believe me, talk to a good priest. Hopefully he will tell you what the Catholic Church teaches.

The OP was experiencing pangs of conscience about what he did, and rightly so. This indicates that his conscience is well-formed and that he is docile to the movements of his conscience. Please don't give him reasons to doubt what his conscience was telling him.

And the use of "mental reservation" is a very complex topic. It is more likely to be misused than used correctly by your average Catholic. It is best to just commit to always tell the truth, especially if it hurts you a little.


Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 14, 2025, 09:16:56 PM
But, in the section 2400 of the Moral Theology, "broad mental reservation" is not justified unless there are serious reasons for it. Here again is the key quote:


In the OP scenario, he did not need to lie. He should not, therefore, use mental reservation in cases like that. He should have just told the customer something truthful, even if the customer would not have been happy with the answer.

The issue here has nothing to do with "eggs" or "grocery stores" or demanding "customers." It has to do with always telling the truth, except in the very rare cases outlined in the Moral Theology. Please, if you do not believe me, talk to a good priest. Hopefully he will tell you what the Catholic Church teaches.

The OP was experiencing pangs of conscience about what he did, and rightly so. This indicates that his conscience is well-formed and that he is docile to the movements of his conscience. Please don't give him reasons to doubt what his conscience was telling him.

And the use of "mental reservation" is a very complex topic. It is more likely to be misused than used correctly by your average Catholic. It is best to just commit to always tell the truth, especially if it hurts you a little.
What was the lie exactly that OP said? What could the OP have said?
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 14, 2025, 09:48:02 PM
What was the lie exactly that OP said? What could the OP have said?

Here is what the OP said:

Quote
"So at work today I had a customer asking about eggs (shelf was empty), now that's not my department and I was very busy and my co worker said that the eggs were underneath a pallet of chocolate. So I told the guy we had none until the afternoon. I believe this was a deliberate venial sin, how can I avoid this? I wasn't sure what to say, was busy with my own work and am very tired due to lack of sleep. I do not like that I lied/sinned."

1. Customer, seeing that the shelf was empty, asked if the store had any eggs.
2. OP told the customer "we had none until the afternoon."
3. But OP knew that his statement was untrue because his "co-worker said that the eggs were underneath a pallet of chocolate." In a later post, he said, "I couldn't get the eggs as it's not my department."

OP told a direct lie to the customer. It was simply not true to say that they had no eggs "until the afternoon." They did have eggs and the OP knew they had them. That is not "broad mental reservation." It doesn't matter that the eggs were "underneath a pallet" or that "it's not [his] department." He told a lie. He invented a counter-factual statement and knowingly presented the lie to the customer as the truth. And he admitted as much. He admitted that he had sinned.

Now, what could he have said instead? Another poster above gave some good examples:

Quote
Since the OP entitled the thread, "How to avoid lying?", I suggest he could simply have said,  "Sorry, eggs are in not my department, but I will get someone else to help you" as a previous poster said, or else something like, "we have some, but they're not on the shelf yet.  Check back later, or get someone from the egg department to help you."  Or some combo of both.


 
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Gray2023 on March 14, 2025, 10:20:31 PM
I think the OP needs step in and clarify some things.  Like did he purposely lie at first or did he realize he might of lied after the fact? Isn't this an important aspect of understanding the full scenario?
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 14, 2025, 10:31:46 PM
I think the OP needs step in and clarify some things.  Like did he purposely lie at first or did he realize he might of lied after the fact? Isn't this an important aspect of understanding the full scenario?
He could have said it without thinking or flustered. Working at a supermarket can be stressful. Or he could said it because he thought the eggs will be restocked in the afternoon which is likely. Eggs are a high demand item. I really doubt the OB just invented a lie to say. 
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Gray2023 on March 14, 2025, 10:35:56 PM
He could have said it without thinking or flustered. Working at a supermarket can be stressful. Or he could said it because he thought the eggs will be restocked in the afternoon which is likely. Eggs are a high demand item. I really doubt the OB just invented a lie to say.
I agree with you, but others keep trying to say he willfully lied, and I don't think it is fair for people to make such harsh and rash judgments on other people's internals.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 14, 2025, 10:38:28 PM
Here is what the OP said:

1. Customer, seeing that the shelf was empty, asked if the store had any eggs.
2. OP told the customer "we had none until the afternoon."
3. But OP knew that his statement was untrue because his "co-worker said that the eggs were underneath a pallet of chocolate." In a later post, he said, "I couldn't get the eggs as it's not my department."

OP told a direct lie to the customer. It was simply not true to say that they had no eggs "until the afternoon." They did have eggs and the OP knew they had them. That is not "broad mental reservation." It doesn't matter that the eggs were "underneath a pallet" or that "it's not [his] department." He told a lie. He invented a counter-factual statement and knowingly presented the lie to the customer as the truth. And he admitted as much. He admitted that he had sinned.

Now, what could he have said instead? Another poster above gave some good examples:


 
That’s still not a lie unless OP knew that the eggs were going to be restocked at night or the next day. Under a pallet means a forklift would need to be used. You can’t just get eggs from a pallet and hand it to the customer. It probably needs to be counted into an inventory, etc. 

Grocery items are stocked 24/7 so it’s possible that the eggs could have been restocked by the afternoon. 
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: SimpleMan on March 15, 2025, 01:03:39 AM
But, in the section 2400 of the Moral Theology, "broad mental reservation" is not justified unless there are serious reasons for it. Here again is the key quote:


Quote
Quote
[Broad Mental] Reservation is not justified, unless it is necessary in order to secure some good or avoid some evil, whether spiritual or temporal, whether for self or for another, and the end compensates by its importance for the deception that may be caused. Apart from such necessity mental reservation is, to say the least, a departure from the virtue of Christian sincerity or simplicity, which pertains to truthfulness and which forbids one to conceal the truth from others when there is no good reason for concealment (Matt, v. 37). Moreover, the friendly relations of mankind would be impaired if it were lawful to speak equivocally even when trifling things are discussed or when there is no reason to be secretive.

In the OP scenario, he did not need to lie. He should not, therefore, use mental reservation in cases like that. He should have just told the customer something truthful, even if the customer would not have been happy with the answer.

The issue here has nothing to do with "eggs" or "grocery stores" or demanding "customers." It has to do with always telling the truth, except in the very rare cases outlined in the Moral Theology. Please, if you do not believe me, talk to a good priest. Hopefully he will tell you what the Catholic Church teaches.

The OP was experiencing pangs of conscience about what he did, and rightly so. This indicates that his conscience is well-formed and that he is docile to the movements of his conscience. Please don't give him reasons to doubt what his conscience was telling him.

And the use of "mental reservation" is a very complex topic. It is more likely to be misused than used correctly by your average Catholic. It is best to just commit to always tell the truth, especially if it hurts you a little.


--------------------

My reply:

These cases are not necessarily "very rare".  It is fairly common for people to be asked awkward or impertinent questions, for which a truthful answer cannot easily be given.  As to "serious" reasons, I'm not sure how "serious" the reasons have to be, nor does the quote which you furnished use this word.  Using your reasoning, you would always have to disclose the exact whereabouts of your boss when he does not want to be bothered and has said "tell them I'm out", nor could you soften someone's fishing for compliments on their ghastly attire with a throwaway phrase such as "you look fine", or "that's certainly a interesting outfit".

As a rule, yes, generally you should tell the whole and entire truth.  However, in the real world, that's sometimes simply not possible, and cases come up where you have to be creative in how you speak, not lying, but using words that admit of multiple meanings.  I don't think any traditional Catholic priest would say otherwise.

And granted, it was a serious case, but I read in the journal The Casuist (posted on this forum some time back) of the hypothetical case of an unmarried woman who had fallen pregnant (back in the time when this would have been socially disgraceful), and someone speaking for her made up an outlandish tale about the woman having been seriously ill and in hospital (I think that was the scenario) for several months.  (Or it may have been something more fanciful than that, something about having to work on a project at a business out of town, I'd have to look it up.) The author maintained that this was an acceptable thing to say, something about "not all falsehoods are lies" or something like that.  I really had a hard time getting my head around that, but it was written well before our present era, and it had an imprimatur, so I'm not going to challenge it.

To my mind, replying that "there are no eggs" fulfilled the conditions listed in your quote.  If the OP continues to be troubled by what, in the end, was not grave matter, he should consult his confessor, but I think his confessor would tell him the same thing.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: SimpleMan on March 15, 2025, 01:20:20 AM
Found it:

(https://i.imgur.com/5ljbsTZ.png)

(there was a long section that diverged far away from the immediate question, so I skipped that and will simply provide the pertinent section below)

(https://i.imgur.com/uot1sl8.png)

If anyone wishes to look up the entire entry, it can be found here beginning on page 44:

https://archive.org/details/CasuistV3 (https://archive.org/details/CasuistV3)
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 15, 2025, 10:47:06 AM
Go to confession. 
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: SimpleMan on March 15, 2025, 11:20:20 AM
We really need to have a traditional Catholic priest actively participating in this forum, to address questions such as this, but I think he would just echo what several posters, as well as myself, have been saying here.  I know of at least one such priest, but he does not regularly post to the forum.

One fruit of the chaos of the past 60 years is that laymen have had to educate themselves in the same principles that priests use in assessing matters of casuistry.  We have the same reference sources that they do.
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 15, 2025, 04:58:14 PM
Go to Confession.  
Title: Re: How to avoid lying?
Post by: SimpleMan on March 15, 2025, 09:02:59 PM
I'm just going to repost the entire article here from The Casuist, and allow the reader to draw his own conclusion.

Actually, Woywod here makes a distinction of those who are entitled to know the truth, versus those who are not entitled to know the truth, which introduces a new aspect to the discussion.  No way could a cock-and-bull story about a pregnant girl having been working in New York for a time, then tiring of it and returning home, giving made-up details about her time there, by any stretch of the imagination be called a "mental reservation", either strict or broad.

This notwithstanding, moralists admit the concept of broad mental reservation, and determining when it is licit to use one is a matter that has to be decided on an individual-case basis.  Faithful Catholics of good will, and yes, even different priests, could make varying judgments about an individual scenario.

(https://i.imgur.com/zWgK2f9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/lcTH2rj.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/WMw0krj.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/BirVSul.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/zV4VDyh.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/D6ilaLF.png)