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Author Topic: How can SVs hold Contradictory views say they are One?  (Read 5224 times)

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Änσnymσus

  • Guest
How can SVs hold Contradictory views say they are One?
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2013, 01:07:49 PM »
Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: Guest
Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: soulguard
Quote from: TKGS
No response on what these doctrinal differences are?


Heresy is contrary to Catholic doctrine, so if he is a heretic, he expounds some doctrine other than Catholic doctrine. Each individual occasion of Francis 1's heresy reveals doctrinal differences. The dimonds are good at identifying how Francis 1 is a heretic.

Now whether he is a formal heretic or just a material heretic is debatable, but I think that he is so close to being a formal heretic that he IS one, and therefore not the pope.

If someone comes up with a theological argument to prove why he is still the pope after he says things the essence of which are "the church is wrong .... to obsess about abortion and gαy marriage" then I might accept him as a valid but atrocious pope, but in terms of salvation it doesn't matter anyway.


I was talking about the supposed differences in doctrine amongst sedevacantists alleged in the opening post.


OK well the answer to your question is that we have different perspectives on complicated theological matters. Part of it comes from a failure to fully understand the depths of church doctrine, part of it comes from not wanting to agree with the church, probably both.

Myself I think the new ordination rite is valid because in the beginning it was not always as complex as it is now, and also because even if paul 6 was a heretic and an anti-pope, the church might provide the validity to the new rites even if the pope they are attributed to was an anti-pope. The church made the rites its own and gave them validity through cardinals who intended to do what the church does. Same thing for consecrations.
I believe this from Fr Hesses talks, but this is my own reasoning on the matter.


You don't appear to be a sedevacantist, so...just who is the "we" you are talking about?


I don't know enough about the theology arguments for whether the present "pope" is valid. But I do believe at the moment that the new orders are valid. This does not mean that I cannot say that I am a Sedevacantist. Obviously you have came across a SV who thinks the new orders might be valid because the "church" gives them validity.
Also when I said "we" I refer to SVs in general.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
How can SVs hold Contradictory views say they are One?
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2013, 06:22:41 AM »
*Traditionalist clerics function as if they have spiritual authority in the Church. For that reason they reject the truth that: “All spiritual authority comes from Peter.”
 
*Traditionalists reject the truth that, “The Apostolic See is the sole source of legitimate power,” and that unless a bishop received a papal mandate and jurisdiction through a Vicar of Jesus Christ, he does not have legitimate power.

*No Traditionalist accepts the truth explained by Dom Guéranger: “We, then, both priests and people, have a right to know whence our pastors have received their power. If they claim our obedience without having been sent by the bishop of Rome, we must refuse to receive them for they are not acknowledged by Christ as His ministers. They must be as aliens to us, for they have not been sent, they are not pastors.”

*Traditionalists are a conglomerate, rolled together concoction of chaotic, disorganized, incompetent, uncontrollable, unmanageable, unruly, and disobedient groups of separated non-Catholic sects, divisions, and factions who continue to manifest their quarrelsome, argumentative, competitive, jealous, and challenging attitudes toward each other.

The power of jurisdiction does not pass on from bishop to bishop. This power of jurisdiction flows to the bishops only through the Successor of Saint Peter, and without it Apostolic Succession does not pass from one Catholic bishop to all the bishops he consecrates.

Listen to Pope Leo XIII as we again read from Satis Cognitum:

“14. It is necessary, therefore, to bear this in mind, viz., that nothing was conferred on the Apostles apart from Peter, but that several things were conferred upon Peter apart from the Apostles… whatever He did not deny to the others he gave only through him. So that whereas Peter alone received many things, He conferred nothing on any of the rest without Peter participating in it.”

The Unity of the Church would be destroyed if all of the intruder, schismatic, and heretical bishops who received their consecration without Peter participating in it actually passed on Apostolic Succession? Would there be as many non-Catholic branches still claiming to be Catholics as there have been bishops who were separated from the Catholic Church these past 2,000 years?

All such consecrations are illicit and received outside of the Catholic Church unless Peter participates in them? It is only if Peter participates in their consecration that bishops will receive jurisdiction and have what is necessary to pass on Apostolic Succession? None of the Traditionalists bishops coming from the Old Catholic-line, the Thuc-line, or the Lefebvre-line had Peter participate in their consecration?

Always remember an important truth Pope Pius XII wrote in this encyclical:

“The power of jurisdiction… flows to the bishops… only through the Successor of Saint Peter.”

Although many of those who started the schisms and heresies condemned by the Catholic Church were first Catholic bishops, their newly formed schismatic sects were without jurisdiction, and therefore they did not have the ability to pass on Apostolic Succession.

Always remember these important facts:

1st fact: Bishops who do not hold spiritual powers from the pope are intruded or schismatic bishops.

2nd fact: Not one of the Traditionalist clerics holds his spiritual powers from the pope, and therefore they are in schism according to the unchangeable teaching of the Catholic Church.


3rd fact:
Pope Pius XII wrote in MysticiCorporis Christi: “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”


4th fact
: Bishops in schism, heresy, or apostasy cannot pass on Apostolic Succession, although it is possible for some of them to pass on valid orders.

5th fact: Not one cleric in the Traditional Movement has ordinary jurisdiction because: “This power of jurisdiction flows to the bishops only through the Successor of Saint Peter.” Epikeia is not an act of jurisdiction, and epikeia cannot be used to obtain jurisdiction. “Even if valid orders exist, where jurisdiction is lacking there is no real Apostolic Succession.” Therefore, the Traditional Movement is a non-Catholic sect!


All Authority Comes from Peter
, Who is like unto God Blog Spot, Thursday, April 4, 2013. [/b]

I did not link the blog as it may not conform to the posting rules.


Änσnymσus

  • Guest
How can SVs hold Contradictory views say they are One?
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2013, 01:01:00 PM »
Quote from: Guest
A priest ordained in the 1950's, who knew v2 was a fraud, once said to me that the sedevacantists with all their differing beliefs can't be the One Church as they are clearly not One in Doctrine and Worship. It made sense.

It seems the only thing SV's are united on is their theory that it is God's Will to leave his Church shepherd-less for 55 years?

They have no remedy nor do their leaders care for one ... certainly nothing to cheer for, or be a part of.


There is no unity in the novus ordo church and that pertains to liturgy because every new order church runs it's "liturgical show" in a different manner.

Traditio, to use a baseball phrase, really hit this one out of the park. I'll quote it in full later today.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
How can SVs hold Contradictory views say they are One?
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2013, 02:20:23 PM »
Quote from: Guest
*Traditionalist clerics function as if they have spiritual authority in the Church. For that reason they reject the truth that: “All spiritual authority comes from Peter.”
 
*Traditionalists reject the truth that, “The Apostolic See is the sole source of legitimate power,” and that unless a bishop received a papal mandate and jurisdiction through a Vicar of Jesus Christ, he does not have legitimate power.

*No Traditionalist accepts the truth explained by Dom Guéranger: “We, then, both priests and people, have a right to know whence our pastors have received their power. If they claim our obedience without having been sent by the bishop of Rome, we must refuse to receive them for they are not acknowledged by Christ as His ministers. They must be as aliens to us, for they have not been sent, they are not pastors.”

*Traditionalists are a conglomerate, rolled together concoction of chaotic, disorganized, incompetent, uncontrollable, unmanageable, unruly, and disobedient groups of separated non-Catholic sects, divisions, and factions who continue to manifest their quarrelsome, argumentative, competitive, jealous, and challenging attitudes toward each other.

The power of jurisdiction does not pass on from bishop to bishop. This power of jurisdiction flows to the bishops only through the Successor of Saint Peter, and without it Apostolic Succession does not pass from one Catholic bishop to all the bishops he consecrates.

Listen to Pope Leo XIII as we again read from Satis Cognitum:

“14. It is necessary, therefore, to bear this in mind, viz., that nothing was conferred on the Apostles apart from Peter, but that several things were conferred upon Peter apart from the Apostles… whatever He did not deny to the others he gave only through him. So that whereas Peter alone received many things, He conferred nothing on any of the rest without Peter participating in it.”

The Unity of the Church would be destroyed if all of the intruder, schismatic, and heretical bishops who received their consecration without Peter participating in it actually passed on Apostolic Succession? Would there be as many non-Catholic branches still claiming to be Catholics as there have been bishops who were separated from the Catholic Church these past 2,000 years?

All such consecrations are illicit and received outside of the Catholic Church unless Peter participates in them? It is only if Peter participates in their consecration that bishops will receive jurisdiction and have what is necessary to pass on Apostolic Succession? None of the Traditionalists bishops coming from the Old Catholic-line, the Thuc-line, or the Lefebvre-line had Peter participate in their consecration?

Always remember an important truth Pope Pius XII wrote in this encyclical:

“The power of jurisdiction… flows to the bishops… only through the Successor of Saint Peter.”

Although many of those who started the schisms and heresies condemned by the Catholic Church were first Catholic bishops, their newly formed schismatic sects were without jurisdiction, and therefore they did not have the ability to pass on Apostolic Succession.

Always remember these important facts:

1st fact: Bishops who do not hold spiritual powers from the pope are intruded or schismatic bishops.

2nd fact: Not one of the Traditionalist clerics holds his spiritual powers from the pope, and therefore they are in schism according to the unchangeable teaching of the Catholic Church.


3rd fact:
Pope Pius XII wrote in MysticiCorporis Christi: “For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy.”


4th fact
: Bishops in schism, heresy, or apostasy cannot pass on Apostolic Succession, although it is possible for some of them to pass on valid orders.

5th fact: Not one cleric in the Traditional Movement has ordinary jurisdiction because: “This power of jurisdiction flows to the bishops only through the Successor of Saint Peter.” Epikeia is not an act of jurisdiction, and epikeia cannot be used to obtain jurisdiction. “Even if valid orders exist, where jurisdiction is lacking there is no real Apostolic Succession.” Therefore, the Traditional Movement is a non-Catholic sect!


All Authority Comes from Peter
, Who is like unto God Blog Spot, Thursday, April 4, 2013. [/b]

I did not link the blog as it may not conform to the posting rules.


This post would be pure gold if these were ordinary times.  However, since they are not, the poster needs to stop being a stenographer and think for himself.  We clearly are in times of near apostasy - didn't the current pope just say in an interview that he does not believe in a Catholic god?  

With the election of Paul 6th, and the creation of the conciliar church which offers a liturgical service that even novus ordo cheerleaders will sometimes admit actually impedes the growth of Catholic piety then it really becomes INVALID to quote a pre-Vatican II theologian to make the case for a post-Vatican II aberration.  The cure must match the illness.  

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
How can SVs hold Contradictory views say they are One?
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2013, 02:32:03 PM »
Quote from: Guest
A priest ordained in the 1950's, who knew v2 was a fraud, once said to me that the sedevacantists with all their differing beliefs can't be the One Church as they are clearly not One in Doctrine and Worship. It made sense.

It seems the only thing SV's are united on is their theory that it is God's Will to leave his Church shepherd-less for 55 years?

They have no remedy nor do their leaders care for one ... certainly nothing to cheer for, or be a part of.


This is the ONLY point that sedes or any Catholics need to agree on.  All true Catholics are united in the faith and the teachings of the  Church  to begin with.  

Sede Vecantists all agree that the chair is empty.  Because we are Catholic and have devotion to the papacy, we know that the imposters in the Vatican who claim to be pope , and are destroying the Church and teaching heretical doctrines,  CANT be true popes.