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Author Topic: Home birth, does she have a choice?  (Read 4740 times)

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Offline jen51

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Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2017, 01:11:54 PM »
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  • Unmarried people often have strong opinions about birth or child raising.  It is not unusual for them to change their views when in the actual situation.  I suspect that most of us parents here have done that.
    That's a good point to consider. I was adamantly against birthing my babies in a hospital until I had to. I sill consider hospitals to be abhorant in most ways but am thankful I had one to save my life and my baby's. If only the medical system was just, and ran by good Catholics.
    Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
    ~James 1:27


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #31 on: November 07, 2017, 01:28:36 PM »
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  • I would agree with others, that a predetermined and unconditional decision to birth at home is simply stupid, and it belies a harmful arrogance.
    .
    Birth at home if everyone is healthy to do so, and include a professional (midwife).  Prior to marriage, the husband doesn't even know the reproductive health of his wife or of his unborn child(ren).  And medical decisions are, by definition, subjective.  You make them case by case, given the information and evidence available for you/your wife/child.  It's one thing to have an ideal, it's another thing to draw lines in the sand blindly.
    .
    Childbirth is not the only concern here.  What other bad ideas does the husband have about health?  I'm not talking about matters of controversy, I'm talking about his rejection of medical professionals as such.  Is he going to allow his wife and children to brush their teeth (I recall a family who religiously refused teeth brushing, and all of their kids teeth were rotting out of their head by age seven or so)?  Can they go to the ER if they're sick or injured?  Serious questions.  It's patently false that all O.B.'s perform abortions (in fact, we had the pleasure of a Catholic O.B., prolife, with many children of his own).  Yet it hasn't stopped the man from making very dramatic, predetermined conclusions about the matter despite how obviously false it is.  What other bad ideas does he have?
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    I do allow for the possibility that the OP's friend is blowing things out of proportion.  What's being described sounds like a caricature.  But I'll leave aside any serious efforts of questioning the credibility of those involved, we'll leave it at a simple mention.
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #32 on: November 07, 2017, 01:52:19 PM »
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  • There's a lot more to this topic than is being discussed here... 6 of our 7 children were born at home, I  can't even begin to name all the pros that resulted from having them at home.

    Our eldest was born in a "Catholic" hospital with a doula, and it was a fight with the medical staff from beginning to end to have our wishes met.  In today's world, pregnancies are considered a "condition," not something normal.

    Our youngest was born with severe eczema and severe food allergies.  The "professional" medical world wants to just suppress the symptoms with steroids, and and not treat the cause... after nearly 2 1/2 years of using "natural" remedies, he's slowly overcoming his ailments.  Yes, we've had to resort to "modern" practices for the most severe reactions, but they were life saving procedures rather than remedies...

    I have 2 sisters who were RNs, they went to medical school with the Catholic Faith and were appalled by what's taught today... neither practice their professions any longer today due to now having families of their own. They still keep themselves informed of the medical practices as they evolve, but now spend most of their efforts in studying natural and homeopathic remedies.

    BTW, it's hell fighting the establishment regarding vaccinations... having your children at home definitely relieves a lot of the harassment that occurs when one is under the thumb of hospital doctor.
    In certain states, if parents refuse the mandatory Hib at the birth of their child, the state CPS can be called and the child can be taken away from the parents, injected with all the mandatory vaccines, and possibly not even returned to the parents.
    Perhaps that is why this potential husband seems unhinged.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #33 on: November 07, 2017, 02:50:35 PM »
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  • In certain states, if parents refuse the mandatory Hib at the birth of their child, the state CPS can be called and the child can be taken away from the parents, injected with all the mandatory vaccines, and possibly not even returned to the parents.
    Perhaps that is why this potential husband seems unhinged.
    .
    Which ones?  That's not the sort of thing a person says vaguely, unless they're trying to scare-monger.  This is the sort of information where specifics must be given.
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #34 on: November 07, 2017, 03:00:28 PM »
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  • https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html

    Check your own state.

    I witnessed a nurse coming in and giving our second grandchild the vaccine at only one hour after birth.

    The child screamed and could not be consoled for one hour afterwards.

    The third grandchild also received her vaccination within one hour after birth too. She also screamed, so the nurse bundled her in blankets and let her scream/sleep it off.


    Offline jen51

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #35 on: November 07, 2017, 03:23:31 PM »
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  • .
    Which ones?  That's not the sort of thing a person says vaguely, unless they're trying to scare-monger.  This is the sort of information where specifics must be given.
    .
    Mith, I'm not the one who posted that, but I've looked into the topic a lot. As far as I know, there is no state that requires newborns to have the shot. However, many hospitals will refuse to let you have your baby there if you refuse the shot. Too, it is not uncommon for healthcare workers to lie about this, or to make you believe it is required. Many will resort to scare tactics, which should always be taken seriously. If you refuse the vaccine, it's not that uncommon for the hospital social worker to accuse you of medical neglect. Even if you aren't required by law to give it, refusing it will incite them to press charges on you and they will often win by unfair and dishonest tactics. Once your child is in custody of the state, at least in Kansas, they can and will inject your child with many vaccines against your consent. 
    So be very careful about your choice of hospital. Get the vaccine question settled well in advance and steer clear of hospitals with this kind of ethos. I know people first hand who have went through this horror. It pays to do research, and have an attorney ready in an instant.
    Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
    ~James 1:27

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #36 on: November 07, 2017, 03:53:40 PM »
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  • I am aware that vaccines are pushed, we experienced that with our daughter.
    .
    Anonymous, I am asking for you to support your claim that "in some states" the refusal to vaccinate can authorize CPS to seize the infant.  That you say "some states" implies that you know something (like the "fact" that there are some places where such authorization doesn't exist).
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    I know all about vaccine schedules.  We have probably forty, because each time the doctors ask, we just say "eh, we're not sure, can you give us some info so we can think about it?".  Vaccine schedules don't answer the question.
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    This type of scare-mongering is harmful, though.  And that's all I think you're doing, until and unless you can support your very specific claim.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #37 on: November 07, 2017, 04:03:31 PM »
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  • I was vague for a reason.

    If you want to avoid scare mongering, then it is important for the girl to search her own state, ask the hospitals, and get advice from a GYN.

    She will have to do her own homework.


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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #38 on: November 07, 2017, 05:26:38 PM »
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  • I agree with posters like jen, Jayne, and St Ignatius that home birth with a midwife is better for many reasons, if one can do it.

    When the OP says the future husband believes in home birth ONLY, does that mean he wouldn't even allow the wife to be taken to the hospital should a difficulty arise which required it?   If yes, then the posters who advise finding a different fiancé might be on to something.  But I would be surprised if he were that extreme.  [Though I realize anything is possible.]  And it was not clear what the bride-to-be's opinion is on this.  If she is worried about it, the fiancé ought to explain to her his reasoning.  And there are a lot of better reasons than supposedly all OB's are abortionists, although like Jayne said, having an abortionist deliver my baby would give me the creeps.  

    Agree with posters that it is possible to find Catholic, pro-life OB's, although maybe not everywhere.  I would certainly look for one. 
    https://aaplog.wildapricot.org/directory/
    http://www.priestsforlife.org/doctors/
    https://cogforlife.org/prolife-physician-list/


    I also agree that vaccination is one of many good reasons to avoid hospital birth if possible.  They really do put pressure on, and I have heard of them vaccinating even against the wishes of the patient or spokesman for the patient.  

    Lastly, emergencies can arise at any time for various reasons.  Some women may have to get an ambulance to the hospital before the due date etc... So (assuming the fiancé is not against going to the hospital in case of emergency) what's the problem with planning a home birth, and calling an ambulance if anything should go wrong?  I have friends who were planning to use a birthing center at a hospital, but due to unforeseen circuмstances, they wound up needing to go to a different hospital by ambulance instead.  


      

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #39 on: November 07, 2017, 05:30:00 PM »
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  • Mith, I'm not the one who posted that, but I've looked into the topic a lot. As far as I know, there is no state that requires newborns to have the shot. However, many hospitals will refuse to let you have your baby there if you refuse the shot. Too, it is not uncommon for healthcare workers to lie about this, or to make you believe it is required. Many will resort to scare tactics, which should always be taken seriously. If you refuse the vaccine, it's not that uncommon for the hospital social worker to accuse you of medical neglect. Even if you aren't required by law to give it, refusing it will incite them to press charges on you and they will often win by unfair and dishonest tactics. Once your child is in custody of the state, at least in Kansas, they can and will inject your child with many vaccines against your consent.
    So be very careful about your choice of hospital. Get the vaccine question settled well in advance and steer clear of hospitals with this kind of ethos. I know people first hand who have went through this horror. It pays to do research, and have an attorney ready in an instant.


    Excellent & important post. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #40 on: November 07, 2017, 05:53:11 PM »
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  • Sure. Think of all the poor parents of canonized saints who had homebirths since the beginning of time prior to the 20th century. I guess they all went to hell.

    Uhm, that was back when people generally did not have ready access to medical care and before much of the technology required to intervene in the event of trouble existed.  Apply your brain before typing, would you?  Medical technology brings new considerations to moral questions.  So, for instance, things which may have been considered extraordinary means to preserve life are now commonplace, routine, and ordinary.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #41 on: November 07, 2017, 06:43:41 PM »
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  • Just a little trick for the HepB vaccine ... to stay off the radar.  Don't tell them you're anti-vax.  Just say that you prefer to delay the shot until after the child's immune system develops a little more, especially from ingesting colostrum.  Just tell them that you feel that it's rather early given the immature state of the baby's immune system.  Tell them you'll schedule it with your pediatrician when you're ready.  Avoids the "anti-vax" red flag and gets you out of there.  To make it a proper mental reservation, vs. a lie:  "I would prefer to wait [indefinitely] on the HepB vaccine, until after [infinitely after] the child's immune system develops a little more in the wake of the colostrum from nursing.  When we're ready [aka never], we'll schedule it with our pediatrician."

    Just some comments from another forum out there on the web:

    Quote
    Apr 26, 2012 at 12:34 PM
    Futuremommy11
    @hopetobe42012I'm Pro-vaccine but also want to give my baby's immune system a little time to develop. I got vaccinated myself because I'm an RN. I understand risk of transmission but my sons will be very very low as I will be a sahm after birth and my husband is vaccinated as well. I'm ok with vitamin k shot at birth but will continue to look at preventing unnecessary procedures and shots.



    Apr 26, 2012 at 12:43 PM
    mamakate08
    @Futuremommy11I am pro vaccine but I always delay that one. This is #4 for me.

    Offline PG

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #42 on: November 07, 2017, 09:00:20 PM »
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  • ladislaus - your mental reservation stinks just like you.  Just because we all have access to healthcare does not mean that we are gravely obliged to access it.  You are a fear mongering fool.  And, having a child in a hospital is not free.  Some people might find it too expensive(averaging about $3500 per stay).  Fortunately, for those who have faith, God doesn't change.  God provides an abundance.    
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #43 on: November 07, 2017, 09:05:56 PM »
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  • Just a little trick for the HepB vaccine ... to stay off the radar.  Don't tell them you're anti-vax.  Just say that you prefer to delay the shot until after the child's immune system develops a little more, especially from ingesting colostrum.  Just tell them that you feel that it's rather early given the immature state of the baby's immune system.  Tell them you'll schedule it with your pediatrician when you're ready.  Avoids the "anti-vax" red flag and gets you out of there.  To make it a proper mental reservation, vs. a lie:  "I would prefer to wait [indefinitely] on the HepB vaccine, until after [infinitely after] the child's immune system develops a little more in the wake of the colostrum from nursing.  When we're ready [aka never], we'll schedule it with our pediatrician."

    Just some comments from another forum out there on the web:
    That is fantastic advice!
     I am sorry I could not include all details with the original post, but the young woman referred to is not an acquaintance of mine but a real friend, so she frequently asks my advice and has expressed concerns with marrying this man for other reasons already, so this could be a deal breaker for her. I have not had a chance to talk to her about this specifically but wanted to be ready with the correct advice. 
    As to the vaccine issue and hospitals, it is a pain to have to wrestle with pushy nurses after you have your baby but it’s not impossible. If you know your stuff. I know cause I’ve done it! No poison for my newborn, sorry Doc!
    That’s why I like Ladislaus’ trick in saying you are delaying, instead of having to endure the imminent storm from even breathing the word ‘anti-vax’, but again it’s not an impossible situation at this point. Unless your hospital is nαzι about it there’s no reason to exclude an OB, a crew of nurses, and advanced equipment for exclusive homebirth. 
    Both options should be available to the woman that is my only point here and why I asked the question in the first place. I don’t think that home birth is the only option for Traditional Catholic families and it shouldn’t be forced on an unwilling woman either. Which in this case looks like it will be. 

    Sorry Ladislaus I used your post to address several other posters here too  :D

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    Re: Home birth, does she have a choice?
    « Reply #44 on: November 07, 2017, 09:15:25 PM »
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  • ladislaus - your mental reservation stinks just like you.  Just because we all have access to healthcare does not mean that we are gravely obliged to access it.  You are a fear mongering fool.  And, having a child in a hospital is not free.  Some people might find it too expensive(averaging about $3500 per stay).  Fortunately, for those who have faith, God doesn't change.  God provides an abundance.    
    All of my children were delivered in a hospital covered by Insurance. The midwife option was minimum $2500 out of pocket. Also the midwife has no guarantee of being available, and if she isn’t she has no refund on deposit whether she assisted at the birth or not. 
    I did have a midwife once through the hospital for one birth and it didn’t seem different than a doctor anyway. I just saw her more often and for checking in on me. And that didn't matter much because that’s what the nurses are for anyways.