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Author Topic: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity  (Read 3052 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
« on: May 21, 2023, 10:08:40 AM »
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  • Can anyone point me toward a resource which discusses whether or not moderate to moderate-serious stuttering can invalidate the essential form of a sacrament, thereby rendering it invalid?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #1 on: May 21, 2023, 01:20:35 PM »
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  • As long as no essential word root is omitted, I don’t see an issue.  It often happens that a priest will repeat a part because they miss a line break or don’t see a word.  But the meaning remains clear.

    If a priest said something like Hocococ estest Cococorpus meuum, the meaning would remain clear and this would simply be in the category of poor pronunciation.

    There’s a bigger problem with omission than repetition, either or words or parts of words … if a root part of the word is omitted (vs. just a word ending).


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #2 on: May 21, 2023, 01:33:26 PM »
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  • If poor pronunciation affected validity, then Cardinal Cushing and his Boston honking/excited goose noises through every liturgy...

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #3 on: May 21, 2023, 11:25:32 PM »
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  • Pohle-Preuss, The Sacraments: A Dogmatic Treatise (vol. 1): The Sacrements in General, Baptism, Confirmation:
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    Alterations made in ignorance of the language employed, and without heretical intent, do not render Baptism invalid, provided that, according to popular estimation, the objective meaning of the formula is preserved. This was decided by Pope Zachary in a case submitted to him by St. Boniface, where an ignorant cleric had mispronounced the usual formula as follows: “Ego te baptizo in nomine patria et filia et spiritu sancta.” [Cfr. Mansi, Conc., t. XII, p. 325.]
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #4 on: May 22, 2023, 01:35:07 AM »
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  • What about:

    I baptize you in the name of the Father OOPS and of the Son...

    And

    I baptize you, sorry buddy, in the name of the Father...

    ?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #5 on: May 22, 2023, 06:21:17 AM »
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  • If poor pronunciation affected validity, then Cardinal Cushing and his Boston honking/excited goose noises through every liturgy...

    Yes, I've heard recordings of these ... :laugh1:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #6 on: May 22, 2023, 06:24:13 AM »
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  • Pohle-Preuss, The Sacraments: A Dogmatic Treatise (vol. 1): The Sacrements in General, Baptism, Confirmation:

    Right, as long as the meaning remains clear, there's no issue with some repetition, hesitation, and the like.

    In English, for instance, it might be ... "I ba-ba-ba-pat-ta-ta-tize you ..."  Meaning of this is still clear to anyone who hears it, that it's a stuttered up form of "baptize".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #7 on: May 22, 2023, 06:26:07 AM »
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  • What about:

    I baptize you in the name of the Father OOPS and of the Son...

    And

    I baptize you, sorry buddy, in the name of the Father...

    ?

    Again, is the meaning still clear?  Those phrases are clearly understood to be interjections that aren't part of the core meaning.  If I'm trying to hit something with a hammer and say, "Now I'm going to hit the nail ... OW!!! ... with this hammer." (as he strikes his finger).  That's an interjection, but the meaning of the sentence "Now I'm going to hit the nail with this hammer." remains clear.


    Online SimpleMan

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #8 on: May 22, 2023, 07:57:14 AM »
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  • But wouldn't a priest, whose speech were so impaired that he could not pronounce the words of the various sacramental formulae correctly, be irregular for ordination?

    The question that then begs to be asked and answered (something entirely different from "begging the question", petitio principii), is whether a priest who was ordained not having such a defect, incurred it some time after ordination.  I know that Newchurch bends over backwards to accommodate situations where the priest cannot speak, such as dreaming up ways for nonverbal autistic priests (again, this should have been caught prior to ordination, you don't "become" autistic) to offer Mass, and then there is that travesty of a Mass celebrated using American Sign Language.  Newchurch is so desperate for priests, that they will find some way to ordain anyone... unless, of course, he wishes to offer only the Traditional Latin Mass.

    I, myself, would probably be irregular for ordination (even if I weren't married in the Eyes of God), as I do not have the suppleness of body to be able to kneel, genuflect fully without gripping onto something, or the stamina to be able to stay on my feet that long --- I can't even properly serve Mass anymore.  (In my dotage, I have even been reduced to having to take a stadium pad to Mass to sit on, as I cannot sit on a hard pew for an hour at a time.  It's a pretty sad state of affairs when a man's butt gives out.)

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #9 on: May 22, 2023, 11:07:21 AM »
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  • Right, as long as the meaning remains clear, there's no issue with some repetition, hesitation, and the like.

    In English, for instance, it might be ... "I ba-ba-ba-pat-ta-ta-tize you ..."  Meaning of this is still clear to anyone who hears it, that it's a stuttered up form of "baptize".

    What about if the priest's stuttering inadvertantly results in the addition of unintended Latin words to the form?

    For example, in giving absolution in the confessional, if he were to say, "Ego te ab-absolvo..."

    The additional "ab" is a Latin word which usually means something like "by," "from," or "away from."

    So the inadvertant stutter has actually made him to say something like, "I absolve your sins away from you" instead of "I absolve you..."

    In this case the intended meaning would still be clear to anyone who hears it, but the priest would be materially saying something else. 
     
    Would that matter?

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #10 on: May 22, 2023, 11:09:15 AM »
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  • (In my dotage, I have even been reduced to having to take a stadium pad to Mass to sit on, as I cannot sit on a hard pew for an hour at a time.  It's a pretty sad state of affairs when a man's butt gives out.)

    :laugh2::laugh1:


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #11 on: May 22, 2023, 11:52:35 AM »
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  • Right, as long as the meaning remains clear, there's no issue with some repetition, hesitation, and the like.

    In English, for instance, it might be ... "I ba-ba-ba-pat-ta-ta-tize you ..."  Meaning of this is still clear to anyone who hears it, that it's a stuttered up form of "baptize".
    Fr. Alessio, SSPX, stutters frequently, but the meaning is clear in what he says. As Lad's example above, when he stutters everyone knows he is not adding extra "ba"s creating a new word, but is only stuck in the word and once he gets unstuck, he continues where he left off.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Stuttering and Sacramental Validity
    « Reply #12 on: May 22, 2023, 06:29:04 PM »
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  • But wouldn't a priest, whose speech were so impaired that he could not pronounce the words of the various sacramental formulae correctly, be irregular for ordination?
    .

    Yes, probably.