Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on November 13, 2016, 02:00:57 PM
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Can't find anything online, as in catechisms. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Unfaithfulness, adultery.
Alcoholism or drug-problems.
Physical or verbal abuse.
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Unfaithfulness, adultery.
Alcoholism or drug-problems.
Physical or verbal abuse.
what to do if there doesnt seem to be a fair reason like you listed, its been going on for years, even after talking to trad pastor and a counselor?
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Oh, there is a reason! Will the person come forward and say what it is?
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Oh, there is a reason! Will the person come forward and say what it is?
late starting rosary the last week. seriously.
other reasons, tired, headache, i dont sound serious asking
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what to do if there doesnt seem to be a fair reason like you listed, its been going on for years, even after talking to trad pastor and a counselor?
That must be hard. If I was married and my wife always refused the marital debt I would probably stop asking for it. My reasoning is that every time she refuses the debt without a good reason it is another sin on her part, so if I stopped asking it would prevent her from sinning.
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what to do if there doesnt seem to be a fair reason like you listed, its been going on for years, even after talking to trad pastor and a counselor?
That must be hard. If I was married and my wife always refused the marital debt I would probably stop asking for it. My reasoning is that every time she refuses the debt without a good reason it is another sin on her part, so if I stopped asking it would prevent her from sinning.
ive thought about that, but i think i (we) have the duty to keep trying, to try and have children.
i just dont think she understands the limits on when she can say no. and im not finding much in the catechism.
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Is the marriage consumated?
Have you spoken to a priest?
Is your wife sick?
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Is the marriage consumated?
Have you spoken to a priest?
Is your wife sick?
Yes, when we got married.
Yes, several times after marrying, plus during marriage prep (sspx), He's explained what are just reasons, but all I have are notes I took.
No. She is in good health.
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If you're dealing with 100% refusal (not just pushing you off most of the time) and have 0 children, I think you have 2 paths -- how to work toward solving the problem OR how to work toward getting out of the situation.
If your spouse does not intend to have children, then the marriage may be invalid.
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If you're dealing with 100% refusal (not just pushing you off most of the time) and have 0 children, I think you have 2 paths -- how to work toward solving the problem OR how to work toward getting out of the situation.
If your spouse does not intend to have children, then the marriage may be invalid.
Its not 100% but its the majority of the time I try, and when she consents she's very passive. We've tried working it our with our trad pastor, 2 different ones, but each time they just gave theological advise. It was impersonal, and each time just one time. I'd have to keep asking for another appointment a few times, and couldn't get the priest to follow through.
So we went to a marriage counselor (happens to be a conservative novus ordo priest, and licensed counselor). It helped a lot with communication and understanding each other, and the conjugal life did improve. But he discontinued it thinking we were okay, but this problem has continued. He never went into the morality of the marriage debt.
So either we go back to this counselor-priest (he's planning on moving to another diocese I think), try again with our trad pastor (who frankly I lost trust in), I just bear it and hope she changes, or if she doesn't at some point separate temporarily. What else could I do?
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Communication!
Until you break through to the reason why she's pushing you off, you won't be able to resolve the problem. If it takes visiting the counselor to get her to open up, then that's what you should do. I'm not surprised that you don't get very far with your Trad priest as it does take a certain calling to be able to help people get to the real heart of the problem and they generally have dozens of other (easier) things demanding their attention.
Some possibilities:
- uninterested in physical relations and not aware that it's her duty even if she doesn't feel like it
- afraid of pregnancy / children ... is she a stay-at-home wife or would children force her into a major life change?
- unhappy with you and/or her life in general ... there could be as little as one real problem upsetting her and everything else can fall into the pattern of general unhappiness
Try investing a good deal of time talking to her without expecting anything in return. Offer the short-term suffering up for the long-term good of your marriage. And, pray often -- both with her and for her.
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Communication!
Until you break through to the reason why she's pushing you off, you won't be able to resolve the problem. If it takes visiting the counselor to get her to open up, then that's what you should do. I'm not surprised that you don't get very far with your Trad priest as it does take a certain calling to be able to help people get to the real heart of the problem and they generally have dozens of other (easier) things demanding their attention.
Some possibilities:
- uninterested in physical relations and not aware that it's her duty even if she doesn't feel like it
- afraid of pregnancy / children ... is she a stay-at-home wife or would children force her into a major life change?
- unhappy with you and/or her life in general ... there could be as little as one real problem upsetting her and everything else can fall into the pattern of general unhappiness
Try investing a good deal of time talking to her without expecting anything in return. Offer the short-term suffering up for the long-term good of your marriage. And, pray often -- both with her and for her.
Thank you. Very helpful words.
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Sex isn't about "getting it". It's an expression of love and pestering or pressuring for sex is not an expression of love. When a woman feels loved, honored, and cherished she usually wants to have sex with her husband but being pressured or pestered is a total turn off.
A man needs to woo his wife, not demand his rights. (not something men in general like to hear) But romance usually works with a woman! Not if the romance is used to manipulate though, it must be genuine. We don't like feeling "used" or manipulated.
Treat her with a lot of TLC for the next 1,2,3 months with no expectation of a "return" and then talk with her and see if you might be doing something that turns her off.
Speaking as a woman who has talked with a lot of other women (yes we do talk about sex with one another) I can tell you that husbands have an (unconscious) habit of doing things that douse our ardour and what should be an expression of love becomes a chore and that disappointment leads us to avoid it. Sex should not be a chore for either the husband or the wife.
Just my 2 cents.
p.s. if you really think a counsellor is called for do not go to a priest, they know nothing about the sɛҳuąƖ dynamics between men and women, it's just not part of their world. A conservative married man or woman would be able to give better advice.
Think of it this way, would you go to a priest for specific financial advice? True, he can tell you to be responsible with your money and may be able to give some general advice about the wisdom of savings but he could not give you specific advice about reaching your financial goals. It's similar with husband/wife issues. The priest can give you general advice about responsibilities but not detailed advice on how to have a happy and fulfilling married life, for that you need advice from someone who is married.
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Sex isn't about "getting it". It's an expression of love and pestering or pressuring for sex is not an expression of love. When a woman feels loved, honored, and cherished she usually wants to have sex with her husband but being pressured or pestered is a total turn off.
A man needs to woo his wife, not demand his rights. (not something men in general like to hear) But romance usually works with a woman! Not if the romance is used to manipulate though, it must be genuine. We don't like feeling "used" or manipulated.
Treat her with a lot of TLC for the next 1,2,3 months with no expectation of a "return" and then talk with her and see if you might be doing something that turns her off.
Speaking as a woman who has talked with a lot of other women (yes we do talk about sex with one another) I can tell you that husbands have an (unconscious) habit of doing things that douse our ardour and what should be an expression of love becomes a chore and that disappointment leads us to avoid it. Sex should not be a chore for either the husband or the wife.
Just my 2 cents.
p.s. if you really think a counsellor is called for do not go to a priest, they know nothing about the sɛҳuąƖ dynamics between men and women, it's just not part of their world. A conservative married man or woman would be able to give better advice.
Think of it this way, would you go to a priest for specific financial advice? True, he can tell you to be responsible with your money and may be able to give some general advice about the wisdom of savings but he could not give you specific advice about reaching your financial goals. It's similar with husband/wife issues. The priest can give you general advice about responsibilities but not detailed advice on how to have a happy and fulfilling married life, for that you need advice from someone who is married.
i agree. i need to work on wooing her better. the issue lately has been trying to have relations on fertile days. ill remind her, show romance and affection, but theres a pressure to try during that window of fertility. and we're getting old, so theres an added urgency.
more communication, date nights, wooing her. enduring this issue, praying God resolves it.
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I have two angles to approach this problem. The first one is the most obvious: it is wrong to hold out on your spouse. It is a mortal sin. If you want to end you rmarriage or cause a separation, there is no faster way than to do this to them. Sometimes it's because of infidelity. Other times, they just don't want to do it, which is amazing, considering our sexed up culture. For Catholics, these days, it seems that NFP can be abused, as there is a fear of getting pregnant. But Church teaching is incontrovertible: even NFP can be abused, and a spouse should never refuse to do this. Listen to the following:
The Sanctity of Marriage: The Duty of Motherhood vs the Abuses of NFP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSY7FqmJ7js
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/mSY7FqmJ7js[/youtube]
On the other hand, perhaps things are not going smoothly on the homefront. Sometimes she does this because she feels insecure. Perhaps there's not a steady paycheck. Perhaps a lot of the burden for keeping the house in order rests on her shoulders, and she's terrified of added responsibility of possibly getting pregnant. In such a case, that is no excuse whatsoever, but helping more around the house or doing something to ensure your spouse feels secure about your family's future may be a possible avenue for you to instill confidence in the household.
This is not a nice situation to be in, and a lot of people are embarassed to have this issue. It is more widespread than you think, and it's a shame that people have to put each other through this kind of an ordeal in a time when stable marriages are so rare. All the more reason to do your best to try to crack the code and make it work.
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Women usually have a heightened libido during their fertile times so perhaps the "pressure" to conceive is suppressing hers.
If God wants you to have children you will, so let go of the "window of opportunity" idea for a while and just concentrate on each other.
We women can get some fanciful ideas sometimes and she may imagine that you only want her because she can bring a child into the world. Reassure her that you love and desire her for who she is, not what she can do for you.
:pray: for you and your wife.
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Communication!
Until you break through to the reason why she's pushing you off, you won't be able to resolve the problem.
This. Every other post on this thread is a waste of time and nothing but idle speculation. There could be a hundred different reasons why she's like that.
If you have a deep enough relationship, you should just be able to talk to her about it and she could give you some honest answers. If she's reluctant, you can ask her a series of simple yes or no types of questions.
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Speaking as a woman who has talked with a lot of other women (yes we do talk about sex with one another) I can tell you that husbands ...
Seriously? You think that it's OK to discuss such intimate details that should remain between you and your husband with other people? So you think it's OK to complain about your husband's sɛҳuąƖ "performance" to other women? So your husband has to walk around among your peers wondering if your friends are chuckling about him in their heads knowing that he might be "lame in bed".
Shame on you.
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Speaking as a woman who has talked with a lot of other women (yes we do talk about sex with one another) I can tell you that husbands have an (unconscious) habit of doing things that douse our ardour and what should be an expression of love becomes a chore and that disappointment leads us to avoid it. Sex should not be a chore for either the husband or the wife.
If your husband does things that "douse [your] ardor" (and it's always the husband, never the wife, who's to blame, eh?), then go talk to him about it and stop prattling to your friends.
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Speaking as a woman who has talked with a lot of other women (yes we do talk about sex with one another) I can tell you that husbands ...
Seriously? You think that it's OK to discuss such intimate details that should remain between you and your husband with other people? So you think it's OK to complain about your husband's sɛҳuąƖ "performance" to other women? So your husband has to walk around among your peers wondering if your friends are chuckling about him in their heads knowing that he might be "lame in bed".
Shame on you.
Discussion does NOT equal gossip. Get your "lame" mind out of the gutter.
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When was the last time you brought her flowers?
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Discussion does NOT equal gossip. Get your "lame" mind out of the gutter.
Discussing the sɛҳuąƖ relationship you have with your spouse with people other than your spouse is sinful ... unless it's done with a priest, for just reasons, or under the condition of anonymity. Prattling about it with your friends is sinful. You have an extremely lame moral compass, or none at all.
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Maybe she's worn out and tired and you are a complete turn off to her?
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Discussion does NOT equal gossip. Get your "lame" mind out of the gutter.
Discussing the sɛҳuąƖ relationship you have with your spouse with people other than your spouse is sinful ... unless it's done with a priest, for just reasons, or under the condition of anonymity. Prattling about it with your friends is sinful. You have an extremely lame moral compass, or none at all.
This seems like a random opinion on your part. I can't imagine a theological basis for the idea that if you can seek advice anonymously it's OK, but otherwise, it's sinful.
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It would depend on the intention. If the intent is to humiliate one's spouse, then of course it would be sinful, if the intent is to seek council from a trusted friend about an issue in the marriage, then it wouldn't be sinful. However, one must careful that the person would not spread information about the spouse. I personally have not heard any woman bash her husband on the basis of performance. Lack of amorous feelings usually stem from an issue outside the bedroom.
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Discussion does NOT equal gossip. Get your "lame" mind out of the gutter.
Discussing the sɛҳuąƖ relationship you have with your spouse with people other than your spouse is sinful ... unless it's done with a priest, for just reasons, or under the condition of anonymity. Prattling about it with your friends is sinful. You have an extremely lame moral compass, or none at all.
This seems like a random opinion on your part. I can't imagine a theological basis for the idea that if you can seek advice anonymously it's OK, but otherwise, it's sinful.
That should be quite obvious. See the post made after mine.
However, one must careful that the person would not spread information about the spouse
In the one case, potentially negative information would spread around about an actual person whose identity is known ... thus being akin to detraction.
Since people are obviously sensitive about sɛҳuąƖ matters, let me reset. I talk to my friends about the fact that my husband has various disgusting bathroom habits. Now these people know this negative information about a specific person that they know. That's sinful and is in the category of detraction. If, however, you mention it somewhere anonymously, like, say, here, in this Anonymous subforum, in the interests of seeking advice, then no particular person's reputation is being damaged.
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It would depend on the intention.
No, intention alone doesn't suffice. Even if well intended, one can objectively harm a person's reputation by spreading potentially negative information about them, thus committing detraction (even when the activity is not sinful). People have a right in justice to their good reputation. There has to be proportionately grave reason for discussing this information, and it should only be discussed if there's no alternative way of seeking advice that would NOT do harm to the person's reputation. Most of this is idle female prattling and gossip ... and it's sinful.
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Even things like, "Boy, my husband constantly burps at the dinner table." or "Man, he really stinks out the bathroom at home." are detraction. They harm a person's reputation. There must be proportionate reason to bring it up other than to gossip.
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Discussion does NOT equal gossip. Get your "lame" mind out of the gutter.
Discussing the sɛҳuąƖ relationship you have with your spouse with people other than your spouse is sinful ... unless it's done with a priest, for just reasons, or under the condition of anonymity. Prattling about it with your friends is sinful. You have an extremely lame moral compass, or none at all.
3 downthumbs from the prattling female gossipers.
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This seems like a random opinion on your part. I can't imagine a theological basis for the idea that if you can seek advice anonymously it's OK, but otherwise, it's sinful.
So the "theological basis" that somehow you "can't imagine" has to do with the definition of detraction ... causing harm to a person's reputation. If you do it anonymously, in an attempt to seek advice, the person's reputation is not harmed.
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I'm pretty surprised with how many people on here give little to no practical advice and want to tip toe around about this. It all boils around basically "Well, she has to pay the marriage debt" or other ways to force her into sex based upon theological doctrine. Theological doctrine is not the way to encourage someone, especially a woman, to have relations with you. Yes, i understand it's purpose and meaning, but let's be practical for a moment. Holding crime and punishment over someone's head to force them into something they don't want to do is ultimately only going to cause further torment in your marriage.
Women are very emotionally complex. Women by nature need to feel an emotional connection to the person they love and have relations with. That connection is currently severed in your life. Just because you get along with each other or enjoy each other's company, doesn't equal she wants you to have relations with her. In the back of her mind, she may even feel disgusting by the thought of having sex with you. I'm being firm with you because, you have to hear it. Talking to pastors and counselors doesn't make her feel more in love with you or break that barrier. It just drags things out.
But Anonymus, then what do i do? Earn it. You need to make her feel like you did when you were dating. When you initially had relations for the first time. Women want to feel like you've earned them, you're her knight in shining armor, you're the leader of her pack, you're the alpha male in her life. You're her castle. Act like it. Don't come on strong and corny because she'll know what you're trying. This took time to degenerate, it'll take time to fix. Plan the long-term game. Hold your frame of mind, take the blows, and work for the goal, a functional relationship which will last til death do you part. Compliment her, do the little details women like like make her coffee in the morning, let her sleep in on weekends, take her on dates. Dress nicely at home, stay clean, invest into yourself. Go to the gym. Working out and eating well will sky rocket your self-esteem and set healthy habits which she will inevitably follow. When a woman sees her man has it together, she gets it together, women by nature want to be lead, they want to feel like they're part of your adventure in life and their being taken for the ride.
Don't even bring it up anymore. Don't even ask her. Work on yourself, work on her, and let it happen on it's own.
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So, it's wrong to talk about such things with your friends
1) because revealing negative or embarrassing things about someone without proportionate cause (to be discussed with a priest) is the sin of detraction (the gravity of which depends on the gravity of the faults being revealed). If it's done anonymously, such as OP did on this thread, and for just reason (seeking advice), then the concrete harm to someone's reputation doesn't happen. Imagine if the OP were to talk about his wife this way to his friends? Wouldn't the wife be rightly embarrassed?
and
2) when it comes to things of a sɛҳuąƖ nature, the virtue of modesty is also involved. So even if the information being spread is positive or at least indifferent, it's still contrary to modesty to discuss things that are meant to be shared intimately only with your spouse. People think that modesty involves only the sense of sight. That's not true. Just as it would be wrong to show immodest pictures of your spouse to other people, so too it's wrong to DISCUSS intimate details regarding sex with others. If I found out that my wife were talking to other women about our sɛҳuąƖ relationship, even if it was all good and positive, I would still be completely embarrassed ever to go around those women again ... due to reasons of modesty.
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I'm pretty surprised with how many people on here give little to no practical advice and want to tip toe around about this.
No, here's the problem. Any "advice" on this matter is nothing but pure speculation. People can only SPECULATE about why the wife has been behaving that way. And, seriously, if OP can't go and just talk about it with his wife, then there are deeper problems with the relationship. I know that if this were happening to me, I am close enough to my wife just to ask her about it, and we'd talk through it.
It all boils around basically "Well, she has to pay the marriage debt" or other ways to force her into sex based upon theological doctrine. Theological doctrine is not the way to encourage someone, especially a woman, to have relations with you. Yes, i understand it's purpose and meaning, but let's be practical for a moment. Holding crime and punishment over someone's head to force them into something they don't want to do is ultimately only going to cause further torment in your marriage.
No, but you can't dismiss this either. It's NOT an either/or thing. This theological principle certainly comes into play.
But Anonymus, then what do i do? Earn it. You need to make her feel like you did when you were dating. When you initially had relations for the first time.
See, while this isn't a bad piece of advice (which may or may not be relevant depending on what ACTUALLY is going on here), what you're doing is putting the onus back on the man, effectively blaming HIM for why the wife doesn't want to have relations. He could very well be treating her perfectly well. And he shouldn't need to practically worship her like a deity in order for her to treat HIM like he deserves.
So it's a two-way street. You try to take all the onus off the wife. She has responsibilities here as well. In fact, very often the lack of sex in a marriage is cyclical. sɛҳuąƖ activity is well known to release bonding hormones (oxytocin in particular) and various endorphins; these in turn increase intimacy and make women more positively inclined towards sɛҳuąƖ activity. So, if the woman were to simply meet her obligation (this "theological doctrine" that you completely disparage), then in fact it may make it more fulfilling for her.
Women want to feel like you've earned them, you're her knight in shining armor, you're the leader of her pack, you're the alpha male in her life.
Please stop disparaging the role of obligation (in justice) and charity when it comes to matters like this ... while promoting the supremacy of emotion. Charity is not always EMOTION. Even if a wife doesn't "feel" like having regular sɛҳuąƖ relations, she should do it out of CHARITY for her husband ... to fulfill his needs. And that may even be heroic virtue for her, depending on how much she may be disinclined towards it, but it's required in justice and in charity for her to do so.
And then perhaps the husband, seeing this virtue of charity in her, would be more inclined to treat HER better. You see, it's a two-way street. In almost every single one of these threads, the women pop out of the woodwork explaining how it's always the man's fault. It's usually issues on BOTH sides, and sometimes, believe it or not, the woman might be primarily to blame.
So we come full circle. These threads are a pointless waste of time.
OP, GO TALK TO YOUR WIFE ABOUT THIS ... not a bunch of anonymous clowns on a web forum.
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I'm pretty surprised with how many people on here give little to no practical advice and want to tip toe around about this. It all boils around basically "Well, she has to pay the marriage debt" or other ways to force her into sex based upon theological doctrine. Theological doctrine is not the way to encourage someone, especially a woman, to have relations with you. Yes, i understand it's purpose and meaning, but let's be practical for a moment. Holding crime and punishment over someone's head to force them into something they don't want to do is ultimately only going to cause further torment in your marriage.
Women are very emotionally complex. Women by nature need to feel an emotional connection to the person they love and have relations with. That connection is currently severed in your life. Just because you get along with each other or enjoy each other's company, doesn't equal she wants you to have relations with her. In the back of her mind, she may even feel disgusting by the thought of having sex with you. I'm being firm with you because, you have to hear it. Talking to pastors and counselors doesn't make her feel more in love with you or break that barrier. It just drags things out.
But Anonymus, then what do i do? Earn it. You need to make her feel like you did when you were dating. When you initially had relations for the first time. Women want to feel like you've earned them, you're her knight in shining armor, you're the leader of her pack, you're the alpha male in her life. You're her castle. Act like it. Don't come on strong and corny because she'll know what you're trying. This took time to degenerate, it'll take time to fix. Plan the long-term game. Hold your frame of mind, take the blows, and work for the goal, a functional relationship which will last til death do you part. Compliment her, do the little details women like like make her coffee in the morning, let her sleep in on weekends, take her on dates. Dress nicely at home, stay clean, invest into yourself. Go to the gym. Working out and eating well will sky rocket your self-esteem and set healthy habits which she will inevitably follow. When a woman sees her man has it together, she gets it together, women by nature want to be lead, they want to feel like they're part of your adventure in life and their being taken for the ride.
Don't even bring it up anymore. Don't even ask her. Work on yourself, work on her, and let it happen on it's own.
You're presuming to know her reason for avoidance is based on lack of admiration for him, or lack of feeling loved. He could do all of these things and still fail if this wasn't the problem to begin with. There are plenty of other possibilities and he might just be spinning his wheels (and becoming increasingly frustrated) if he doesn't define the problem before he attempts to solve it.
Communicate! Don't just guess.
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These threads are a pointless waste of time.
I don't think so. I think the ladies in particular need to understand and get regular reminders of what a slippery slope it can be to push off their husbands without so much as an honest explanation.
The distortion of the marriage relationship is so prevalent in our society, that you're not going to get good information just anywhere. And, that distortion is more so on the female side.
The mainstream will tell a man that he needs to butter up his wife if he expects to get something in return, but you'd never hear that the wife should take care of his wishes first if she expects to get what she wants in return. Of course, these two should happen simultaneously and without preconditions, but that's not at all what young women are taught.
Furthermore, society will tell you that men and women are equal and if he's asking more often than you're interested, it must be something wrong with him. Reality is that the desire is seldom (never) equal and the spouse on the lesser end cannot simply refuse, but must communicate and work to find long-lasting solutions to this difference just like every other obstacle in the relationship.
-MD
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These threads are a pointless waste of time.
I don't think so. I think the ladies in particular need to understand and get regular reminders of what a slippery slope it can be to push off their husbands without so much as an honest explanation.
Yes, that makes sense. I meant that they are pointless in terms of an attempt to solve the actual problem.
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The mainstream will tell a man that he needs to butter up his wife if he expects to get something in return, but you'd never hear that the wife should take care of his wishes first if she expects to get what she wants in return. Of course, these two should happen simultaneously and without preconditions, but that's not at all what young women are taught.
And we've seen this same attitude among the female posters here on these threads. They always make it about what the MAN must be doing wrong in order for this to be happening ... thereby almost condoning the wife's refusal to honor the marriage debt ... and even, as one poster did, explicitly disparaging this "theological notion". No, none of this can ever be even remotely the woman's fault. She must be the victim of the man's inability to give her what she needs.
Indeed, in some cases, there may be some truth to that. Nevertheless, the wife remains under obligation to satisfy the marriage debt both in justice and in charity to her husband ... whether she FEELS like it or not. If she DOESN'T feel like it, then complying involves a great act of charity. Neither justice nor charity are rooted in emotion but in the higher faculties, the intellect and the will.
And it's almost always a two-way street. If the woman doesn't want to share these intimate moments with her husband, he could in turn be less inclined to show HER affection ... wondering if she's attracted to him and loves him and cares about him at all. But these Trad feminists always make it about the woman's needs, telling the man that he has to just suck it up and find out what he must do to win the wife back over. This ridiculous female-goddess-worship narcissism truly annoys.
Hey, ladies, if you become attentive to your HUSBAND'S needs, maybe he'll reciprocate that with more affection, which in turn will engender more affection in you for him ... until meeting your obligations towards him becomes not a burden but a joy.
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Communicate! Don't just guess.
THIS ^^^
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These discussions always turn into a he-should, she-should.
What about what Our Lord WOULD?
What would Our Lord want you to do, think, act? What would He want you to endure? It's tough, married life. Some will give answers to do "this", b/c they're in this stage...others "that", b/c they're in that stage (of their lives/ marriage).
I am learning that I must sacrifice my will, and it hurts and I find it detestable and hard, for God. Not for my spouse, not for me, but for my Jesus. We have Heaven to fight for. And we know it's not an easy path.
Come now, my fellow Catholics. Let's get above this he-she business, and focus on Our Lord and His Will. This forum, especially the anonymous section, should be a source of help, not condemnation.
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When was the last time you told her that you love her?
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When was the last time you told her that you love her?
:facepalm:
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These discussions always turn into a he-should, she-should.
...
Let's get above this he-she business, and focus on Our Lord and His Will. This forum, especially the anonymous section, should be a source of help, not condemnation.
While your sentiments are pious, nevertheless there are some real questions about the OBLIGATIONS that spouses have towards one another in justice and in charity. It's not enough to emote. While it's admirable that I want to give up my own will, I cannot impose upon my spouse the renunciation of HER will by refusing the debt. Sorry, honey, you must give up your will, so I refuse to honor the marriage debt. Honoring that debt, even when I don't feel like doing so, for whatever reason, involves a renunciation of self-will, but not one that's merely recommended but, rather, obligatory. So these are important principles that need to be understood outside or your pious considerations.
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And this isn't so much a he vs. she as it is principle vs. emotion. BOTH husband and wife have obligations towards one another.
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These discussions always turn into a he-should, she-should.
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Let's get above this he-she business, and focus on Our Lord and His Will. This forum, especially the anonymous section, should be a source of help, not condemnation.
While your sentiments are pious, nevertheless there are some real questions about the OBLIGATIONS that spouses have towards one another in justice and in charity. It's not enough to emote. While it's admirable that I want to give up my own will, I cannot impose upon my spouse the renunciation of HER will by refusing the debt. Sorry, honey, you must give up your will, so I refuse to honor the marriage debt. Honoring that debt, even when I don't feel like doing so, for whatever reason, involves a renunciation of self-will, but not one that's merely recommended but, rather, obligatory. So these are important principles that need to be understood outside or your pious considerations.
Yes, yes, we get that. It's been stated many times in this thread. So has the absurd notion that it's always the man's fault.
These threads are frustrating.
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But Anonymus, then what do i do? Earn it. You need to make her feel like you did when you were dating. When you initially had relations for the first time. Women want to feel like you've earned them, you're her knight in shining armor, you're the leader of her pack, you're the alpha male in her life. You're her castle. Act like it.
A man does not have to earn the rights to what has already been promised to him.
The principle here is that a wife's body belongs as much to her husband as to herself. If she denies her husband the use of her body without grave reason, she is denying him his rights. A man should not have to be the seducer of his own wife!
In this situation, it is absolutely incuмbent upon the wife to submit to the will of her husband. The notion that a man should have to earn what is already his is repugnant. That a man should still have to play to a woman's narcissistic fantasy of being a princess in need of a knight is very silly.
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"Emoting" a pious thought? Really? Let's get higher than a proposed theatric.
No. This man, the OP, has asked a valid question. We all, as husband or wife, have gone through it at one time or another. To stoop to "he's being a jerk, she's being a feminist" (the gist of some of these comments) is not proper. What does Our Lord want? That's what I'm getting at. Don't derail this with the usual Trad male-female competition. It really seems to be a Trad epidemic. No Authority to guide us (or no Authority that we listen to - Holy Mother Church, and all). Be objective and get off it. Enough of the pettiness.
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"Emoting" a pious thought? Really? Let's get higher than a proposed theatric.
Yes, emoting. You make no reference whatsoever to the obligations in justice and charity that spouses have towards one another.
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Funny how you are seletive in what I've said. That is a problem in this section. I think many members have quit this whole forum over it. Where's the rest of my words in your quote?
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Yes of course, its obvious "Anonymous" is a selfish, fat loser who doesn't know how to communicate or build a romantic relationship with a woman. He's just demanding sex. What a nutter.
If his wife habitually refuses requests for sex, then of course there is no other possibility than the man is mainly at fault, because he's a loser. And he shouldn't be asking in an Anonymous subforum about the marriage debt, definitely sinful as hell.
OP, to answer your original question, just reasons for a wife to habitually refuse the procreative act (which would oherwise be a mortal sin) are:
1. He doesn't work out at the gym.
2. He doesn't have enough self-esteem.
3. He needs to be more successful at bringing home the bacon.
4. He doesn't regularly bring her flowers.
5. He doesn't make a habit of saying "I love you."
6. He is selfish for wanting sex.
(You asked for a catechism reference. Catechism According to the Closet Feminist Traditionalist, Ch.3, Sections 1-6)
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When was the last time you told her that you love her?
:facepalm:
Maybe the attitude that caused this face palm is part of the problem.
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When was the last time you told her that you love her?
:facepalm:
Maybe the attitude that caused this face palm is part of the problem.
:facepalm:
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By the way, when was the last time you had a bath?
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The SSPX FAQ addresses this question:here (http://archives.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__morality.htm#marriagedebt)
Conjugal relations are rightly called the "marriage debt", which each spouse owes the other in justice the relations that are apt to engender children. It is this very particular right over one’s body that is given up to one’s spouse by marriage vows. Saint Paul is very explicit about this:
Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife. (I Cor. 7:3 & 4)
A debt in justice obliges under pain when a serious matter or quantity is owed. However, marriage relationships are a serious matter and of great importance. Furthermore, the refusal of the marriage debt may cause a danger of incontinence. Consequently, it is a mortal sin to deprive one’s spouse of these relationships. The typical example of this is when a wife feels that she is justified in withholding the marriage debt because her feelings are hurt, or she is not appreciated enough. However, there is no excuse for the husband to withhold the affection and care for his wife’s feelings, for is responsible for them as head of the family.
However, it is possible for the couple to agree, by mutual consent, to abstain for a short period of time, for example for penance, during Lent. However, it must be by mutual consent, and on the understanding that either spouse can withdraw it at any time. Saint Paul speaks of this also:
Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer (I Cor 7:5).
There can, however, be good reasons that excuse a husband or wife from rendering this marriage debt, such as adultery of the other spouse, or unreasonable demands (e.g. frequency, intoxication) or grave danger to health or life (e.g. by the possible communication of infectious diseases), or a husband who refuses to perform his duty of supporting his family (Jone, Moral Theology, pp. 557 & 558). There can also be special circuмstances that reduce the culpability of refusing the marriage debt, so that it is only a venial sin, for example "if the petitioner will readily renounce his right, or if rendering it is only briefly postponed, or when the use of the marriage right is frequent and its refusal is only rare" (ibid). [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]
Perhaps it will help if the OP's wife reads this and understands that her refusal could be a mortal sin.
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The SSPX FAQ addresses this question:here (http://archives.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__morality.htm#marriagedebt)
Conjugal relations are rightly called the "marriage debt", which each spouse owes the other in justice the relations that are apt to engender children. It is this very particular right over one’s body that is given up to one’s spouse by marriage vows. Saint Paul is very explicit about this:
Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife. (I Cor. 7:3 & 4)
A debt in justice obliges under pain when a serious matter or quantity is owed. However, marriage relationships are a serious matter and of great importance. Furthermore, the refusal of the marriage debt may cause a danger of incontinence. Consequently, it is a mortal sin to deprive one’s spouse of these relationships. The typical example of this is when a wife feels that she is justified in withholding the marriage debt because her feelings are hurt, or she is not appreciated enough. However, there is no excuse for the husband to withhold the affection and care for his wife’s feelings, for is responsible for them as head of the family.
However, it is possible for the couple to agree, by mutual consent, to abstain for a short period of time, for example for penance, during Lent. However, it must be by mutual consent, and on the understanding that either spouse can withdraw it at any time. Saint Paul speaks of this also:
Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer (I Cor 7:5).
There can, however, be good reasons that excuse a husband or wife from rendering this marriage debt, such as adultery of the other spouse, or unreasonable demands (e.g. frequency, intoxication) or grave danger to health or life (e.g. by the possible communication of infectious diseases), or a husband who refuses to perform his duty of supporting his family (Jone, Moral Theology, pp. 557 & 558). There can also be special circuмstances that reduce the culpability of refusing the marriage debt, so that it is only a venial sin, for example "if the petitioner will readily renounce his right, or if rendering it is only briefly postponed, or when the use of the marriage right is frequent and its refusal is only rare" (ibid). [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]
Perhaps it will help if the OP's wife reads this and understands that her refusal could be a mortal sin.
I think there is more to this than what the OP is asking.
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I think there is more to this than what the OP is asking.
Perhaps there is more to it. But it doesn't hurt to answer his question. No matter what else is going on in the relationship, people ought to have a clear understanding of Church teaching on marriage in general and on the marriage debt.
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I think there is more to this than what the OP is asking.
Perhaps there is more to it. But it doesn't hurt to answer his question. No matter what else is going on in the relationship, people ought to have a clear understanding of Church teaching on marriage in general and on the marriage debt.
I think that when the other problems are addressed in a mutually positive fashion then there wont be this problem of the wife refusing sex.
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I think there is more to this than what the OP is asking.
Perhaps there is more to it. But it doesn't hurt to answer his question. No matter what else is going on in the relationship, people ought to have a clear understanding of Church teaching on marriage in general and on the marriage debt.
I think that when the other problems are addressed in a mutually positive fashion then there wont be this problem of the wife refusing sex.
:facepalm:
Again, it's all because of "other problems" -- you need to reread the theological excerpts above.
Consequently, it is a mortal sin to deprive one’s spouse of these relationships. The typical example of this is when a wife feels that she is justified in withholding the marriage debt because her feelings are hurt, or she is not appreciated enough.
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I think there is more to this than what the OP is asking.
Perhaps there is more to it. But it doesn't hurt to answer his question. No matter what else is going on in the relationship, people ought to have a clear understanding of Church teaching on marriage in general and on the marriage debt.
I think that when the other problems are addressed in a mutually positive fashion then there wont be this problem of the wife refusing sex.
:facepalm:
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Jumping into a can of worms here...
Women are emotional. It's true. Husbands may not like this and our priests may not understand this, but you can't just say to us "You owe me my debt." This is a sure way to grow bitterness in a woman's heart. No matter how true it is that as spouses we owe each other our marriage debt, this doesn't really mean much at midnight when she has to get up at 5 to start her days work.
As married women, many of us stay at home mothers and often separated from our own mothers, we sometimes find ourselves in emotional isolation. We don't want to be gossips or cause people to look at our husbands unfavorably, but we do need our female friends. In case you are a man, you should understand something about women---we don't want you to solve our problems--we want you to LISTEN to us. We don't want lectures and theological condemnation. We want you to hear us...our concerns, our anxieties, our frustrations. For Pete's sake, we know about our marriage debt, we really do, but we want you, our husbands, to hear us.
As a former practicer of NFP, I would also caution you on something that happens to many women emotionally. And here again, I mention feelings. Women are emotional people, we have feelings. You should be glad that we do and work with us because it's our emotions and feelings that actually keep our homes warm and our children loved. When we practiced NFP, I felt like a prostitute. I felt like my husband only wanted to be with me on certain days depending on how secure or insecure he was at the time. It was very hurtful and it put a large wedge in our relationship.
Relationships are very complex. Marriages are very hard. We aren't perfect and sometimes we expect more from each other than we can give. Some women and some men are very needy. Some men and some women are very detached. Pairing these together can make for a lot of hard work in the intimacy department.
To the OP, I encourage you to really sit down with your wife and LISTEN to her. It may seem stupid to you, but this is how God made us.
I don't know what your wife is experiencing. But if you really want to solve this problem and have a meaningful relationship with your wife, then you will move beyond this idea of lecturing her on her obligations to you, and really start listening to her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
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Is there any other mortal sin where person after person says you just need to listen to someone committing a sin?
Maybe this is part of the problem. Maybe this is why so many Catholics do not understand the seriousness of denying the marriage debt.
For the record, I am a woman. Sure I have feelings and emotions. But I also care about understanding Church teaching and avoiding sin. I do not want to be "protected" from Church teaching because it could hurt my feelings. I want to know the truth.
There seems to be an idea that letting women know Church teaching on the marriage debt is the same as being demanding and insensitive. It isn't. Helping one's spouse to get to heaven is a major duty of spouses. One cannot do this while avoiding telling the truth.
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Women usually have a heightened libido during their fertile times so perhaps the "pressure" to conceive is suppressing hers.
This is ideally true but hormonal imbalances can and do very commonly throw this off. Ovulation is not always easy on everyone. It doesn't change the marital debt of course, I am just clarifying that fertile times are not necessarily times of heightened libido.
I can't go back to quote but regarding the comment that invoking the marriage debt makes women bitter... I have to disagree. There are many excuses why a woman could grow bitter but they all add up to her own will. There are no circuмstances on earth that can cause us to be bitter unless we choose to be bitter. In this case,
Maybe she's bitter because she refuses to see the nature of true love.
Maybe she's bitter because she refuses to understand her husband.
Maybe she's bitter because she won't acknowledge that the marriage debt is just as beneficial for her and for many reasons.
Maybe she's bitter because she refuses to acknowledge the Church's wisdom in establishing the marriage debt in the first place.
Honestly, the words "marriage debt" shouldn't really have to come up at all. Because by then, yes of course a wife will be turned off by a whining simpering emasculated pest. But if the concept and understanding of the marriage debt is alive and well in a marriage (hopefully well defined and driven home in Pre Cana courses), a husband won't get to that point to start with. If she's turned off by that, it's unfortunately a problem of her own making and it's a problem that she can avoid if she really wants to. (Barring all understandably exceptional circuмstances!) This is true enough on a purely natural level that even wives who are new to Church teaching should not have too much trouble understanding it.
I don't know if women are really all that complex or if we just like to think we are because it makes a "socially acceptable" scapegoat for the problems we create for ourselves.
And a lot of times I DO want someone to help solve problems. Maybe it's a temperament difference but I don't know if the idea that women just want to talk without finding solutions is true all across the board. Sometimes I do just need to vent, I won't deny that, but most times I also want to find answers if at all possible. I don't know if we do ourselves any favors by perpetuating the idea that we don't want our husbands to help us find answers, that we just want to stew in a wash of emotions with no direction. It just seems like another newly-crafted rejection of their clarity and leadership abilities.
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Women are emotional. It's true. Husbands may not like this and our priests may not understand this, but you can't just say to us "You owe me my debt." This is a sure way to grow bitterness in a woman's heart. No matter how true it is that as spouses we owe each other our marriage debt, this doesn't really mean much at midnight when she has to get up at 5 to start her days work.
What you're trying to say is that women are MORE emotional than men. Men have emotions also. But here's the newsflash. Love is not an emotion or an emotional state. Love, for human beings, involves primarily the intellect and the will ... not subject to the vicissitudes of emotions. Love is not primarily emotion. Women in particular have a difficult time with this concept. Emotions go up and down due to various physiological factors ... most notably hormones. In addition, Catholics are expected to act out of SUPERNATURAL love, aka charity.
Consequently, just because a woman doesn't FEEL like it, she is not dispensed from meeting her obligations out of love and supernatural charity. And she should be generous in doing so. If she turns "bitter" when being reminded of her obligation in justice and charity to her husband, then she is not in a good place either with God or with her husband. She completely lacks GENEROSITY in her charity and love and seeks only the self-gratification of emotion.
You see, the saints also went through this in the spiritual life. God allowed them to be deprived of the emotional gratification they received from loving Him so that they could learn to love Him more and more selflessly ... and not just because it pleased them. Thus they learned how to seek not their own personal gratification but God Himself for His sake, because it pleases HIM, rather than themselves. These are the so-called "dark nights" of the spiritual life.
So it's not about man vs. woman but about human beings, especially Catholics, vs. animals.
Nor is this kind of love "cold", but often after these saints passed through these dark nights, the love they found on the other side was incredibly ardent and like burning fire.
Otherwise, you leave "love" to the vicissitudes of your own personal gratification.
Who cares whether it's midnight or 5 AM? In fact, sometimes God calls upon us to meet our obligations even if it entails an almost heroic exertion of will.
In the case of my relationship with my wife, I am a morning person and am much more alert in the morning. She on the other hand can't wake up in the morning but is wide awake at night. But we often accommodate one another in the "opposite" time window when we don't necessarily "feel" like it. We do it out of generosity towards one another, and that's a deeper love than doing it because it pleases us. If we only do it to please ourselves, we just love ourselves and not our spouse.
And that's the entire journey of our lives. Do we seek primarily ourselves or primarily others, and God above all things.
So if this causes "bitterness", then you need to re-evaluated your relationship with God.
And this holds for all our other emotions as well. If I'm feeling grumpy or tired, this does not permit me to treat others badly as a result. Men often joke about the women who treat their family like garbage because of their PMS. Again, newsflash. These physiological and emotional states do not give you license to act this way. Your obligations of charity do not cease. Yes, the guilt might be mitigated, but the obligations remain. Even if you're not in the best of spirits, you can still TREAT people kindly and with respect ... through an exertion of your will. Yes, for a woman, that might entail an almost heroic exertion during times like that. But God calls you to that, and obliges it. Similarly, for men, sometimes they can get irritated and have temper issues (also due to hormones) ... but that too does not give them license to treat others badly. Men would are denounced as bullies if they act like this, but we're supposed to chuckle when women do the same. Do you like being treated like amusing little children who can't control themselves or do you want to be held to the same spiritually-virile standards as men? You keep trying to fool yourselves that various emotional states justify certain behaviors.
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In case you are a man, you should understand something about women---we don't want you to solve our problems--we want you to LISTEN to us. We don't want lectures and theological condemnation. We want you to hear us...our concerns, our anxieties, our frustrations. For Pete's sake, we know about our marriage debt, we really do, but we want you, our husbands, to hear us.
...
To the OP, I encourage you to really sit down with your wife and LISTEN to her. It may seem stupid to you, but this is how God made us.
So will this "listening" suddenly have the wife comply with her obligations in charity towards her husband and towards God? Most men recognize that women want men to listen to them. But this listening does not preclude being informed of your obligations.
That's like saying, "I'm committing adultery. Instead of theologizing against me, you should just listen."
Is there any other mortal sin where person after person says you just need to listen to someone committing a sin?
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With that said, husbands should (and must) show affection towards their wives, should listen to them, etc. -- EVEN WHEN THEY DON'T FEEL LIKE IT. This cuts both ways. St. Paul (aka the Holy Spirit through him): "Husbands, love your wives."
And nothing engenders affection (and true love) in someone more than self-sacrifice. When I see my wife sacrificing something she wants (whether it's rest or self-gratification) for my sake, it almost forces the affection out of me. I can't even help it. Try it some time. Only the coldest of male hearts will not respond to true generosity of this kind. On the other hand, when women act like selfish little gratification-seeking babies, who need to be constantly coddled and patronized, constantly seeking attention, then men tend to withhold precisely what these women are seeking ... their love an affection.
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Have you been unfaithful to her?
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There is no reason to assume that a husband has done anything wrong to cause this problem. We live in a culture that teaches women that we should engage in the marital act when we are "in the mood" and that a husband has no right to expect it. It is very common for women to believe that it is a favour that the husband has to earn.
Even traditional Catholics can be affected by our surrounding culture, especially by an idea as wide-spread as this one. I suspect that this is the most common reason for this sort of problem. The first step in dealing with it is making sure that the husband and wife understand Church teaching about marriage.
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There is no reason to assume that a husband has done anything wrong to cause this problem.
Could the husband have done things that contributed to the problem? Of course. Short of grave abuses against the wife that would justify withholding the debt (as in the article from Father Scott), does this justify the wife's behavior? Certainly not. Could it be that the husband has done nothing wrong and that the fault lies mostly with the wife? Of course. We do not know any of the circuмstances. That's why the husband needs to speak with the wife and ask HER what's going on. Everything else is based on hypotheticals.
But, yes, a number of the women who chimed in here on this thread were operating on the assumption that the husband was in the wrong somehow and were thereby at least implicitly condoning the wife's behavior.
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I am not OP btw.
Good luck trying to get out of a woman the reason for anything.
I've tried having these "conversations" with my wife, all it ends up being it a huge blame fest on her part about everything I do or do not do perfectly according to her. Communication is important, but for problems such as these, communication is pretty much useless IMO. Asking her "why won't you have sex with me" will just be a bitchy litany of her blaming you for everything. Anytime you try to point out something she is doing wrong, she will blame you for it or deny she is doing it at all. Communication about sex does not work. I repeat. Does not work.
I stopped having these conversations once she said "You didn't lock the door when you left for work this morning" and another "You forgot to take out the trash"
Really? I mean... wow.
I realized then that most women are incapable of having a rational discussion without blaming their husbands for all their problems.
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I am not OP btw.
Good luck trying to get out of a woman the reason for anything.
I've tried having these "conversations" with my wife, all it ends up being it a huge blame fest on her part about everything I do or do not do perfectly according to her. Communication is important, but for problems such as these, communication is pretty much useless IMO. Asking her "why won't you have sex with me" will just be a bitchy litany of her blaming you for everything. Anytime you try to point out something she is doing wrong, she will blame you for it or deny she is doing it at all. Communication about sex does not work. I repeat. Does not work.
I stopped having these conversations once she said "You didn't lock the door when you left for work this morning" and another "You forgot to take out the trash"
Really? I mean... wow.
I realized then that most women are incapable of having a rational discussion without blaming their husbands for all their problems.
I agree with everything you said, except that it is the other way around. Honest and direct communication with men just do not work and often times, have quite the opposite effect to the original intention. As a wife, I have learned to hold my tongue (which basically means to NOT be honest about my feelings or thoughts everytime), choose my battles very carefully, and avoid unpleasant irritations as much as possible. Sure, there is a way in which one may "communicate" with men; but it requires previous, methodical learning, and careful planning beforehand. Just being open and speak your mind as you would with your best friend do not work and it is a recipe for disaster. That is millennial female wisdom.
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Sure, there is a way in which one may "communicate" with men; but it requires previous, methodical learning, and careful planning beforehand. Just being open and speak your mind as you would with your best friend do not work and it is a recipe for disaster.
Both this observation and the one from the previous poster all depend on the person involved. I am a man and want to know the truth and crave more than my wife does to speak our minds to one another as we would with a best friend. I have used exactly that expression. I told her that, more than anything else, I want to be best friends with her. I have tried pouring everything out to her, and it just ends up being a monologue. She barely says 2 words in response. And it's all I can do to pry anything out of her about how she's feeling, what she's thinking, etc. I told her that she could even tell me that she can't stand the sight of me and I would still love her just the same and would be moved that she would feel comfortable enough with me to share the thought. But she doesn't want to open up.
So ...
the point is that you are generalizing about men and women, and so was the previous poster. It depends on the PERSON and not the gender. Genders may create certain tendencies in one direction or the other, but that's about it.
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I am a man and want to know the truth and crave more than my wife does to speak our minds to one another as we would with a best friend. I have used exactly that expression. I told her that, more than anything else, I want to be best friends with her.
Just food for thought, but maybe that's part of the problem. I don't know what can be done about it once a person has it drilled into them that husbands and wives are supposed to be best friends, but I plan on wording it differently for my children when they are of age.
My husband used to say it and I ended up asking him not to. (That was an awkward conversation at first!) We are not best friends, we are husband and wife. Those words ought to carry their own strength and meaning. I know what couples mean by saying they are best friends and they mean well; yes you should be able to share everything or almost everything with your spouse, but sometimes I think "best friends" cheapens the meaning of husband and wife. Or maybe "cheapens" isn't the right word, because good friends are such a gift from God, but it is a different kind of love and when we refer to husband and wife as best friends, it changes the dynamic. There is a different feel about it that never sat right with me.
I find being a wife very different from being a best friend and what I need from my husband is different from what I need from my friends. "Best friends" also eliminates any understanding of authority in the relationship. It's almost the spousal version of parents trying to be best friends with their children. It just doesn't work that way. Husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, children, friends -- God made all of these dynamics to be different. We practice the same virtues in all but in different ways. I think that's what gives us a more complete experience and understanding.
I don't know if that helps at all but I offer it anyway just in case.
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I don't know if that helps at all but I offer it anyway just in case.
Thank you. I guess I was talking more about being able to speak about anything ... as if you would to a friend. Yes, of course, being husband and wife involves much more than that, but, to me, if that element isn't there (the best language I can find for which is "friendship"), then it's hard for the rest to be there. In other words, I would never REDUCE the husband-wife relationship to one of friendship alone, but that friendship has to be there too, as a base. You know, the kind of relationship where you can reveal anything without being looked down judgmentally ... the same way that one might talk to God.
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You got it wrong. You're too worried about sharing your intimate feels and emotions. Don't do that, at least very little. You have to be careful with this or it will become a normal thing. Your wife does not care. Do that with God.
One thing I've figured out about women in my 32 years of life is that they don't really want to be your friend. They want to be submissive to you, but they test you, your ability to lead and be a rock, constantly, and without they themselves knowing their doing it.
If you want a woman to do what you want her to do, stop pouring out your feelings to her, to women that is a sign of weakness, and I don't care what the women on this thread say about it, it is true. They don't care about your problems or how you feel. They care about your actions.
Acta Non Verba.
Wife acting like she doesn't want to have sex? Ok.
Light candles. Take a shower. Shave. Put on your smell goods. Hit her by surprise. Don't freaking talk to her about it. Just do it. Be unpredictable. Be attractive, don't be unattractive.
It took me a long time to figure this out in the context of marriage. Back when I was in my less Catholic years I had no problems picking up girls to date. I probably dated over 40 women. One thing is consistent with all women and it is this: They don't care what you think (except for how they look), they care what you do and how you do it, they also want you to listen to them, but not say anything, or say very little, just listen.
Acta Non Verba. Be attractive, don't be unattractive. Be charming, be a leader. Then your wife will respond.
If you act like an effeminate little whiney excuse for a man, she is going to totally withdraw her affection and her wanting to look attractive to you because in her eyes you are no longer a leader or an alpha male.
Never complain in front of a woman. Nothing more effeminate than a man who complains, especially about not getting sex. If she denies you, just say "Ok" and then make a cute jab at her and leave and do your own thing. Do not pester her, do not keep talking about it. Shut up and walk away. Learn to shut up, it helps. Don't throw a fit or keep hounding her. Then she'll be totally confused because you didn't freak out and she'll, most of the time, try to come find you and "talk", which is then the que to literally just shut up and take action.
It is a weird dynamic sometimes, but trust me this works.
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Great post, Mr 32yo! Your wife is blessed!
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You got it wrong. You're too worried about sharing your intimate feels and emotions. Don't do that, at least very little. You have to be careful with this or it will become a normal thing. Your wife does not care.
Ridiculous. You have an incredibly worldly perspective on things. Your less Catholic promiscuous years still show in your attitudes. You'll see in the lives of the greatest Catholic saintly couples that they had deep spiritual relationships ... with physical relationships being secondary or even non-existent. You need only look to St. Joseph & Our Lady, or Sts. Joachim & Ann, and the parents of St. Therese. We are married in order to help one another get to heaven, not in order to play "alpha male". That's an incredibly secular and juvenile attitude. This doesn't mean that a man shouldn't be strong, but the relationship between husband and wife runs much deeper that strength vs. submission. You speak like some kind of MTV-watching teenager.
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They don't care about your problems or how you feel. They care about your actions.
I know you don't care what I or other women might say about this, but I'm not really posting it to argue with you, but rather to let he OP know that this is not the case for at least some women. Women do have a keen ability to look beyond themselves if they want to, and if they are striving to be a good, holy wife.
I don't pretend to hold myself higher than most women, but for me that quoted statement is absolutely false. It's a gross overgeneralization.
Perhaps your comment rubbed me the wrong way because my husband and I recently have proven the opposite through some heavy struggles- not interpersonally, but with this world, largely finances. I am very happy that our marriage is not like the one your comment implies. Being under big financial stress is hard both on the husband and wife for a variety of different reasons. I know he's under a lot of stress to provide enough income for me to stay home with the children, and most days it looks like it's not going to be a possibility. I absolutely care how this makes him feel. I hate seeing anyone struggling, especially my husband or children. If there is something I can do to help them with their problems, I don't hesitate. We've both at times been a bit withdrawn with each other the past few months, trying to sort out our own problems, and it wasn't working for either of us. I didn't want to bother him with my feelings, and he didn't want to bother me with his, because we cared about the other more than we cared for ourselves. The silly thing is, neither of us see it as a bother, but a relief to know what the other is feeling. We both felt so relieved when we finally had a come to on that realization. The others thoughts, their struggles, their discouragements... it matters to us. And it should matter. Perhaps it's not a bother because each of us knows the other one is always seeking the good, and if they don't happen to be in that moment, that they will come around to it, because they love God, and they want to live justly. We have that confidence in each other.
It doesn't have to be the way you describe.
I agreed with you on many of the other things you said, and found your intuition to be very keen. But you're wrong about this specific one, at least part of time. :)
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I don't pretend to hold myself higher than most women, but for me that quoted statement is absolutely false. It's a gross overgeneralization.
Most serious Catholic wives find this to be "absolutely false" as well.
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The others thoughts, their struggles, their discouragements... it matters to us. And it should matter.
Yes, I am the husband and I have struggled also trying to provide enough income for my wife and my children so that my wife could stay home. And it's very hard on a man to feel like a failure in that area, providing for one's family, when sometimes we're really struggling and counting our pennies.
If you love someone, then you CARE about and WANT TO KNOW about what's hurting them and causing them pain, and what brings them joy and consolation.
I don't know what this guy is describing, but it's certainly not love.
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If you want a woman to do what you want her to do, stop pouring out your feelings to her, to women that is a sign of weakness, and I don't care what the women on this thread say about it, it is true.
What, are you about 16 years old?
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I agree with jen, I don't think it's fair to say women don't care. Women who love their husbands care deeply. But if you're trying to say that many women are drawn to the strong silent type, then yes there is something to that. There's a reason why that has become a popular type. But not all men have that temperament so each has to work with what he has and bring out the best of what he has. Trying to be something he isn't will not yield any better results.
If we're all imperfect and we don't always strike the perfect balance between words and action, I agree that action without words is much better than words without action. But they have to be the right actions. Putting on a macho façade is still quite self-centered and can be rather superficial. Self-sacrifice is really the only action that speaks volumes, both for men and for women.
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Ridiculous. You have an incredibly worldly perspective on things. Your less Catholic promiscuous years still show in your attitudes. You'll see in the lives of the greatest Catholic saintly couples that they had deep spiritual relationships ... with physical relationships being secondary or even non-existent. You need only look to St. Joseph & Our Lady, or Sts. Joachim & Ann, and the parents of St. Therese. We are married in order to help one another get to heaven, not in order to play "alpha male". That's an incredibly secular and juvenile attitude. This doesn't mean that a man shouldn't be strong, but the relationship between husband and wife runs much deeper that strength vs. submission. You speak like some kind of MTV-watching teenager.
You're free to have that opinion. I never said you shouldn't have a holy relationship.
Being a leader and acting instead of puking out your emotions to your wife all the time is juvenile? Ok buddy. I never said anything about there not being a deep relationship, but you have to get there first, and you don't do it by being a push-over.
I never said don't communicate. I was emphasizing the approach to that communication.
It is pretty easy at my parish to see which wives wear the pants.
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The others thoughts, their struggles, their discouragements... it matters to us. And it should matter.
Yes, I am the husband and I have struggled also trying to provide enough income for my wife and my children so that my wife could stay home. And it's very hard on a man to feel like a failure in that area, providing for one's family, when sometimes we're really struggling and counting our pennies.
If you love someone, then you CARE about and WANT TO KNOW about what's hurting them and causing them pain, and what brings them joy and consolation.
I don't know what this guy is describing, but it's certainly not love.
Love is sacrificing yourself for the good of another.
It is love to be a leader and head of the household and to act according to your station in life. Not letting your wife steam roll you is actually an act of love towards her. It is love to sacrifice your own self-interest of laziness and bad hygiene to make yourself presentable to your spouse, yes even as a male.
There is nothing contrary to the faith or to the dynamic of Marriage that was said.
The main premise of this entire thread is "Why doesn't my wife want to have sex with me?"
A. You don't make enough money to support another child, so she's scared.
B. You are not being a leader (this includes spiritual leadership)
C. You are unattractive.
As Bishop Williamson would say "That's reality!"
It is love that she denies you sex? No. It's selfish. But what are you doing to fix it? Obviously talking about it has gotten you nowhere.
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In marriage the wife and the husband get to enjoy having sex with each other. As you people probably know, sex can be pretty nice. The thing is though, the spouses have a duty to have sex with each other (every reasonable request). This is DOGMA. I like to call it the sex dogma. At least, it's an important teaching even if it's not a real dogma. Anyway, it's important to make lots of money because when you have sex your wife might get prego. And as we all know, children can be expensive. So you need to have a good job to support your wife and children, and be a good husband. This is also why a man shouldn't get married unless he can reasonably be expected to support his wife and family. If he doesn't have a good job, even though he might love his wife and like having sex with her, he won't be a good husband. So I think it's important. I think you guys would agree.
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A. You don't make enough money to support another child, so she's scared.
B. You are not being a leader (this includes spiritual leadership)
C. You are unattractive.
As Bishop Williamson would say "That's reality!"
The actual reality is that none of those are good enough reasons for her to deny him.
A. Trust Providence
B. Too bad for her but it's a chance for her to overcome herself and help him. No one is perfect and turning a bad leader into a sex-starved bad leader is a terrible solution.
C. Again too bad, she married him. Attraction ebbs and flows even in good relationships, and she has a chance to put her will to good use. Besides, denying him and creating a toxic relationship is not going to help, but making the effort for him will. Her love and attraction has much more chance if she chooses to give it a chance.
I think a lot of our problems with understanding this stem from Hollywood's pretense that everything will be perfect every time. It seems that very few are warned that a healthy and happy sex life is something that needs to be worked at. And not just by buying silly books or doing the superficial things the world suggests. See how little that helps them in the long run. When we self-sacrifice for another person it doesn't just help them, it changes us too; it fills us with grace and expands our love for that person. It's true even in this.
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Being a leader and acting instead of puking out your emotions to your wife all the time is juvenile? Ok buddy. I never said anything about there not being a deep relationship, but you have to get there first, and you don't do it by being a push-over.
I never said don't communicate. I was emphasizing the approach to that communication.
It is pretty easy at my parish to see which wives wear the pants.
You write and think like an immature teenager.
Nobody was talking about "puking out emotions". I was talking about communication so that the two people know one another deeply. You are the one who asserted that wives "don't care" what you think or don't care to get to know you ... which a number of wives chimed in on and rejected. Your post reduced the relationship between husband and wife to sharing the same living space and having sex every once in a while. But maybe you're just incapable of articulating yourself properly.
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It is love to be a leader and head of the household and to act according to your station in life. Not letting your wife steam roll you is actually an act of love towards her.
It can be, and then again it can't. If your motive is genuinely to exert your authority for her good or the good of the children, then yes. If your motive is to "lord it over" them (as St. Paul characterized it) in the interests of serving your own ego, then no. And both the women and children can immediately detect whether your exertion of "manhood" is out of charity and humility and service to them or it's an attempt to inflate your own ego and feel like a man.
And in my experience, the men who are MOST vocal about exerting their "machismo" and playing "alpha male" are typically the most insecure. They need to act over the top about it because they don't have the true inner strength and confidence just to project that from within. And this entire "alpha male" image is a flawed image created by secular society ... contrary to Our Lord's teaching. Who is the strong one, the person who can not be rattled by an offense or injustice or insult, turning the other cheek, as Our Lord indicated, or the one who flies into a rathful vengeance?
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The actual reality is that none of those are good enough reasons for her to deny him.
A. Trust Providence
B. Too bad for her but it's a chance for her to overcome herself and help him. No one is perfect and turning a bad leader into a sex-starved bad leader is a terrible solution.
C. Again too bad, she married him. Attraction ebbs and flows even in good relationships, and she has a chance to put her will to good use. Besides, denying him and creating a toxic relationship is not going to help, but making the effort for him will. Her love and attraction has much more chance if she chooses to give it a chance.
I think a lot of our problems with understanding this stem from Hollywood's pretense that everything will be perfect every time. It seems that very few are warned that a healthy and happy sex life is something that needs to be worked at. And not just by buying silly books or doing the superficial things the world suggests. See how little that helps them in the long run. When we self-sacrifice for another person it doesn't just help them, it changes us too; it fills us with grace and expands our love for that person. It's true even in this.
I never said they were good reasons, but they are reasons of most wives, whether they think it or subconsciously think it.
Not everything in the world is evil. There is nothing evil about being attractive and being a leader and having enough money to support your family. Saying otherwise is simply not a Catholic perspective on the matter.
You are implying that the things I said don't matter, but they do. Praying is important, but you can't force someone to do the will of God.
Sometimes you have to try natural means as well, this can stem from grace.
If you are doing everything you can to attract your wife then ok, but it is not JUST a spiritual issue. Sex is a natural act.
If you wife looked like a hag all the time, was over-weight, tried to run the house, and did not due her duties do you think the husband would want to have sex with her? I doubt it.
You can talk about the spiritual issues, and I agree, there are spiritual issues. But the reality is we have original sin and are attracted to beautiful things. If one spouse is not keeping up their end of the bargain on the natural level, then you can't just say "pray it away" because that's essentially what you're doing. You can pray for someone to take a shower and shave, but that doesn't mean they will.
You should definitely be praying, but you should also be looking at what to do on the natural level.
This entire thread has turned into a big joke. None of you have offered solutions to the problem except telling him to pray.
Reminds me of the story of the guy who prayed to God to save him from a sinking ship and a lifeboat and helicopter come and he still says "No thanks, God will save me". You people are acting like the natural world we live in doesn't exist and that God doesn't use it.
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Being a leader and acting instead of puking out your emotions to your wife all the time is juvenile? Ok buddy. I never said anything about there not being a deep relationship, but you have to get there first, and you don't do it by being a push-over.
I never said don't communicate. I was emphasizing the approach to that communication.
It is pretty easy at my parish to see which wives wear the pants.
You write and think like an immature teenager.
Nobody was talking about "puking out emotions". I was talking about communication so that the two people know one another deeply. You are the one who asserted that wives "don't care" what you think or don't care to get to know you ... which a number of wives chimed in on and rejected. Your post reduced the relationship between husband and wife to sharing the same living space and having sex every once in a while. But maybe you're just incapable of articulating yourself properly.
I was talking about in the context of discussing the issues of sex with your wife and not complaining and having 3 hour discussions with your wife on why she doesn't want to have sex with you, wherein it turns into a blame fest and you end up even more pissed than before. Maybe it wasn't clear enough for some people to understand, such as yourself.
The reason I say that is because I went through the same thing as OP. It wasn't until I stopped with the Catholic guilt about it being a mortal sin for her to deny me that things got better. If you ask a women why doesn't want to have sex with you, you are never going to get the real answer. Having those conversations are pointless.
I never said don't communicate with your wife and have a deep relationship. You people sure assume a lot.
I never said wives don't want to get to know you as a person, deeply (whatever that means), I said they don't want to be your friend, even if they say they do. My wife is not my friend, she is my wife, it is much more intimate than a friendship.
I am willing to bet half the wives on this forum only have sex with their husbands once a week, if that.
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This is an anonymous forum but I want to announce that this is Fabricius Brennus posting this dose of reality for, what appears to be a bunch of younger Catholics.
One of the reasons I don't post here so much is I can't stand the Catholic crypto feminists. However, this controversy, which comes up from time to time in forums, is one of the most ridiculous, time wasting arguments I know and seeing it unfold here again . . . I just can't hold my peace.
It is a mortal sin for the spouse to deny the marriage debt. There are exceptions, but “feelings” are not one of them. The women who are arguing in favor of the wife withholding because she doesn't feel her husband listens to her enough, should look at the nine ways we can be an accessory to another's sin because they are, in fact doing that, by counsel, and by approving of the ill done. Ye might want to confess it.
I will quickly add that sometimes it is the man who commits this sin and I know three marriages right off the top of my head that were ruined by the man not lying with his wife as is his duty. However, this thread seems to be driven by the woman's denial more so than the man.
In that regard, I would say to the husband that perhaps he needs to stop begging and just grab the woman and carry her into the bedroom (he had better be able to pick his wife up and carry her – maybe that is the trouble) and close the door and get started. Do not doubt for a minute that women prefer men to initiate. It is very possible that a younger wife who is pulling this crap is challenging her husband. Each time he just goes along with it and begs for sex he is looking more and more like a wuss and she can't possibly find him attractive.
ON A SIDE NOTE: I warn you, if a man keeps that up, that same wife who is refusing him sex is very likely going to cheat on him with some other guy who isn't afraid to go after what he wants. Now, I think that is a lot less likely with a traditional Catholic woman who is a stay-at-home mother with children, but if such a woman is denying her husband . . . . . well, that's not much of a traditional Catholic woman anyway so who knows.
Now back to the main topic, if she absolutely resists and says no, then ignore her. Oh, what? You say that she says that is the problem in the first place. I call bullshit on that. A husband does not really ignore his wife. Men LOVE their wives and DO listen to what they are saying, just like they listen to their children. A lot of these woman who think they are being ignored don't know what being ignored is, so, as a plan B, I would suggest showing her that. Do not talk to her at all. Cut her off totally. Don't sleep in the same bed with her. If a separation is possible, maybe even do that, but talk to a priest first. If you can't afford to live apart, then just do the best you can in the house.
While most of my advice here is secular in nature, and a bit cruel, this part enters the realm of devotion. Forget about sex for a while. Take up reading The Little Office every day and study some classic Catholic writings (You'll have time because you are not going to be wasting any of it trying to spoil her into sleeping with you.) While doing this, put yourself on a mission of self improvement. Put more effort into your job, or career or something. Become a better man. Maybe in six months, give her another shot at things. Remember, YOU ARE THE INJURED PARTY HERE, SIR!!!! Don't let any of these witches fool you into thinking otherwise.
Lastly, bring up the possibility of annulment. Now, before any of the little witches on here get their rumps up the air, I will say I am not in favor of annulmentism. This is the nuclear option and I suggest it only because it serves a purpose. Point out to the that perhaps she did not enter the marriage with the right intent and that maybe you could seek a civil divorce and seek an annulment. You might not truly be attempting to do that however a wife such as we are considering is USING the strict sacramental nature of marriage to torture her husband for some psychopathic feministic power trippery so why not pull that rug out from under her and make it clear that she “can be replaced.”
If you are able, it might not even hurt to have a few woman friends – don't commit adultery or ever put yourself in dangerous situations, – but the ugly truth is that a woman finds men attractive whom other women find attractive. There is also the “dread” factor again, where she might get the message that “she can be replaced.”
That's the best advice I can give you. But I have two more things on this topic, and then I probably won't post again for a while.
INITIATION: I noticed the question raised about who should initiate sex and an asinine attempt to solve by abstracting from some moral dogma writing. I think t his varies a bit. Women in general seem to prefer the man to initiate. In good marriages, I think the man usually will seek the marriage debt by initiating sex and his wife will be happy with that BUT occasionally – like every now and then, she will do so. Some women perhaps more often while others never. If you are a man who married a woman who never wants to initiate, just accept that. It isn't so bad.
AN OBSERVATION: We are always told that the sex problems in marriage can't be fixed until the communication problems are, or some other issue is. That is bullshit. IF THE SEX PROBLEMS ARE NOT FIXED NOTHING ELSE CAN BE FIXED. The sex problem will ALWAYS come up when trying to solve the other problems and become mixed in with everything. However (now listen up ye young couples, this is good information from an older man in a happy marriage) if you fix the sex problems it will make it possible to solve the other problems. I promise you this is the truth.
So in short, knock off the crap and have marital intercourse. In other words, grow the Hell up.
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The above post is mostly correct, but:
If you are able, it might not even hurt to have a few woman friends – don't commit adultery or ever put yourself in dangerous situations, – but the ugly truth is that a woman finds men attractive whom other women find attractive. There is also the “dread” factor again, where she might get the message that “she can be replaced.”
This is worldly advice. Marriage is supposed to be an honest relationship, an institution with very clear duties. To have to go to such depths to trick your wife into giving you what she already owes you in the marriage contract is extremely demeaning, not to mention vicious and irreligious. It is repulsive that a husband should have to be the seducer of his own wife; that he should have to convince her in the same way a fornicator would seduce. What you said about taking the initiative and demanding sex rather than asking for it is correct. If your wife refuses sex then she is ipso facto refusing to be your wife; she is effectively divorcing you. But don't force sex with violence. If she refuses then do what this man says and consider her cut off from you and look into an annulment, or at least cut yourself off from her for awhile and don't let her return until she is penitent. She is committing an act of gross injustice against you. In an earlier age, such a wife would probably have had her hair cut off and shamed for disobedience. This is a case where it's a shame for a pagan wife to do this, but for a Christian wife to do this to her husband is really wicked. St. Paul didn't speak vainly when he said that wives should look up to their husbands like their husbands should look up to God. A woman that has no regard for her husband is a godless woman. A woman that does not care to please her husband is no better than a child that has no respect for its parents. What she is doing is tantamount to rebellion approaching adultery. She is not that much better than an adulteress.
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This sub-section, along with any forum in general, is really counter-productive in giving advice. Really. It's a bombardment of opinions with a sprinkle of (cherry-picked) fact.
OP, you need to pray to find your way. I have, along with many others (who have not consulted a anonymous forum). You shouldn't look here for any sort of concrete advice. What have you received so far? How many pages of opinion? Really.
Pray. In this day and age, especially on a forum, you cannot rely on anything. Be patient. God will provide you an answer.
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To have to go to such depths to trick your wife into giving you what she already owes you in the marriage contract is extremely demeaning, not to mention vicious and irreligious. It is repulsive that a husband should have to be the seducer of his own wife; that he should have to convince her in the same way a fornicator would seduce.
These are the best two sentences I've ever heard on this subject. Ever. :applause:
Thumbs up to that post.
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Ha. You're clapping. Did you make that quote and then compliment it? Who's to know?
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If you are able, it might not even hurt to have a few woman friends – don't commit adultery or ever put yourself in dangerous situations, – but the ugly truth is that a woman finds men attractive whom other women find attractive. There is also the “dread” factor again, where she might get the message that “she can be replaced.”
This is worldly advice. Marriage is supposed to be an honest relationship, an institution with very clear duties. To have to go to such depths to trick your wife into giving you what she already owes you in the marriage contract is extremely demeaning, not to mention vicious and irreligious. It is repulsive that a husband should have to be the seducer of his own wife; that he should have to convince her in the same way a fornicator would seduce. What you said about taking the initiative and demanding sex rather than asking for it is correct. If your wife refuses sex then she is ipso facto refusing to be your wife; she is effectively divorcing you. But don't force sex with violence. If she refuses then do what this man says and consider her cut off from you and look into an annulment, or at least cut yourself off from her for awhile and don't let her return until she is penitent. She is committing an act of gross injustice against you. In an earlier age, such a wife would probably have had her hair cut off and shamed for disobedience. This is a case where it's a shame for a pagan wife to do this, but for a Christian wife to do this to her husband is really wicked. St. Paul didn't speak vainly when he said that wives should look up to their husbands like their husbands should look up to God. A woman that has no regard for her husband is a godless woman. A woman that does not care to please her husband is no better than a child that has no respect for its parents. What she is doing is tantamount to rebellion approaching adultery. She is not that much better than an adulteress.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
Actually, I am the one who stumbled upon this thread and applauded this advice. It's spot on.
Using PickUpArtistry (PUA)/Game Theory to seduce your wife is a sign of a bad state of affairs in the home.
It so happens that I was reading the other blog that Vox Day keeps, AlphaGame. (I'm on the cusp of calling out VD's anti-Catholicisim, probably within the next month.) Coinidentally, he was discussing this very phenomenon--that is, withholding the marriage debt:
http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2016/12/when-solipsism-resembles-sociopathy.html
He recommends that the man leave the wife. He recommends this, of course, because he is not a Catholic and doesn't understand Christianity that predates Luther. Divorce, simply, is not an option for Catholics. And if you have children in this situation, then God help you.
But what really struck me on this Alphagame thread was the following comment. There are some cuss words from this guy, so I changed them to the new bolded words for those people who cannot stand cuss words:
The flip side is, women require game & [sɛҳuąƖ market value] smv to be turned on, because they have no ability to pair bond.
In the past only prostitutes required game & [pick up artist] pua tactics, as they were broken deranged women. Women didn't require game or pua, as they had fully functioning pair bonding biology.
Normal women with fully functional pair bonding form deep bonds with men, easily without the need to imitate a jacked up alpha or thug.
Today's petty women are deranged monstrosities, with more fornication/adultery with men & burnt out lifestyles then any coke whore.
Only broken crackwhores require insane amounts of game, the rare normal woman is easily satisfied with the biology of a man to keep her in check.
In short, women who arent deranged crack whores, require virtually no game or pua, only prostitutes require pimps to keep them in line.
Red pill, game & pua are pimp techniques designed to control prostitutes & deranged crack whores.
Normal women no longer exist, this is the reality today, womens feral thirst for alphas & bad boys is really her wanting a pimp to control her, as she's too feral to bond with normal men.
Women today are too feral & deranged, hence the need to behave like a pimp using game & pua.
Women have become feral, as that man said. Typically, men like the Original Poster of this thread have been told to cook, clean, listen, have conversation, romance the woman, and make all of the moves required to put the woman in that special state of mind--in order to have her perform her obligation for her spouse. Responsibilities of the woman? None.
After reading this thread tonight and seeing this similar blog post over at AlphaGame, it strikes me that when a woman withholds sex from her husband, she is essentially doing the very same thing that Eve did to Adam. She is tempting him.
It may not seem similar at first. Eve tempted Adam to eat the Fruit of Knowledge. But think about it a little deeper, and we can see that she was tempting him to capitulate to her new standard. Adam was tempted to do things her way, for her benefit. He was tempted away from the right path, and he was tempted into giving into a sinful act.
This is what women do when they withhold sex from their husbands. By deliberately withholding sex from their men for whatever whim, they tempt their husbands to cheat, masturbate, divorce, or what have you. Women who do this are no different from Eve in this regard.
I suppose the solution is for the man to do what Adam should have done. Adam should have put Eve in her place, ignoring her temptation. This is a difficult and heroic act of virtue in this over-sexed pagan world. But if Adam had rejected Eve's temptation, he would have remained righteous in God's eyes.
And with that in mind, I wonder what God would have done if Adam remained sinless but Eve had been the only one to fall. Would Adam have felt a sense of justice in witnessing Eve's punishment? I honestly cannot say.
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So the solution is what exactly?
Pretend your wife isn't committing a grave sin against you and just "deal with it?"
What does putting her in her place entail?
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So the solution is what exactly?
Pretend your wife isn't committing a grave sin against you and just "deal with it?"
What does putting her in her place entail?
This is the problem. A man does not have any official power or authority to do this anymore. He cannot threaten her with the law, because the law has abandoned marriage. He cannot threaten her with violence, because that is against the law. A priest ought to rebuke her and cut her off from communion until she repents, but is your priest willing? All this failing, all that the husband can do is to inform the wife of his rights and the injustice of her actions, pray for her, and hope she repents. It may be an emasculating position for a man to be in, but unfortunately that's all this corrupt society has left him with. If she will not here her husband's rebuke, and if there is nobody else (priest, family, friend) to rebuke her, then prayer is the one and only option. But pray regardless.
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What does putting her in her place entail?
I suppose step one would be to not pretend there's no problem. To not let her neglect go unanswered for months and years on end.
Let us imagine the Adam and Eve scenario again. Let's imagine that Eve falls to the serpent, but not Adam.
What's next, then? Can you imagine Adam pretending that Eve did nothing wrong at all? Adam just shrugs his shoulders and moves on with his life with her as if there was never a problem?
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(http://cdn-users2.imagechef.com/sketchpadmeme/161204/memefd360a1202d33f43.jpg)
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It may be an emasculating position for a man to be in
Fighting temptations to preserve chastity in such a situation is not emasculating. Look at St. Joseph, who voluntarily respected his wife's vow of virginity, even though he could have lawfully demanded that she render him the marriage debt. No one forced him to do this; if he or his wife had not voluntarily consented to this, they would've entered an invalid marriage.
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If the wife isn't having sex with her husband, maybe she is having sex with someone else.
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At least, it's an important teaching even if it's not a real dogma. Anyway, it's important to make lots of money because when you have sex your wife might get prego. And as we all know, children can be expensive.
Are you a troll?
Actually, children aren't nearly as expensive as Hollywood and the Media would have you believe. It depends on what kind of lifestyle you're after. Each kid having his own bedroom with personal computer/TV/TV show playback device, cell phone, 1 or 2 professional lessons for each child, a free ticket to college, birth control once they hit age 12, etc. then YES, you will spend a total of $245,000 raising EACH child to age 18.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/18/cost-of-raising-a-child_n_5688179.html
But Catholics can "pass" on most of those things.
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If the wife isn't having sex with her husband, maybe she is having sex with someone else.
Quite possible OR if her husband continues to cower and capitulate and crawl away whenever she says "NO" and doesn't push back, . . . . . she will likely soon be having sex with someone else who is "pushy."
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Where we live,there are people with large families that don't have much but their children are happy and cared for. The children are polite and mature too.
Many people in our area who have money neglect their children.
The children often have to raise themselves.
Children raised with parents receiving welfare are often spoiled brats. Especially, illegals and pseudo refugees.
Mathew is right. Children don't need tvs in every room and cell phones.
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At least, it's an important teaching even if it's not a real dogma. Anyway, it's important to make lots of money because when you have sex your wife might get prego. And as we all know, children can be expensive.
Are you a troll?
Actually, children aren't nearly as expensive as Hollywood and the Media would have you believe. It depends on what kind of lifestyle you're after. Each kid having his own bedroom with personal computer/TV/TV show playback device, cell phone, 1 or 2 professional lessons for each child, a free ticket to college, birth control once they hit age 12, etc. then YES, you will spend a total of $245,000 raising EACH child to age 18.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/18/cost-of-raising-a-child_n_5688179.html
But Catholics can "pass" on most of those things.
Yes, it was a joke post if you read it
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So the solution is what exactly?
Pretend your wife isn't committing a grave sin against you and just "deal with it?"
What does putting her in her place entail?
This is the problem. A man does not have any official power or authority to do this anymore. He cannot threaten her with the law, because the law has abandoned marriage. He cannot threaten her with violence, because that is against the law. A priest ought to rebuke her and cut her off from communion until she repents, but is your priest willing? All this failing, all that the husband can do is to inform the wife of his rights and the injustice of her actions, pray for her, and hope she repents. It may be an emasculating position for a man to be in, but unfortunately that's all this corrupt society has left him with. If she will not here her husband's rebuke, and if there is nobody else (priest, family, friend) to rebuke her, then prayer is the one and only option. But pray regardless.
men who threaten their wives are not real men
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frankly, i dont get what is so great about sex
it is just a physical act.. yeh, sure, it bonds 2 people together but it looks to me like maybe people ought to be a little more bonded OUTSIDE the bedroom... b4 they go into the bedroom..
People are so untrustworthy in general, i tend to think they should not ever marry.. unless they meet someone -- well, someone GOD wants him/her to marry.
And i doubt God approves of most of the marriages taking place
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UPDATE:
Hello all, I started this thread. 8,000+ views. Had no idea the attention it would get, my OP was to ask for church references on reasons a wife can refuse the marriage debt (or vice versa).
So I'm still in the same situation. I keep trying to do my part: more chores, being romantic, trying to communicate with her, etc. I have my weaknesses, but I am doing my duties as a husband, and I am loving and gentle with my wife.
But there is still almost no conjugal life. I try every few weeks, and each time she either says she's too tired or acts extremely passive during the act. I'm still alone the one keeping track of her fertility and taking our daily fertility supplements. We have no children.
Bottom line is she is not actively trying to have a conjugal life or to have children. Since we got married. And she is at an age where she doesn't have much time left to get pregnant.
In the past we've been to 2 priests and 1 counselor. At this point I am considering a temporary separation, but I wouldn't be able to move out yet. I would need to use the guest bedroom. This would not be a view to divorce, or turning my back on her, but as a next step in trying to have a healthy marriage.
My questions are, how does one go about a trial separation? when still living under the same roof? with the goal being to eventually reconcile? I can't find references on this, so I'm in uncharted waters.
Thanks.
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I mean it's time for the Ultimatum.
This is what you should say to her and sternly:
"You either have sex with me since it is your Catholic duty and a mortal sin to refuse me or I will separate from you until you can learn some humility and to think of someone else besides yourself (her). This marriage is going downhill and you have no one to blame but yourself. I do my duty by providing, you completely reject yours, which is diabolical!"
Sounds to me like she is manic depressive just from what you've said. Seems like there is something deeply wrong with her but she is not telling you.
It is time to stop being a nice guy to her. Period. Sometimes love means acting in just anger. I have had to do it before with my wife when she started acting that way and she snapped out of it after I laid down the law.
Let me re-iterate this again. Stop being nice to her. Stop being romantic, stop trying to talk to her, stop stop stop stop stop. You have tried all those things. They don't work. What have you not tried?
Ignoring her. Telling her she is being selfish. Putting her in her place. Emotionally detach yourself. She is doing it to you and the more you come groveling back to her, the more power you give her. You have to be your own man. You have to lay down the law. You have to make her realize that she is being a nuclear level PITA.
Does she even go to confession, does she even believe what the Church teaches? From what I read it sounds like she doesn't even have the faith.
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Stop doing chores, stop being nice to her, stop trying to be romantic.
Stop all that.
It is not your duty to do domestic chores anyway, it's hers.
You need to snap her out of this, what you're doing isn't working. It's time to reach down deep and grow a pair and lay down the law on her.
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We don't need, what was it, pick up artists, to tell us the stuff I put in my advice above (and was greeted with the expected mewling.) The nature of women was well known by our forebears and you can find all these ideas in things written before the internet. And it is in the movies when they were invented. Here, anyone remember this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M25sE8Ccapc
You know what, OP? This is Brennus. You can private message me if you like. I am interested in your predicament and don't want to debate my ideas where trolls can pounce-- I mean we have people now saying sex is no fun, for crying out loud -- or, not as bad, some well-meaning people don't quite get what I'm saying.
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]I mean it's time for the Ultimatum[/b].
This is what you should say to her and sternly:
"You either have sex with me since it is your Catholic duty and a mortal sin to refuse me or I will separate from you until you can learn some humility and to think of someone else besides yourself (her). This marriage is going downhill and you have no one to blame but yourself. I do my duty by providing, you completely reject yours, which is diabolical!"
Sounds to me like she is manic depressive just from what you've said. Seems like there is something deeply wrong with her but she is not telling you.
It is time to stop being a nice guy to her. Period. Sometimes love means acting in just anger. I have had to do it before with my wife when she started acting that way and she snapped out of it after I laid down the law.
Let me re-iterate this again. Stop being nice to her. Stop being romantic, stop trying to talk to her, stop stop stop stop stop. You have tried all those things. They don't work. What have you not tried?
Ignoring her. Telling her she is being selfish. Putting her in her place. Emotionally detach yourself. She is doing it to you and the more you come groveling back to her, the more power you give her. You have to be your own man. You have to lay down the law. You have to make her realize that she is being a nuclear level PITA.
Does she even go to confession, does she even believe what the Church teaches? From what I read it sounds like she doesn't even have the faith.
I agree. I gave this exact ultimatum early last summer before insisting we go to counseling. The problem is still persisting, so the next logical step after the ultimatum would be separation.
But how do I go about that? I'm in uncharted waters. Right now I'd need to live in the guest room.
Our trad priest kind of blew us off, and the counselor said the organization as a policy did not ever recommend separation (which made no sense).
So I'm basically left to figure this out by myself.
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Well you have to deliver. Give her one last chance. Lay down the law again, but this time deliver. Say we have sex right now or I'm separating. Move all your stuff into the other room and act like she doesn't exist. She will eventually come around, if not you basically have to move out for a brief period until she repents.
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Well you have to deliver. Give her one last chance. Lay down the law again, but this time deliver. Say we have sex right now or I'm separating. Move all your stuff into the other room and act like she doesn't exist. She will eventually come around, if not you basically have to move out for a brief period until she repents.
Quit going to the counselor. I forgot to mention that. He is your enemy.
I'm not saying any more about this.
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UPDATE:
My questions are, how does one go about a trial separation? when still living under the same roof? with the goal being to eventually reconcile? I can't find references on this, so I'm in uncharted waters.
Thanks.
1917 Code of Canon Law
Canon 1128 - The married couple is obliged to live together in conjugal relations, unless just cause frees them from this obligation.
Canon 1129 - For reason of adultery of one party, the other has the right to solve even for all times the community of life, though the marriage bond remains, unless the other consented to the crime, or was the cause of it, or expressly, or tacitly, condoned it, or, finally, committed the same crime himself, or herself. Tacit condoning of the crime consists in this that the innocent party, after having become certain of the crime, nevertheless continues to live with the other in marital relations such the law presumes to be the case, unless the innocent part within six months either expel or leave the guilty partner, or bring legal accusation against him, or her.
Canon 1130 - The married person who, either upon sentence of the judge, or by his or her own authority lawfully leaves the guilty party, has no longer obligation to again admit the adulterer to conjugal life; the innocent part, however, has the right to admit the guilty partner, and to oblige him, or her, to return, unless he or she has in the meantime, with the consent of the innocent part, embraced a state of life contrary to marriage.
Canon 1131 - Other reasons for separation: if one party joins a non-Catholic sect; or educates the offspring as non-Catholics; or leads a criminal and despicable life; or creates great bodily or spiritual danger to the other party; or if through cruelties he or she makes living together too difficult, and other such reasons, which are to the innocent party so many legal causes to leave the guilty party by authority of the Ordinary of the diocese, or also by private authority, if the guilt of the other party is certain beyond doubt, and there is danger in delay. In all cases the common life must be restored when the reason for the separation ceases; if, however, the separation was pronounced by the bishop either for a time, of indefinitely, the innocent party is not obliged to return except when the time specified has elapsed or the bishop gives orders to return.
Canon 1132 - After the separation, the children are to be placed in charge of the innocent party, and if one of the parties is a non-Catholic the Catholic party is to have charge over them, that they may be raised as Catholics, unless the Ordinary decides differently for the sake of the welfare of the children, always safeguarding their Catholic education.
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UPDATE:
My questions are, how does one go about a trial separation? when still living under the same roof? with the goal being to eventually reconcile? I can't find references on this, so I'm in uncharted waters.
Thanks.
1917 Code of Canon Law
Canon 1128 - The married couple is obliged to live together in conjugal relations, unless just cause frees them from this obligation.
Canon 1129 - For reason of adultery of one party, the other has the right to solve even for all times the community of life, though the marriage bond remains, unless the other consented to the crime, or was the cause of it, or expressly, or tacitly, condoned it, or, finally, committed the same crime himself, or herself. Tacit condoning of the crime consists in this that the innocent party, after having become certain of the crime, nevertheless continues to live with the other in marital relations such the law presumes to be the case, unless the innocent part within six months either expel or leave the guilty partner, or bring legal accusation against him, or her.
Canon 1130 - The married person who, either upon sentence of the judge, or by his or her own authority lawfully leaves the guilty party, has no longer obligation to again admit the adulterer to conjugal life; the innocent part, however, has the right to admit the guilty partner, and to oblige him, or her, to return, unless he or she has in the meantime, with the consent of the innocent part, embraced a state of life contrary to marriage.
Canon 1131 - Other reasons for separation: if one party joins a non-Catholic sect; or educates the offspring as non-Catholics; or leads a criminal and despicable life; or creates great bodily or spiritual danger to the other party; or if through cruelties he or she makes living together too difficult, and other such reasons, which are to the innocent party so many legal causes to leave the guilty party by authority of the Ordinary of the diocese, or also by private authority, if the guilt of the other party is certain beyond doubt, and there is danger in delay. In all cases the common life must be restored when the reason for the separation ceases; if, however, the separation was pronounced by the bishop either for a time, of indefinitely, the innocent party is not obliged to return except when the time specified has elapsed or the bishop gives orders to return.
Canon 1132 - After the separation, the children are to be placed in charge of the innocent party, and if one of the parties is a non-Catholic the Catholic party is to have charge over them, that they may be raised as Catholics, unless the Ordinary decides differently for the sake of the welfare of the children, always safeguarding their Catholic education.
Thanks, I've read through those canons before. What I'm very unclear about is what the Church advises to do during the trial separation itself. What steps to take that would compel the unfaithful spouse to repent. I can find nothing to read about this. You'd think it would be discussed more to help couples avoid divorce.
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Thanks, I've read through those canons before. What I'm very unclear about is what the Church advises to do during the trial separation itself. What steps to take that would compel the unfaithful spouse to repent. I can find nothing to read about this. You'd think it would be discussed more to help couples avoid divorce.
One cannot compel another to repent. It is possible that seeing you have reached the point of leaving her may lead her to some self-reflection. You need to be prepared for the possibility that she cannot or will not change.
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I doubt if leaving her will cause a change of heart. It will probably cause her to file divorce papers and eventually get married to someone else.