You got it wrong. You're too worried about sharing your intimate feels and emotions. Don't do that, at least very little. You have to be careful with this or it will become a normal thing. Your wife does not care.

Ridiculous.  You have an incredibly worldly perspective on things.  Your less Catholic promiscuous years still show in your attitudes.  You'll see in the lives of the greatest Catholic saintly couples that they had deep spiritual relationships ... with physical relationships being secondary or even non-existent.  You need only look to St. Joseph & Our Lady, or Sts. Joachim & Ann, and the parents of St. Therese.  We are married in order to help one another get to heaven, not in order to play "alpha male".  That's an incredibly secular and juvenile attitude.  This doesn't mean that a man shouldn't be strong, but the relationship between husband and wife runs much deeper that strength vs. submission.  You speak like some kind of MTV-watching teenager.

I don't pretend to hold myself higher than most women, but for me that quoted statement is absolutely false. It's a gross overgeneralization.

Most serious Catholic wives find this to be "absolutely false" as well.

If you want a woman to do what you want her to do, stop pouring out your feelings to her, to women that is a sign of weakness, and I don't care what the women on this thread say about it, it is true.

What, are you about 16 years old?

Ridiculous.  You have an incredibly worldly perspective on things.  Your less Catholic promiscuous years still show in your attitudes.  You'll see in the lives of the greatest Catholic saintly couples that they had deep spiritual relationships ... with physical relationships being secondary or even non-existent.  You need only look to St. Joseph & Our Lady, or Sts. Joachim & Ann, and the parents of St. Therese.  We are married in order to help one another get to heaven, not in order to play "alpha male".  That's an incredibly secular and juvenile attitude.  This doesn't mean that a man shouldn't be strong, but the relationship between husband and wife runs much deeper that strength vs. submission.  You speak like some kind of MTV-watching teenager.

You're free to have that opinion. I never said you shouldn't have a holy relationship.

Being a leader and acting instead of puking out your emotions to your wife all the time is juvenile? Ok buddy. I never said anything about there not being a deep relationship, but you have to get there first, and you don't do it by being a push-over.

I never said don't communicate. I was emphasizing the approach to that communication.

It is pretty easy at my parish to see which wives wear the pants.

In marriage the wife and the husband get to enjoy having sex with each other. As you people probably know, sex can be pretty nice. The thing is though, the spouses have a duty to have sex with each other (every reasonable request). This is DOGMA. I like to call it the sex dogma. At least, it's an important teaching even if it's not a real dogma. Anyway, it's important to make lots of money because when you have sex your wife might get prego. And as we all know, children can be expensive. So you need to have a good job to support your wife and children, and be a good husband. This is also why a man shouldn't get married unless he can reasonably be expected to support his wife and family. If he doesn't have a good job, even though he might love his wife and like having sex with her, he won't be a good husband. So I think it's important. I think you guys would agree.

Being a leader and acting instead of puking out your emotions to your wife all the time is juvenile? Ok buddy. I never said anything about there not being a deep relationship, but you have to get there first, and you don't do it by being a push-over.

I never said don't communicate. I was emphasizing the approach to that communication.

It is pretty easy at my parish to see which wives wear the pants.

You write and think like an immature teenager.

Nobody was talking about "puking out emotions".  I was talking about communication so that the two people know one another deeply.  You are the one who asserted that wives "don't care" what you think or don't care to get to know you ... which a number of wives chimed in on and rejected.  Your post reduced the relationship between husband and wife to sharing the same living space and having sex every once in a while.  But maybe you're just incapable of articulating yourself properly.

The actual reality is that none of those are good enough reasons for her to deny him.

A. Trust Providence
B. Too bad for her but it's a chance for her to overcome herself and help him. No one is perfect and turning a bad leader into a sex-starved bad leader is a terrible solution.
C. Again too bad, she married him. Attraction ebbs and flows even in good relationships, and she has a chance to put her will to good use. Besides, denying him and creating a toxic relationship is not going to help, but making the effort for him will. Her love and attraction has much more chance if she chooses to give it a chance.

I think a lot of our problems with understanding this stem from Hollywood's pretense that everything will be perfect every time. It seems that very few are warned that a healthy and happy sex life is something that needs to be worked at. And not just by buying silly books or doing the superficial things the world suggests. See how little that helps them in the long run. When we self-sacrifice for another person it doesn't just help them, it changes us too; it fills us with grace and expands our love for that person. It's true even in this.
 

I never said they were good reasons, but they are reasons of most wives, whether they think it or subconsciously think it.

Not everything in the world is evil. There is nothing evil about being attractive and being a leader and having enough money to support your family. Saying otherwise is simply not a Catholic perspective on the matter.

You are implying that the things I said don't matter, but they do. Praying is important, but you can't force someone to do the will of God.

Sometimes you have to try natural means as well, this can stem from grace.

If you are doing everything you can to attract your wife then ok, but it is not JUST a spiritual issue. Sex is a natural act.

If you wife looked like a hag all the time, was over-weight, tried to run the house, and did not due her duties do you think the husband would want to have sex with her? I doubt it.

You can talk about the spiritual issues, and I agree, there are spiritual issues. But the reality is we have original sin and are attracted to beautiful things. If one spouse is not keeping up their end of the bargain on the natural level, then you can't just say "pray it away" because that's essentially what you're doing. You can pray for someone to take a shower and shave, but that doesn't mean they will.

You should definitely be praying, but you should also be looking at what to do on the natural level.



This entire thread has turned into a big joke. None of you have offered solutions to the problem except telling him to pray.


Reminds me of the story of the guy who prayed to God to save him from a sinking ship and a lifeboat and helicopter come and he still says "No thanks, God will save me". You people are acting like the natural world we live in doesn't exist and that God doesn't use it.

This is an anonymous forum but I want to announce that this is Fabricius Brennus posting this dose of reality for, what appears to be a bunch of younger Catholics.  

One of the reasons I don't post here so much is I can't stand the Catholic crypto feminists. However, this controversy, which comes up from time to time in forums, is one of the most ridiculous, time wasting arguments I know and seeing it unfold here again  . . . I just can't hold my peace.  

It is a mortal sin for the spouse to deny the marriage debt. There are exceptions, but “feelings” are not one of them. The women who are arguing in favor of the wife withholding because she doesn't feel her husband listens to her enough, should look at the nine ways we can be an accessory to another's sin because they are, in fact doing that, by counsel, and by approving of the ill done. Ye might want to confess it.

I will quickly add that sometimes it is the man who commits this sin and I know three marriages right off the top of my head that were ruined by the man not lying with his wife as is his duty. However, this thread seems to be driven by the woman's denial more so than the man.

In that regard, I would say to the husband that perhaps he needs to stop begging and just grab the woman and carry her into the bedroom (he had better be able to pick his wife up and carry her – maybe that is the trouble) and close the door and get started. Do not doubt for a minute that women prefer men to initiate. It is very possible that a younger wife who is pulling this crap is challenging her husband. Each time he just goes along with it and begs for sex he is looking more and more like a wuss and she can't possibly find him attractive.  

ON A SIDE NOTE: I warn you, if a man keeps that up, that same wife who is refusing him sex is very likely going to cheat on him with some other guy who isn't afraid to go after what he wants.  Now, I think that is a lot less likely with a traditional Catholic woman who is a stay-at-home mother with children, but if such a  woman is denying her husband . . . . . well, that's not much of a traditional Catholic woman anyway so who knows.
 
Now back to the main topic, if she absolutely resists and says no, then ignore her. Oh, what? You say that she says that is the problem in the first place. I call bullshit on that. A husband does not really ignore his wife. Men LOVE their wives and DO listen to what they are saying, just like  they listen to their children. A lot of these woman who think they are being ignored don't know what being ignored is, so, as a plan B, I would suggest showing her that. Do not talk to her at all. Cut her off totally. Don't sleep in the same bed with her. If a separation is possible, maybe even do that, but talk to a priest first. If you can't afford to live apart, then just do the best you can in the house.

While most of my advice here is secular in nature, and a bit cruel, this part enters the realm of devotion. Forget about sex for a while. Take up reading The Little Office every day and study some classic Catholic writings (You'll have time because you are not going to be wasting any of it trying to spoil her into sleeping with you.) While doing this, put yourself on a mission of self improvement. Put more effort into your job, or career or something. Become a better man. Maybe in six months, give her another shot at things. Remember, YOU ARE THE INJURED PARTY HERE, SIR!!!!  Don't let any of these witches fool you into thinking otherwise.  

Lastly, bring up the possibility of annulment. Now, before any of the little witches on here get their rumps up the air, I will say I am not in favor of annulmentism. This is the nuclear option and I suggest it only because it serves  a purpose. Point out to the that perhaps she did not enter the marriage with the right intent and that maybe you could seek a civil divorce and seek an annulment. You might not truly be attempting to do that however a wife such as we are considering is USING the strict sacramental nature of marriage to torture her husband for some psychopathic feministic power trippery so why not pull that rug out from under her and make it clear that she “can be replaced.”

If you are able, it might not even hurt to have a few woman friends – don't commit adultery or ever put yourself in dangerous situations, – but the ugly truth is that a woman finds men attractive whom other women find attractive. There is also the “dread” factor again, where she might get the message that “she can be replaced.”

That's the best advice I can give you. But I have two more things on this topic, and then I probably won't post again for a while.

INITIATION: I noticed the question raised about who should initiate sex and an asinine attempt to solve by abstracting from some moral dogma writing. I think t his varies a bit. Women in general seem to prefer the man to initiate. In good marriages, I think the man usually will seek the marriage debt by initiating sex and his wife will be happy with that BUT occasionally – like every now and then, she will do so. Some women perhaps more often while others never. If you are a man who married a woman who never wants to initiate, just accept that. It isn't so bad.  

AN OBSERVATION: We are always told that the sex problems in marriage can't be fixed until the communication problems are, or some other issue is. That is bullshit. IF THE SEX PROBLEMS ARE NOT FIXED NOTHING ELSE CAN BE FIXED. The sex problem will ALWAYS come up when trying to solve the other problems and become mixed in with everything. However (now listen  up ye young couples, this is good information from an older man in a happy marriage) if you fix the sex problems it will make it possible to solve the other problems.  I promise you this is the truth.

So in short, knock off the crap and have marital intercourse. In other words, grow the Hell up.