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Author Topic: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite  (Read 24609 times)

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Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2021, 02:28:06 PM »
Sean @ reply #90 sounds as if believes negative or positive doubt is objective. Neither is. Doubt is a state of mind, and hence subjective. Moreover, the Liénart case does elicit positive doubt from many thoughtful Catholics: the affirmative argument from the teaching of Leo XIII's presumption and the opposing argument from a profound understanding of the psychological profile of a supernaturally controlled true-believing bad actor seem to many to be of equal value, for there are grave reasons to fear error. Perhaps not for Sean; his fear of error may rest on slight reasons. But then doubt is subjective, isn't it? Positive or negative doubt is based on the intensity of the fears one has of erring. Perhaps if Sean had deeper insight into the psyche of a genuine Mason he might form a positive doubt regarding the orders of men ordained or consecrated by Liénart.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:


"Doubt is either positive or negative. In the former case, the evidence for and against is so equally balanced as to render decision impossible; in the latter, the doubt arises from the absence of sufficient evidence on either side."
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05141a.htm  

The Lienart theory clearly matches the latter definition of negative doubt.

Here's another definition of "negative doubt" by Prummer:

"A negative doubt is to be despised.  This axiom is accepted by all moral theologians. A negative doubt is a doubt that is not based upon any reason. It is the question “what if” that we frequently ask for no reason at all. Such a doubt cannot weaken moral certitude and is not reasonable. (Cf. Prummer, Manuale Theologiae Moralis, I, §328.)"

"What if" is clearly all the case you have built for the Leinart theory rests upon.  

Nothing you have posted thus far even remotely approached positive doubt.

Its all imagination, extraneous conjecture, and "what if."


Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
« Reply #96 on: October 26, 2021, 02:45:09 PM »
Cardinal Gasparri (primary editor of the 1917 CIC) says invalid intention is NEVER presumed until the contrary is PROVED:

“In performing an ordination the minister is never presumed to have such an intention of not ordaining, as long as the contrary would not be proved. For no one is presumed evil unless he is proven as such, and an act — especially one as solemn as an ordination — must be regarded as valid, as long as invalidity would not be clearly demonstrated.” (Gasparri, 1:970.)


Änσnymσus

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Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2021, 06:17:02 PM »
Liénart's docuмented Masonic membership and his public record furnish the subjective evidence -- the certitude-- for traditional Catholics to avoid all clergy in his line as the safer course.

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Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
« Reply #98 on: October 26, 2021, 06:42:54 PM »
Liénart's docuмented Masonic membership and his public record furnish the subjective evidence -- the certitude-- for traditional Catholics to avoid all clergy in his line as the safer course.
Well it makes sense that when the freemasons and jews took over the Church that they would try to make sure that the resistance that came about was by clergy with invalid orders.

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Re: Found out priest was ordained in New Rite
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2021, 07:48:00 PM »
Re: Reply # 64

To borrow from Leeming: "It would not be a compliment to knowledge of wisdom" to rest one's "defense upon any ground so treacherous as the absolute sufficiency of an 'external' intention."

Quote
I must disabuse the woefully amateur (and wrong) "theologians" here. The presumption that, every time a Catholic cleric undertakes seriously to perform a sacrament, it is done validly, i.e., matter, form, and intention were all three present, is a rebuttable presumption, called in canon law a praesumptio juris tantum. A majority of theologians, contra the Augustinian F. Farvacques, hold that Leo XIII's statement in Apostolicae curae that "a person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to confect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do what the church does" can be overthrown. As B. Leeming, S.J., commented, the presumption is only "the first obvious norm upon which to begin an examination where there is doubt about intention." Worthy of note is that Farvacques, who went so far as to argue "that even if the minister most explicitly excludes what the Church does, nevertheless the mere pronouncement of the words and use of the matter is sufficient for validity" was condemned. Leeming notes that "the condemnation of Farvacques shows that a distinct and clear will not to do what they Church does would invalidate a sacrament; and in this sense the private intention is relevant."