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Author Topic: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!  (Read 10844 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
« Reply #75 on: May 07, 2021, 01:25:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 07, 2021, 01:10:55 PM
    This does not mean that all Catholic teaching is contained in Trent.  What it means is that nothing taught there can be contradicted by anyone.

    You don't seem to be honest. Are you fooling yourself? Or are you really not able to read and understand some 15 lines of text?


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    What it means is that nothing taught there can be contradicted by anyone.

    It means what it says, and not what you want it to mean. It says that the sacred and holy, oecuмenical and general Synod of Trent expounds


    Quote
    to all the faithful of Christ the true and sound doctrine touching the said Justification; [...] most strictly forbidding that any henceforth presume to believe, preach, or teach, otherwise than as by this present decree is defined and declared

    ... with respect to the topic of the Decree (Justification).


    Quote from: Ladislaus on May 07, 2021, 01:10:55 PM
    This does not mean that all Catholic teaching is contained in Trent.

    Indeed.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #76 on: May 07, 2021, 01:26:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 07, 2021, 01:10:55 PM
    This does not mean that all Catholic teaching is contained in Trent.  What it means is that nothing taught there can be contradicted by anyone.
    As I said above (forgot to click on silly box), grammar and syntax are clearly NOT the strength of this particular adversarius.
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    Offline Prayerful

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #77 on: May 07, 2021, 02:05:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 03, 2021, 04:48:48 AM
    Great news indeed.  At least some people recognize the true theological roots of this Crisis.
    Cardinal Cushing who rush off to get Fr Feeney excommunicated, at the bidding of young Havardman Bobby Kennedy, was also fervent indifferentist well before V2.
    I'm wary of the term for St Dismas was hardly baptised in a formal way unless by the water which flows from our Saviour - a Feeneyite would set the matter in context. It savours of a go to term to attack those trads someone dislikes. Jansenist was used to be used that way once, when nearly all those originally so dubbed were more disgusted at Jesuit Probabalism, which bl Innocent XI later condemned. It means nothing and everything. 
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #78 on: May 07, 2021, 02:45:06 PM »
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    • Thank you Ladislaus and Prayerful.  You bring it together quite well.  I read the Boston Heresy Case. Fr. Feeney knew his Faith, knowledge, his attitude and behavior speak well of him to save souls from the enemy!  He and others saw to it to teach well so that there would not be a loss of Faith.

    I am watchful of the enemy, how they do the KAB.  Knowledge, begets attitude, begets Behavior.  The enemy is very clever, the demons working through the radical jews as Our Lady said would happen.

    All it takes is just one letter changed in a word, such as "same" to "similar" in the Apostles Creed to start havoc.

    Thank You!
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #79 on: May 07, 2021, 10:18:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 07, 2021, 01:25:24 PM
    You don't seem to be honest. Are you fooling yourself? Or are you really not able to read and understand some 15 lines of text?


    It means what it says, and not what you want it to mean. It says that the sacred and holy, oecuмenical and general Synod of Trent expounds


    ... with respect to the topic of the Decree (Justification).


    Indeed.

    You’re really helping to discredit the anti-BoD position with this nonsense.  Makes me wonder whether you’re a troll.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #80 on: May 08, 2021, 04:38:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 07, 2021, 10:18:38 PM
    You’re really helping to discredit the anti-BoD position with this nonsense.  Makes me wonder whether you’re a troll.
    No one should have answered the coward that started this thread. There is no reason to post something like this as an anonymous. Besides, these anonymous threads can easily be used extended forever by one person posting strawmen to make himself look good.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #81 on: May 08, 2021, 04:50:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 07, 2021, 10:18:38 PM
    You’re really helping to discredit the anti-BoD position with this nonsense.  Makes me wonder whether you’re a troll.
    No one should have answered the coward that started this thread. There is no reason to post something like this as an αnσnymσus. Besides, these αnσnymσus threads can easily be used extended forever by one person posting strawmen to make himself look good.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #82 on: May 08, 2021, 07:36:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 07, 2021, 10:18:38 PM
    You’re really helping to discredit the anti-BoD position with this nonsense.  Makes me wonder whether you’re a troll.


    Quote

    DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION

    Proem.

    Whereas there is, at this time, not without the shipwreck of many souls, and grievous detriment to the unity of the Church, a certain erroneous doctrine disseminated touching Justification; the sacred and holy, oecuмenical and general Synod of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, –the most reverend lords, Giammaria del Monte, bishop of Palaestrina, and Marcellus of the title of the Holy Cross in Jerusalem, priest, cardinals of the holy Roman Church, and legates apostolic a latere, presiding therein, in the name of our most holy father and lord in Christ, Paul III., by the providence of God, Pope,– purposes, unto the praise and glory of Almighty God, the tranquillising of the Church, and the salvation of souls, to expound to all the faithful of Christ the true and sound doctrine touching the said Justification; which (doctrine) the sun of justice, Christ Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, taught, which the apostles transmitted, and which the Catholic Church, the Holy Ghost reminding her thereof, has always retained; most strictly forbidding that any henceforth presume to believe, preach, or teach, otherwise than as by this present decree is defined and declared.

    Quote from: Ladislaus on May 06, 2021, 07:17:45 PM
    Trent did not teach Baptism of Desire.

    It's most strictly forbidden to believe, preach, or teach Baptism of Desire, or Baptism of Blood.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #83 on: May 08, 2021, 08:13:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 06, 2021, 05:31:36 PM
    Definitely Meg.
    Actually, it wasn't me this time. I don't know enough about BoD/BoB to really speculate. Though I do think that this forum is mostly for sedes and sedewhatevers. 
    I do tend to lean toward BoB though. I was looking through my St. Andrew Daily Missal yesterday, reading about the various saints on their feast days, and I came across a saint who was a catechumen who was martyred before was baptized. This is from page 1072 in the St. Andrew missal:
            January 23
    St. Emerentiana, Virgin and Martyr
          Red vestments
    "A foster-sister of St. Agnes, the virgin Emerentiana, who while still a catechumen shed tears on the tomb of her friend who had just been martyred.  Some Pagans mocked at her grief.  She, full of the divine virtue of which Jesus is the source (Collect), reproached the idolaters with their cruelty towards Agnes, and they in their fury stoned her on that very tomb. Baptized in her own blood, she went to join for evermore her Spouse and her sister (about 304)."
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline The Worm

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #84 on: May 08, 2021, 08:41:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on May 08, 2021, 08:13:45 AM
     and I came across a saint who was a catechumen who was martyred before was baptized. This is from page 1072 in the St. Andrew missal:
            January 23
    St. Emerentiana, Virgin and Martyr
          Red vestments
    "A foster-sister of St. Agnes, the virgin Emerentiana, who while still a catechumen shed tears on the tomb of her friend who had just been martyred.  Some Pagans mocked at her grief.  She, full of the divine virtue of which Jesus is the source (Collect), reproached the idolaters with their cruelty towards Agnes, and they in their fury stoned her on that very tomb. Baptized in her own blood, she went to join for evermore her Spouse and her sister (about 304)."
    She was canonized by her bishop (year unknown) before the end of the 11th century when the Church required that all beatification & canonization must have Holy See approval, and not be done solely by bishops.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #85 on: May 08, 2021, 09:00:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: The Worm on May 08, 2021, 08:41:37 AM
    She was canonized by her bishop (year unknown) before the end of the 11th century when the Church required that all beatification & canonization must have Holy See approval, and not be done solely by bishops.


    So all beatifications and canonizations before the 11th century are suspect? That's a whole lotta saints. 

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #86 on: May 08, 2021, 09:30:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 08, 2021, 04:50:37 AM
    No one should have answered the coward that started this thread. There is no reason to post something like this as an αnσnymσus. Besides, these αnσnymσus threads can easily be used extended forever by one person posting strawmen to make himself look good.

    You make a good point.  In αnσnymσus, it's very easy for someone to introduce and mobilize a number of sock puppets.  It's a favorite tactic of governments to demonize the opposition toe planting people in the opposition to make them look bad.  I'll refrain from further comment on this thread.

    There's no proof that St. Emerentiana wasn't already baptized with water.  During times of persecution, the Church commanded that catechumens all be baptized even though they would continue on in the status of catechumen to receive further instruction.  They continued to be called catechumens even though they were Baptized because their formation wasn't complete yet.  There's direct proof of this.  There are numerous references to known baptized Catholics (including the case of a priest) who were spoken of by the Fathers as having been baptized in their own blood as a second Baptism that washed them of actual sin so they would directly enter Heaven without any Purgatory.  So this is not conclusive proof of anything.  Baptism of Blood, furthermore, is a completely distinct notion to the Fathers, with many of them believing in BoB but rejecting BoD.  And they believed in BoB because they believed that it was the actual Sacrament, with all the "sacred elements", with blood supplying for water and the angels pronouncing the form of Baptism.

    These types of quotes have been dealt with at least a hundred times already, but people keep slapping the same things out there as if they were new and provide a sudden smoking-gun proof of the position.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #87 on: May 08, 2021, 09:59:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 08, 2021, 09:30:44 AM
    You make a good point.  In αnσnymσus, it's very easy for someone to introduce and mobilize a number of sock puppets.  It's a favorite tactic of governments to demonize the opposition toe planting people in the opposition to make them look bad.  I'll refrain from further comment on this thread.

    There's no proof that St. Emerentiana wasn't already baptized with water.  During times of persecution, the Church commanded that catechumens all be baptized even though they would continue on in the status of catechumen to receive further instruction.  They continued to be called catechumens even though they were Baptized because their formation wasn't complete yet.  There's direct proof of this.  There are numerous references to known baptized Catholics (including the case of a priest) who were spoken of by the Fathers as having been baptized in their own blood as a second Baptism that washed them of actual sin so they would directly enter Heaven without any Purgatory.  So this is not conclusive proof of anything.  Baptism of Blood, furthermore, is a completely distinct notion to the Fathers, with many of them believing in BoB but rejecting BoD.  And they believed in BoB because they believed that it was the actual Sacrament, with all the "sacred elements", with blood supplying for water and the angels pronouncing the form of Baptism.

    These types of quotes have been dealt with at least a hundred times already, but people keep slapping the same things out there as if they were new and provide a sudden smoking-gun proof of the position.
    True; we don't have proof that St. Emerentiana wasn't baptized with water. But surely, the Holy See in the 11th century (or whenever she was officially canonized) would have known about catechumens being baptized with water while still a catechumen in times of persecution. If what you say is true, then the Holy See must have also taken that into consideration, or perhaps you believe that you have more knowledge that the Holy See at that time, and that the Holy see was ignorant of the situation. 
    She is described as being baptized with blood. I'll take that as the true situation until there's proof otherwise. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #88 on: May 08, 2021, 10:00:21 AM »
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    • Sorry, that's my post above this one. I forgot to check that non-anonymous box. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #89 on: May 08, 2021, 01:32:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 08, 2021, 09:59:20 AM
    She is described as being baptized with blood. I'll take that as the true situation until there's proof otherwise.

    Well, that's the problem.  Martyrs are referred to in the Church Fathers as having been baptized in their own blood ... even if they're baptized Christians, so that expression is inconclusive.

    Here's St. John Chrysostom on St. Lucian:
    Quote
    Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a Baptism; for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is a taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul; and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood.

    He's speaking here about the martyrdom of St. Lucian.  St. Lucian was a priest, already baptized.

    This is that tradition where martyrs are cleansed of all sin by martyrdom and thus go straight to heaven without any Purgatory time, so they are said to receive a second baptism, a washing of their sins.
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