Author Topic: Feeneyites Are Everywhere! (Read 22129 times)

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #95 on:** May 09, 2021, 12:30:36 AM »

“In his book Church History, Father John Laux, M. A., writes:

‘If he [the Christian] was destined to lose his life, he had been taught that martyrdom was a second Baptism, which washed away every stain, and that the soul of the martyr was secure in immediate admission to the perfect happiness of heaven.’

“Fifth, when a martyr is referred to as a ‘catechumen,’ it does not always mean he was not yet baptized. A catechumen was a person learning the Faith, as a student in a class called a catechumenate, under a teacher called a catechist. That students continued in their class even after they were baptized is confirmed conclusively by these words of Saint Ambrose to his catechumens: “I know very well that many things still have to be explained. It may strike you as strange that you were not given a complete teaching on the sacraments before you were baptized. However, the ancient discipline of the Church forbids us to reveal the Christian mysteries to the uninitiated. For the full meaning of the sacraments cannot be grasped without the light which they themselves shed in your hearts.” (On the Mysteries and On the Sacraments, Saint Ambrose)

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #96 on:** May 09, 2021, 12:33:38 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 08, 2021, 11:18:09 PM

https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/h056rp.Sebaste.html

There is no proof that the fortieth martyr of Sebaste was unbaptized, whose identity is unknown.  The accounts of the story reveal that he “cried out with a loud voice that he was a Christian,” probably because he was already a baptized Catholic who was spurred on to martyrdom by the example of the other thirty-nine.  Further, in the Roman Martyrology under the date of September 9, we read:

“At Sebaste in Armenia, St. Severian, a soldier of Emperor Licinius.  For frequently visiting the Forty Martyrs in prison, he was suspended in the air with a stone tied to his feet by order of the governor Lysias…”

      It is certain that Severian was not the fortieth martyr (from the date and circuмstances of his death), but we see from this account that other people and soldiers were able to visit the forty in prison.  Thus, the forty martyrs easily could have baptized any soldiers who showed interest and sympathy with their cause, including the one who joined himself to them eventually (if he wasn’t already baptized).  Thus, there is nothing that proves that the fortieth martyr was unbaptized, and we know that he was from the truth of our Faith.

Meg · « **Reply #97 on:** May 09, 2021, 08:34:29 AM »

Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 08, 2021, 11:59:26 PM

Well.....Catechumens were sometimes referred to as such even after Baptism.
Pope St. Sylvester I, First Council of Nicaea, 325 A.D., Can. 2: “For a catechumen needs time and further probation after baptism...”

"Sometimes" isn't proof that St. Emerentiana was baptized with water before she was martyred. Not by a longshot. I trust the St. Andrew missal to mean what it says, even though it is not infallible. Our opinions here on the subject are not infallible either, no matter how many docuмents we may quote on either side of the issue.

Stubborn · « **Reply #98 on:** May 09, 2021, 09:56:50 AM »

Quote from: Meg on May 09, 2021, 08:34:29 AM

"Sometimes" isn't proof that St. Emerentiana was baptized with water before she was martyred. Not by a longshot. I trust the St. Andrew missal to mean what it says, even though it is not infallible. Our opinions here on the subject are not infallible either, no matter how many docuмents we may quote on either side of the issue.

It really is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to these glorious martyrs through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

From Who Shall Ascend?, Fr. quotes Brother Francis:
"St. Alphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by
various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized".

Meg · « **Reply #99 on:** May 09, 2021, 10:00:41 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on May 09, 2021, 09:56:50 AM

It really is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to these glorious martyrs through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

From Who Shall Ascend?, Fr. quotes Brother Francis:
"St. Alphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by
various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized".

Speculation is all that we can really do here. However, the St. Andrew missal is not speculating. That's not how the Church works.

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Author Topic: Feeneyites Are Everywhere! (Read 22129 times)

Änσnymσus

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Änσnymσus

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Meg

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Stubborn

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Meg

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