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Author Topic: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!  (Read 10766 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
« Reply #90 on: May 08, 2021, 09:16:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 08, 2021, 01:32:01 PM
    Well, that's the problem.  Martyrs are referred to in the Church Fathers as having been baptized in their own blood ... even if they're baptized Christians, so that expression is inconclusive.

    Here's St. John Chrysostom on St. Lucian:
    He's speaking here about the martyrdom of St. Lucian.  St. Lucian was a priest, already baptized.

    This is that tradition where martyrs are cleansed of all sin by martyrdom and thus go straight to heaven without any Purgatory time, so they are said to receive a second baptism, a washing of their sins.
    The St. Andrew Missal says that she was martyred as a catechumen, and that she was baptized by blood. It's quite clear. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #91 on: May 08, 2021, 09:17:15 PM »
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    • Dang, I did it again! Forget to check the non-anonymous box for the above post. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #92 on: May 08, 2021, 11:18:09 PM »
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    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #93 on: May 08, 2021, 11:32:51 PM »
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    • FWIW, this entire issue is a phenomenon limited pretty much exclusively to modern America.  Make of that what you will.
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    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #94 on: May 08, 2021, 11:59:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 08, 2021, 09:16:12 PM
    The St. Andrew Missal says that she was martyred as a catechumen, and that she was baptized by blood. It's quite clear.
    Well.....Catechumens were sometimes referred to as such even after Baptism. 
    Pope St. Sylvester I, First Council of Nicaea, 325 A.D., Can. 2: “For a catechumen needs time and further probation after baptism...”
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #95 on: May 09, 2021, 12:30:36 AM »
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    • “In his book Church History, Father John Laux, M. A., writes:
     
    ‘If he [the Christian] was destined to lose his life, he had been taught that martyrdom was a second Baptism, which washed away every stain, and that the soul of the martyr was secure in immediate admission to the perfect happiness of heaven.’
     
         “Fifth, when a martyr is referred to as a ‘catechumen,’ it does not always mean he was not yet baptized.  A catechumen was a person learning the Faith, as a student in a class called a catechumenate, under a teacher called a catechist.  That students continued in their class even after they were baptized is confirmed conclusively by these words of Saint Ambrose to his catechumens:  “I know very well that many things still have to be explained.  It may strike you as strange that you were not given a complete teaching on the sacraments before you were baptized.  However, the ancient discipline of the Church forbids us to reveal the Christian mysteries to the uninitiated.  For the full meaning of the sacraments cannot be grasped without the light which they themselves shed in your hearts.” (On the Mysteries and On the Sacraments, Saint Ambrose)
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #96 on: May 09, 2021, 12:33:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on May 08, 2021, 11:18:09 PM
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/h056rp.Sebaste.html
    There is no proof that the fortieth martyr of Sebaste was unbaptized, whose identity is unknown.  The accounts of the story reveal that he “cried out with a loud voice that he was a Christian,” probably because he was already a baptized Catholic who was spurred on to martyrdom by the example of the other thirty-nine.  Further, in the Roman Martyrology under the date of September 9, we read:
     
    “At Sebaste in Armenia, St. Severian, a soldier of Emperor Licinius.  For frequently visiting the Forty Martyrs in prison, he was suspended in the air with a stone tied to his feet by order of the governor Lysias…”
        
          It is certain that Severian was not the fortieth martyr (from the date and circuмstances of his death), but we see from this account that other people and soldiers were able to visit the forty in prison.  Thus, the forty martyrs easily could have baptized any soldiers who showed interest and sympathy with their cause, including the one who joined himself to them eventually (if he wasn’t already baptized).  Thus, there is nothing that proves that the fortieth martyr was unbaptized, and we know that he was from the truth of our Faith. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #97 on: May 09, 2021, 08:34:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 08, 2021, 11:59:26 PM
    Well.....Catechumens were sometimes referred to as such even after Baptism.
    Pope St. Sylvester I, First Council of Nicaea, 325 A.D., Can. 2: “For a catechumen needs time and further probation after baptism...”
    "Sometimes" isn't proof that St. Emerentiana was baptized with water before she was martyred. Not by a longshot. I trust the St. Andrew missal to mean what it says, even though it is not infallible. Our opinions here on the subject are not infallible either, no matter how many docuмents we may quote on either side of the issue. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #98 on: May 09, 2021, 09:56:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on May 09, 2021, 08:34:29 AM
    "Sometimes" isn't proof that St. Emerentiana was baptized with water before she was martyred. Not by a longshot. I trust the St. Andrew missal to mean what it says, even though it is not infallible. Our opinions here on the subject are not infallible either, no matter how many docuмents we may quote on either side of the issue.
    It really is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to these glorious martyrs through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

    If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

    From Who Shall Ascend?, Fr. quotes Brother Francis:
    "St. Alphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by
    various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized".
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #99 on: May 09, 2021, 10:00:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on May 09, 2021, 09:56:50 AM
    It really is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to these glorious martyrs through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

    If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

    From Who Shall Ascend?, Fr. quotes Brother Francis:
    "St. Alphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by
    various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized".
    Speculation is all that we can really do here. However, the St. Andrew missal is not speculating. That's not how the Church works. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #100 on: May 09, 2021, 10:24:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 08, 2021, 09:16:12 PM
    The St. Andrew Missal says that she was martyred as a catechumen, and that she was baptized by blood. It's quite clear.

    What part of catechumens were baptized in times of persecution and still called catechumens didn’t you understand?  So St. Andrew’s Missal is the new Denzinger?  I have one and there’s a fair bit of Modernism in it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #101 on: May 09, 2021, 10:27:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on May 09, 2021, 10:00:41 AM
    Speculation is all that we can really do here. However, the St. Andrew missal is not speculating. That's not how the Church works.

    St. Andrew’s Missal?  I’ve about heard it all now.   :facepalm:
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #102 on: May 09, 2021, 10:31:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on May 09, 2021, 10:24:57 AM
    What part of catechumens were baptized in times of persecution and still called catechumens didn’t you understand?  So St. Andrew’s Missal is the new Denzinger?  I have one and there’s a fair bit of Modernism in it.
    For some trads, anything that doesn't line up with their views must be Modernist.  I know that the St. Andrew missal is not infallible. Do you believe that your opinions are infallible? 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #103 on: May 09, 2021, 10:35:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 09, 2021, 10:27:03 AM
    St. Andrew’s Missal?  I’ve about heard it all now.   :facepalm:
    So I guess we need to throw out that missal, since it is Modernist, and instead go with our own opinions?
    Evidently, the Theosophist Luciferian Madame Blavastky was right - she said that there is no religion higher than Truth. Trads seem to think the same way. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
    « Reply #104 on: May 09, 2021, 10:35:59 AM »
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    • It is in the Officium Divinum. Prayed by clerics and religious for centuries.

    And it does not say that St. Emerentina never was baptized with water. 
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