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Author Topic: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!  (Read 22087 times)

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Offline Meg

Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
« Reply #85 on: May 08, 2021, 09:00:42 AM »
She was canonized by her bishop (year unknown) before the end of the 11th century when the Church required that all beatification & canonization must have Holy See approval, and not be done solely by bishops.


So all beatifications and canonizations before the 11th century are suspect? That's a whole lotta saints. 


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
« Reply #86 on: May 08, 2021, 09:30:44 AM »
No one should have answered the coward that started this thread. There is no reason to post something like this as an αnσnymσus. Besides, these αnσnymσus threads can easily be used extended forever by one person posting strawmen to make himself look good.

You make a good point.  In αnσnymσus, it's very easy for someone to introduce and mobilize a number of sock puppets.  It's a favorite tactic of governments to demonize the opposition toe planting people in the opposition to make them look bad.  I'll refrain from further comment on this thread.

There's no proof that St. Emerentiana wasn't already baptized with water.  During times of persecution, the Church commanded that catechumens all be baptized even though they would continue on in the status of catechumen to receive further instruction.  They continued to be called catechumens even though they were Baptized because their formation wasn't complete yet.  There's direct proof of this.  There are numerous references to known baptized Catholics (including the case of a priest) who were spoken of by the Fathers as having been baptized in their own blood as a second Baptism that washed them of actual sin so they would directly enter Heaven without any Purgatory.  So this is not conclusive proof of anything.  Baptism of Blood, furthermore, is a completely distinct notion to the Fathers, with many of them believing in BoB but rejecting BoD.  And they believed in BoB because they believed that it was the actual Sacrament, with all the "sacred elements", with blood supplying for water and the angels pronouncing the form of Baptism.

These types of quotes have been dealt with at least a hundred times already, but people keep slapping the same things out there as if they were new and provide a sudden smoking-gun proof of the position.


Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
« Reply #87 on: May 08, 2021, 09:59:20 AM »
You make a good point.  In αnσnymσus, it's very easy for someone to introduce and mobilize a number of sock puppets.  It's a favorite tactic of governments to demonize the opposition toe planting people in the opposition to make them look bad.  I'll refrain from further comment on this thread.

There's no proof that St. Emerentiana wasn't already baptized with water.  During times of persecution, the Church commanded that catechumens all be baptized even though they would continue on in the status of catechumen to receive further instruction.  They continued to be called catechumens even though they were Baptized because their formation wasn't complete yet.  There's direct proof of this.  There are numerous references to known baptized Catholics (including the case of a priest) who were spoken of by the Fathers as having been baptized in their own blood as a second Baptism that washed them of actual sin so they would directly enter Heaven without any Purgatory.  So this is not conclusive proof of anything.  Baptism of Blood, furthermore, is a completely distinct notion to the Fathers, with many of them believing in BoB but rejecting BoD.  And they believed in BoB because they believed that it was the actual Sacrament, with all the "sacred elements", with blood supplying for water and the angels pronouncing the form of Baptism.

These types of quotes have been dealt with at least a hundred times already, but people keep slapping the same things out there as if they were new and provide a sudden smoking-gun proof of the position.
True; we don't have proof that St. Emerentiana wasn't baptized with water. But surely, the Holy See in the 11th century (or whenever she was officially canonized) would have known about catechumens being baptized with water while still a catechumen in times of persecution. If what you say is true, then the Holy See must have also taken that into consideration, or perhaps you believe that you have more knowledge that the Holy See at that time, and that the Holy see was ignorant of the situation. 
She is described as being baptized with blood. I'll take that as the true situation until there's proof otherwise. 

Offline Meg

Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
« Reply #88 on: May 08, 2021, 10:00:21 AM »
Sorry, that's my post above this one. I forgot to check that non-anonymous box. 

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Feeneyites Are Everywhere!
« Reply #89 on: May 08, 2021, 01:32:01 PM »
She is described as being baptized with blood. I'll take that as the true situation until there's proof otherwise.

Well, that's the problem.  Martyrs are referred to in the Church Fathers as having been baptized in their own blood ... even if they're baptized Christians, so that expression is inconclusive.

Here's St. John Chrysostom on St. Lucian:
Quote
Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a Baptism; for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is a taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul; and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood.

He's speaking here about the martyrdom of St. Lucian.  St. Lucian was a priest, already baptized.

This is that tradition where martyrs are cleansed of all sin by martyrdom and thus go straight to heaven without any Purgatory time, so they are said to receive a second baptism, a washing of their sins.