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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on March 24, 2022, 10:46:13 PM

Title: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 24, 2022, 10:46:13 PM
We do not have to fast or abstain tomorrow, correct?
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 06:44:33 AM
It is not a Holy Day of Obligation so we fast and eat no meat on the feast of the Annunciation.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 07:47:11 AM
It is not a Holy Day of Obligation so we fast and eat no meat on the feast of the Annunciation.
It's a class 1 feast, of which you do not fast and abstain, just like it were a Sunday. A holy day of obligation requires Mass attendance.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 10:53:54 AM
It is not a Holy Day of Obligation so we fast and eat no meat on the feast of the Annunciation.
It's a class 1 feast, of which you do not fast and abstain, just like it were a Sunday. A holy day of obligation requires Mass attendance.
This doesnt answer my question
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 11:09:59 AM
We do not have to fast or abstain tomorrow, correct?
Correct.

When a solemnity falls on a Friday in Lent, the celebration of the Solemnity takes precedence over the requirement of fasting from meat or some other food. In other words, celebration of the solemnity overrides the Lenten requirement.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 11:24:03 AM
Correct.

When a solemnity falls on a Friday in Lent, the celebration of the Solemnity takes precedence over the requirement of fasting from meat or some other food. In other words, celebration of the solemnity overrides the Lenten requirement.
Thank you! God bless
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: moneil on March 25, 2022, 11:47:48 AM
It is interesting that this is in the Anonymous Forum, and more interesting that "opinions" are being given without a single citation of an authoritative source.

Traditionally this type of information would always be in a parish or chapel bulletin the preceding Sunday, and/or announced from the pulpit.

I consulted the online bulletin of Mount St. Michael's in Spokane, WA, a CMRI chapel, which has:


Quote
Fri., March 25 ANNUNCIATION B.V.M. (St. Dismas) FAST & COMPLETE ABSTINENCE FROM MEAT
Evidently it is not customary for SSPX chapels to post a weekly bulletin online, as I couldn't find one.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Stubborn on March 25, 2022, 11:57:28 AM
Correct.

When a solemnity falls on a Friday in Lent, the celebration of the Solemnity takes precedence over the requirement of fasting from meat or some other food. In other words, celebration of the solemnity overrides the Lenten requirement.
Where did you get this from?

Canon Law is:
Quote
On [Sundays] or feasts of precept, the law of abstinence or of abstinence and fast or a fast only ceases, except during Lent, nor is the vigil anticipated; likewise it ceases on Holy [Saturday] afternoon.
"Feasts of precept" are Holy Days of Obligation no? The Annunciation is not a Holy Day of Obligation and happens during Lent.

"It is not a Holy Day of Obligation so we fast and eat no meat on the feast of the Annunciation." Is the correct answer.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 11:59:58 AM
Correct.

When a solemnity falls on a Friday in Lent, the celebration of the Solemnity takes precedence over the requirement of fasting from meat or some other food. In other words, celebration of the solemnity overrides the Lenten requirement.
According to who/what?
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Emile on March 25, 2022, 12:08:04 PM
A bit of interesting information about March 25:

The Feast of the Annunciation

The Feast of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01541c.htm) (25 March), also called in old calendars (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03158a.htm): FESTUM INCARNATIONIS, INITIUM REDEMPTIONIS CONCEPTIO CHRISTI, ANNUNTIATIO CHRISTI, ANNUNTIATIO DOMINICA. In the Orient, where the part which Mary took in the Redemption is celebrated by a special feast, 26 December, the Annunciation is a feast of Christ; in the Latin Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09022a.htm), it is a feast of Mary. It probably originated shortly before or after the council of Ephesus (c. 431). At the time of the Synod of Laodicea (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08794a.htm) (372) it was not known; St. Proclus (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12449b.htm), Bishop (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm) of Constantinople (d. 446), however, seems to mention it in one of his homilies (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07448a.htm). He says, that the feast of the coming of Our Lord and Saviour (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm), when He vested Himself with the nature of man (quo hominum genus indutus), was celebrated during the entire fifth century. This homily (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07448a.htm), however, may not be genuine, or the words may be understood of the feast of Christmas (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm).

In the Latin Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09022a.htm) this feast is first mentioned in the Sacramentarium of Pope Gelasius (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06406a.htm) (d. 496), which we possess in a manuscript (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09614b.htm) of the seventh century; it is also contained in the Sacramentarium of St. Gregory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06780a.htm) (d. 604), one manuscript (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09614b.htm) of which dates back to the eighth century. Since these sacramentaries (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09296a.htm) contain additions posterior to the time of Gelasius and Gregory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06780a.htm), Duchesne (Origines du culte chrétien, 118, 261) ascribes the origin of this feast in Rome (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm) to the seventh century; Probst, however, (Sacramentarien, 264) thinks that it really belongs to the time of Pope Gelasius. The tenth Synod of Toledo (656), and Trullan Synod (692) speak of this feast as one universally celebrated in the Catholic (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm).
All Christian (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm) antiquity (against all astronomical (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02025a.htm) possibility) recognized the 25th of March as the actual day of Our Lord's (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) death. The opinion that the Incarnation also took place on that date (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04636c.htm) is found in the pseudo-Cyprianic work "De Pascha Computus", c. 240. It argues that the coming of Our Lord (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) and His death must have coincided with the creation and fall of Adam. And since the world was created in spring, the Saviour was also conceived and died shortly after the equinox of spring. Similar fanciful calculations are found in the early and later Middle Ages (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10285c.htm), and to them, no doubt, the dates of the feast of the Annunciation and of Christmas (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm) owe their origin. Consequently the ancient martyrologies (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09741a.htm) assign to the 25th of March the creation of Adam and the crucifixion of Our Lord (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm); also, the fall of Lucifer, the passing of Israel (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08193a.htm) through the Red Sea (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12688a.htm) and the immolation of Isaac. (Thurston, Christmas and the Christian Calendar, Amer. Eccl. Rev., XIX, 568.) The original date of this feast (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06021b.htm) was the 25th of March. Although in olden times most of the churches kept no feast in Lent (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09152a.htm), the Greek Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06752a.htm) in the Trullan Synod (in 692; can. 52) made an exception in favour of the Annunciation. In Rome (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm), it was always celebrated on the 25th of March. The Spanish Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) transferred it to the 18th of December, and when some tried to introduce the Roman observance of it on the 25th of March, the 18th of December was officially confirmed in the whole Spanish Church by the tenth Synod of Toledo (656). This law was abolished when the Roman liturgy was accepted in Spain (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14169b.htm).

The church of Milan (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10298a.htm), up to our times, assigns the office of this feast to the last Sunday in Advent (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01165a.htm). On the 25th of March a Mass is sung in honour (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07462a.htm) of the Annunciation. (Ordo Ambrosianus, 1906; Magistretti, Beroldus, 136.) The schismatic (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13529a.htm) Armenians (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01736b.htm) now celebrate this feast on the 7th of April. Since Epiphany for them is the feast of the birth of Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm), the Armenian (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01736b.htm) Church formerly assigned the Annunciation to 5 January, the vigil of Epiphany.

This feast was always a holy day of obligation (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11189a.htm) in the Universal Church. As such it was abrogated first for France (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06166a.htm) and the French dependencies, 9 April, 1802; and for the United States (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15156a.htm), by the Third Council of Baltimore (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02228a.htm), in 1884. By a decree (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04670a.htm) of the S.R.C., 23 April, 1895, the rank of the feast was raised from a double of the second class to a double of the first class. If this feast falls within Holy Week (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07435a.htm) or Easter Week (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm), its office is transferred to the Monday after the octave of Easter (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm). In some German churches it was the custom to keep its office the Saturday before Palm Sunday (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11432b.htm) if the 25th of March fell in Holy Week (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07435a.htm). The Greek Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06752a.htm), when the 25th of March occurs on one of the three last days in Holy Week (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07435a.htm), transfers the Annunciation to Easter (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm) Monday; on all other days, even on Easter Sunday (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm), its office is kept together with the office of the day. Although no octaves are permitted in Lent (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09152a.htm), the Dioceses of Loreto and of the Province of Venice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15333a.htm), the Carmelites (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03354a.htm), Dominicans (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12354c.htm), Servites (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09750a.htm), and Redemptorists (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12683a.htm), celebrate this feast with an octave.

Sources
Kellner, Heortologie (Freiburg, 1901), 146; Holweck, Fasti Mariani (Herder, 1892), 45; Schrod, in Kirchenlex., VIII, 82.
About this page
APA citation. Holweck, F. (1907). The Feast of the Annunciation. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
Retrieved March 25, 2022 from New Advent: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01542a.htm



Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Emile on March 25, 2022, 12:13:33 PM


This feast was always a holy day of obligation (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11189a.htm) in the Universal Church. As such it was abrogated first for France (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06166a.htm) and the French dependencies, 9 April, 1802; and for the United States (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15156a.htm), by the Third Council of Baltimore (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02228a.htm), in 1884.
Does anyone know the reason(s) given for abrogating its Holy day of obligation status?
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 12:46:20 PM
How doesn't anyone know the answer to this?

The Novus Ordo celebrates it on the same day and says no fast or abstinence is necessary. In the old rite it's a class 1 feast, a solemnity, which typically means no fast or abstinence. 
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 12:59:46 PM
Great so now I committed a sin because no one is clear about this.thanks guys :facepalm:
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 01:02:15 PM
Great so now I committed a sin because no one is clear about this.thanks guys :facepalm:
Ummm....grow up and take responsibility. YOU could have bothered to research it YOURSELF.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 01:03:45 PM
Ummm....grow up and take responsibility. YOU could have bothered to research it YOURSELF.
I did, and I got one clear answer saying you can and virtually no clear answer from tradland
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 01:09:17 PM
I did, and I got one clear answer saying you can and virtually no clear answer from tradland
That's because it depends on whether you follow the NO regs or the earlier rules. Welcome to the jungle.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: moneil on March 25, 2022, 01:21:23 PM
Quote from: Änσnymσus on Today at 01:02:15 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/anonymous-posts-allowed/feast-of-the-annunciation/msg815507/#msg815507)
Quote
Ummm....grow up and take responsibility. YOU could have bothered to research it YOURSELF.


Quote
I did, and I got one clear answer saying you can and virtually no clear answer from tradland

It seems that you received two very clear answers saying that though the Annunciation is a Feast of the 1st class and white vestments are prescribed, as this year it falls on a Friday during Lent the fast and abstinence is still observed.  Stubborn cited Canon Law and I provided a citation from the March 20th bulletin of a traditional chapel, where the priest would have consulted the Ordo when the Mass schedule for the following week was put into the bulletin.

When in doubt the safest course would be to not assume a dispensation.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: DigitalLogos on March 25, 2022, 02:01:11 PM
Quote from: Änσnymσus on Today at 01:02:15 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/anonymous-posts-allowed/feast-of-the-annunciation/msg815507/#msg815507)

It seems that you received two very clear answers saying that though the Annunciation is a Feast of the 1st class and white vestments are prescribed, as this year it falls on a Friday during Lent the fast and abstinence is still observed.  Stubborn cited Canon Law and I provided a citation from the March 20th bulletin of a traditional chapel, where the priest would have consulted the Ordo when the Mass schedule for the following week was put into the bulletin.

When in doubt the safest course would be to not assume a dispensation.
As anon stated above, it has to do with which version of Canon law you adhere to. In this case, at worst, one would sin venially out of ignorance. And even then, there's question of whether there's sin at all when the apparent Church offers dispensation according to 1983 Canon law, while those observing 1917 have no dispensation.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 02:36:38 PM
As anon stated above, it has to do with which version of Canon law you adhere to. In this case, at worst, one would sin venially out of ignorance. And even then, there's question of whether there's sin at all when the apparent Church offers dispensation according to 1983 Canon law, while those observing 1917 have no dispensation.
As the question was asked on a traditionalist Catholic forum and given the generally well-known attitude of this forum toward the councilor church and the 1983 Code of Canon Law, one would assume that the OP was asking what the traditional discipline would be.  I can just look at my parish calendar (I realize that it is not politically correct here to have a parish calendar, as opposed to a traditional chapel calendar) and know that the abstinence is dispensed today following "post VII norms" (for lack of a better phrase), as there is no fish symbol.  Many of my acquaintance, and myself, will continue to abstain.  Some will also continue to fast if that is part of their Lenten discipline.

I do believe that it was well docuмented from actual sources that the traditional discipline is to abstain, and to fast for those healthy and in the appropriate age range), even though today is a first-class feast with white vestments.  Those who opinioned that neither abstinence nor fasting is required today offered no source or justification for their opinion. 
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: moneil on March 25, 2022, 02:41:28 PM
As the question was asked on a traditionalist Catholic forum and given the generally well-known attitude of this forum toward the councilor church and the 1983 Code of Canon Law, one would assume that the OP was asking what the traditional discipline would be.  I can just look at my parish calendar (I realize that it is not politically correct here to have a parish calendar, as opposed to a traditional chapel calendar) and know that the abstinence is dispensed today following "post VII norms" (for lack of a better phrase), as there is no fish symbol.  Many of my acquaintance, and myself, will continue to abstain.  Some will also continue to fast if that is part of their Lenten discipline.

I do believe that it was well docuмented from actual sources that the traditional discipline is to abstain, and to fast for those healthy and in the appropriate age range), even though today is a first-class feast with white vestments.  Those who opinioned that neither abstinence nor fasting is required today offered no source or justification for their opinion. 
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 02:50:38 PM
Where did you get this from?

Canon Law is:"Feasts of precept" are Holy Days of Obligation no? The Annunciation is not a Holy Day of Obligation and happens during Lent.

"It is not a Holy Day of Obligation so we fast and eat no meat on the feast of the Annunciation." Is the correct answer.
https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2021/03/19/do-catholics-need-abstain-meat-saint-josephs-day-feast-day/4715139001/


Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 02:51:04 PM
Thank you! God bless
Sure thing.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 02:52:31 PM
Great so now I committed a sin because no one is clear about this.thanks guys :facepalm:
You did not commit a sin because you need matter, form and intent.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 02:53:52 PM
As anon stated above, it has to do with which version of Canon law you adhere to. In this case, at worst, one would sin venially out of ignorance. And even then, there's question of whether there's sin at all when the apparent Church offers dispensation according to 1983 Canon law, while those observing 1917 have no dispensation.
Nope.  No intent to sin means no sin.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 02:56:33 PM
Nope.  No intent to sin means no sin.
Thank goodness for that! All NOers are safe :facepalm:
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 03:00:20 PM
Thank goodness for that! All NOers are safe :facepalm:
:laugh1:
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 03:42:08 PM
Thank goodness for that! All NOers are safe :facepalm:
Haha yeah! We're so much more righteous and holy than them!! :laugh1:
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 03:55:31 PM
We do not have to fast or abstain tomorrow, correct?
Sedevacantists do, at least in the USA. https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/pdf/calendar-march-2022.pdf
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 03:57:32 PM
Sedevacantists do, at least in the USA. https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/pdf/calendar-march-2022.pdf
Sorry, I meant that as a link (https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/pdf/calendar-march-2022.pdf). I wish we could edit our own anonymous replies.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 04:16:17 PM
You did not commit a sin because you need matter, form and intent.
I think that you are mistakenly conflating what is necessary for the validity of a Sacrament with the requisites to being guilty of committing a mortal sin.

Sacramental validity: valid minister, proper matter, proper form, and intent.

Mortal sin: grave matter, knowledge, and full consent.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 04:25:55 PM
Thank goodness for that! All NOers are safe :facepalm:
EVERY Catholic is "safe" if they do something unknowingly wrong.
Sin requires matter, form, and intent. 
In this case, intent comes into play.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 04:27:17 PM
That's because it depends on whether you follow the NO regs or the earlier rules. Welcome to the jungle.
Indeed.
My sspx bulletin does not specify one way or the other.  It does not acknowledge the feast day at all.  So sad.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: DigitalLogos on March 25, 2022, 04:42:50 PM
Indeed.
My sspx bulletin does not specify one way or the other.  It does not acknowledge the feast day at all.  So sad.
Neither does mine. Generally, with the exception of the Friday lenten abstinence, and Ash Wednesday/Good Friday fast/abstinence, anything above-and-beyond is devotional. And the SSPX accepts the 1983 code, so there's no real worry about observing the Solemnity as most other Catholics do these days.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 04:50:30 PM
EVERY Catholic is "safe" if they do something unknowingly wrong.
Sin requires matter, form, and intent.
In this case, intent comes into play.
Yet again:

Quote
I think that you are mistakenly conflating what is necessary for the validity of a Sacrament with the requisites to being guilty of committing a mortal sin.

Sacramental validity: valid minister, proper matter, proper form, and intent.

Mortal sin: grave matter, knowledge, and full consent.

Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 04:57:58 PM
EVERY Catholic is "safe" if they do something unknowingly wrong.
Sin requires matter, form, and intent.
In this case, intent comes into play.
Thanks! This is good to know and it's really great news for protestants! Good for them!

Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 25, 2022, 05:56:55 PM
A little back story on March 25 formerly known as Our Lady Day.

https://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2022/03/march-25-central-turning-point-around.html
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Nadir on March 26, 2022, 01:40:28 AM
Sorry, I meant that as a link (https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/pdf/calendar-march-2022.pdf). I wish we could edit our own anonymous replies.
If you don’t post anonymously, you can edit your post. Next time tick the box.
Title: Re: Feast of the Annunciation
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 26, 2022, 10:07:11 PM
Yet again:
Yes, my mistake.  Thank you..