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Author Topic: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY  (Read 7497 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2024, 02:38:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 24, 2024, 12:59:34 PM
    Also he's a Feeneyite.

    Yet another huge plus in his favor.  I'm astonished that so few Trad clergy see the problem with EENS, since EENS-denial is at the root of all the Vatican II errors.  In point fact, most of the Trad clergy who denounce V2 ecclesiology as heretical themselves hold the same ecclesiology even if they don't know it.  This is easily demonstrable.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #16 on: January 24, 2024, 02:42:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 24, 2024, 02:05:02 PM
    The passive attendance at non-Catholic religious functions was something that was tolerated for a serious reason, rather than simply allowed as a matter of course.

    The distinction here is that the Novus Ordo is not merely a non-Catholic religious function, such as a Baptist funeral or a Lutheran wedding, but in fact claims to be and masquerades as Catholic worship.  If it is legitimate Catholic worship, then that's where one should be attending Mass, not an independent, canonically illegal venue.  If it is not legitimate Catholic worship, then (unlike the Lutheran service) it would be a sacrilege.

    That being said, I don't want to derail this thread into another debate about the NO vs Traditional Mass.

    I'm not sure that I agree forbidding a passive attendance at NO funerals.  It's well understood that individuals show up to pay their respects and that many are not participating in the religious services.  If I had a relative die, I couldn't just no-show to the funeral because there was an NO Mass taking place.  I'd sit in the back and not participate, but I'd still attend.

    Weddings, I think, are a bit more dicey, since a great number of them are invalid, and I have refused to attend some certainly-invalid marriage of relatives, since showing up to congratulate them would give the impression that I consider them validly married.  As a result, I'm not very popular with some extended family on my wife's side.  I've also skipped baby showers for bastard children among these relatives.  In each case, I have explained why.  And, here's the thing.  If all our supposedly "Catholic" relatives would have joined in not-attending, that would have sent a strong message to those involved ... but since we were the only ones who wouldn't attend, we were written off a cultist crackpots.  Everyone else just celebrated and congratulated the "married" couples even when they basically agreed that the marriage was not valid.  They thus became enablers of and accomplices in their sin.

    And I agree that the NO is in a bit of a different category than a religion that has been officially declared by the Church to be outside the Church (e.g., Lutherans, Orthodox, etc.)  NO has some ambiguity because they still profess to be Catholic, and many Conciliars still do have the Catholic faith, although they are in material error.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #17 on: January 24, 2024, 02:42:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 24, 2024, 02:05:02 PM
    The passive attendance at non-Catholic religious functions was something that was tolerated for a serious reason, rather than simply allowed as a matter of course.

    The distinction here is that the Novus Ordo is not merely a non-Catholic religious function, such as a Baptist funeral or a Lutheran wedding, but in fact claims to be and masquerades as Catholic worship.  If it is legitimate Catholic worship, then that's where one should be attending Mass, not an independent, canonically illegal venue.  If it is not legitimate Catholic worship, then (unlike the Lutheran service) it would be a sacrilege.
    .

    This is absurd. Someone who is attending a Novus Ordo funeral or wedding is not attending it as legitimate Catholic worship, but as a non-Catholic service. It is no different from attending a protestant funeral or wedding, if one attends passively the way one would at a protestant service where one is only present to honor the dead and not to worship in common with the ceremony.

    I have never heard of any traditional priest saying it is wrong to attend a Novus Ordo funeral or wedding if one does so passively and out of respect for the family.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #18 on: January 24, 2024, 02:49:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on January 24, 2024, 02:42:53 PM
    ... one is only present to honor the dead and not to worship in common with the ceremony.

    Precisely.  And there's no danger of scandal either, because everyone knows that you're there to honor the dead ... and to offer condolences to their relatives and friends, and no one assumes that everyone present at a funeral or wedding is participating in the religious aspect of the proceedings.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #19 on: January 24, 2024, 02:49:59 PM »
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    • Why does one have to attend the wedding itself?  Why not just the reception?  

    Same for funerals.  Why not just the wake/viewing and/or the graveside service?  

    We've been doing that for decades, and everyone is happy.

    And with the Novus Ordo, we're not talking about a non-Catholic service.  We're talking about an act that CLAIMS to be Catholic worship.

    And why are people so stuck on exceptions when it comes to going to the New Mass?  Are you concerned about offending men, or offending God?
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #20 on: January 24, 2024, 02:58:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on January 24, 2024, 02:42:53 PM
    .

    This is absurd. Someone who is attending a Novus Ordo funeral or wedding is not attending it as legitimate Catholic worship, but as a non-Catholic service. It is no different from attending a protestant funeral or wedding, if one attends passively the way one would at a protestant service where one is only present to honor the dead and not to worship in common with the ceremony.

    I have never heard of any traditional priest saying it is wrong to attend a Novus Ordo funeral or wedding if one does so passively and out of respect for the family.
    I agree with this; however, these NO funerals are an occasion of sin for me because oftentimes I can't help getting angry at the content of the "homilies" for the dearly departed or the lack of prayers for the dead or the comments by either the "priest" or the family member/friend that he/she is in Heaven.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #21 on: January 24, 2024, 03:01:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 24, 2024, 02:49:59 PM
    Why does one have to attend the wedding itself?  Why not just the reception? 

    Same for funerals.  Why not just the wake/viewing and/or the graveside service? 

    We've been doing that for decades, and everyone is happy.

    And with the Novus Ordo, we're not talking about a non-Catholic service.  We're talking about an act that CLAIMS to be Catholic worship.

    And why are people so stuck on exceptions when it comes to going to the New Mass?  Are you concerned about offending men, or offending God?

    You can do that if you'd like, just attend the wake or the reception, but the question is whether it's prohibited to attend NO weddings or funerals.  You beg the question that it is throughout your entire pos.

    Yes, the NO Mass is different, and is less forbidden than a Prot Mass precisely because the people profess the Catholic faith.

    Your last sentence is extremely arrogant.  It's not an "exception" and you absolutely fail to distinguish between a passive presence and active attendance (assisting at the NOM).  God is not offended, except that you're begging the question throughout your post.  If it were something God were offended by, the Traditional Catholics here on CI would not do it, and it's an arrogant slander to claim that they're doing something to offend God out of human respect.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #22 on: January 24, 2024, 03:02:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 24, 2024, 01:09:51 PM
    Just stating facts. It matters for some :cowboy:
    For some of us it is preferred!
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #23 on: January 24, 2024, 03:05:26 PM »
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    • For some reason the phrase "puritanized, autistic, trad weirdos" comes to mind. I wonder why? ::)
    (Thank you 6 million oreos)
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #24 on: January 24, 2024, 03:11:14 PM »
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    I have never heard of any traditional priest saying it is wrong to attend a Novus Ordo funeral or wedding if one does so passively and out of respect for the family.
    Fr Wathen held this view and reiterated it many, many times over the years.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #25 on: January 24, 2024, 03:14:36 PM »
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    It's not an "exception"
    Yes, passive attendance at the new mass, or any non-catholic service, is a canon law exception.  Just like it's a canon law exception to marry a non-catholic.  In former times, one had to get permission.  Nowadays, there's no one to ask permission from, being the Church hierarchy is unorthodox, so people do what they want.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #26 on: January 24, 2024, 03:21:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 24, 2024, 03:14:36 PM
    Yes, passive attendance at the new mass, or any non-catholic service, is a canon law exception.  Just like it's a canon law exception to marry a non-catholic.  In former times, one had to get permission.  Nowadays, there's no one to ask permission from, being the Church hierarchy is unorthodox, so people do what they want.
    For funerals and weddings, not to attend for any reason.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #27 on: January 24, 2024, 03:30:24 PM »
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    For funerals and weddings, not to attend for any reason.
    No.  There is no general allowance for catholics to attend non-catholic services.  Obviously, active attendance is a sin.  Canon Law only permits passive attendance for a good reason, and permission was required.  In pre-V2 times, such permission was typically for politicians to attend state funerals, or some other type of reason.


    It has never been normal for catholics to attend non-catholic services, just for relative's sake.  The reason had to be unique.
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    Online Merry

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #28 on: January 24, 2024, 04:14:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on January 24, 2024, 03:11:14 PM
    Fr Wathen held this view and reiterated it many, many times over the years.
    This is correct.  The Novus Ordo is a sacrilege and a mortal sin, whether said on a Sunday, a Saturday afternoon, or at a wedding, or at a funeral.  It is wrong to go to it no matter the reason, as it is a sin against the Divinity directly.  It is worse than an abortion (and would we sit in to view an abortion?) Where is our faith?  We are required to love God first - "He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me." (Mt. 10:37).

    And in case anyone should recoil from having to choose God over relatives, sometimes a hard thing indeed when it comes to funerals and weddings and nasty family reactions, Our Lord immediately says:  

    "And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me." (Mt. 10:38)

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    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

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    Re: Father Bitzer and Our Lady of the Pillar Chapel Louisville, KY
    « Reply #29 on: January 24, 2024, 05:10:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Merry on January 24, 2024, 04:14:53 PM
    This is correct.  The Novus Ordo is a sacrilege and a mortal sin, whether said on a Sunday, a Saturday afternoon, or at a wedding, or at a funeral.  It is wrong to go to it no matter the reason, as it is a sin against the Divinity directly.  It is worse than an abortion (and would we sit in to view an abortion?) Where is our faith?  We are required to love God first - "He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me." (Mt. 10:37).

    And in case anyone should recoil from having to choose God over relatives, sometimes a hard thing indeed when it comes to funerals and weddings and nasty family reactions, Our Lord immediately says: 

    "And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me." (Mt. 10:38)


    With all due respect to Fr. Wathen, Dimond brothers, et. al., I'll take my Catholic doctrine from Pope St. Pius X and Pope Benedict XV

    § 2. Passive or merely material presence can be tolerated for the sake of honour or civil office, for grave reason approved by the Bishop in case of doubt, at the funerals, weddings, and similar solemnities of non-Catholics, provided danger of perversion and scandal is absent.

    While I understand the perspective that the NO may be considered a sacrilege worse than any protestant service and also that one could argue that neither Pope envisaged the NO when promulgating the code, the plain fact is that they DID promulgate the code with the given wording. So that's what we have to work with.

    The Popes didn't command Catholics to attend non-Catholic services.
    They did not recommend attending them.
    But they did tolerate it.

    What that means in practice is that a reasonably sane, stable-in-their-Faith Catholic can choose to attend cousin Fred's NO funeral. He can also choose to not attend.
    Those that have some kind of scruples over the matter should not attend.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion but this situation is difficult enough, do we really need more self-appointed high-priests of the trad-sanhedrin convicting everyone of mortal sin over debatable points?
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