Author Topic: Fate of Souls of Miscarried Children (Read 6173 times)

Änσnymσus · « **on:** April 02, 2015, 12:50:14 PM »

A woman at my chapel recently has a miscarriage. She was very early on in her pregnancy, maybe 5 or 6 weeks; she had only just found out she was pregnant about a week prior to it happening. What does the Church teach about the fate of the souls of these children, who never had an opportunity for baptism? If a child is miscarried later on in the pregnancy, I know the parents can perform an emergency conditional baptism, but when it is so early on like this, you cannot even do that.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #1 on:** April 02, 2015, 12:54:43 PM »

Quote from: Guest

A woman at my chapel recently has a miscarriage. She was very early on in her pregnancy, maybe 5 or 6 weeks; she had only just found out she was pregnant about a week prior to it happening. What does the Church teach about the fate of the souls of these children, who never had an opportunity for baptism? If a child is miscarried later on in the pregnancy, I know the parents can perform an emergency conditional baptism, but when it is so early on like this, you cannot even do that.

They go to a part of hell called limbo where they are separated from God but are not tormented by fires and demons like the rest of the damned. Of course this is the most common traditional teaching. The Novus Ordo teaches that they are in heaven because they are heretics who do not really believe in original sin.

Stubborn · « **Reply #2 on:** April 02, 2015, 12:58:28 PM »

The souls of unbaptized babies go to Limbo.

Late miscarriages should be baptized using the usual form, but not conditionally.
Conditional baptisms are only for those times when there is doubt about a previous baptism or a previous baptism's validity.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #3 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:04:36 PM »

Quote from: Guest

Quote from: Guest
A woman at my chapel recently has a miscarriage. She was very early on in her pregnancy, maybe 5 or 6 weeks; she had only just found out she was pregnant about a week prior to it happening. What does the Church teach about the fate of the souls of these children, who never had an opportunity for baptism? If a child is miscarried later on in the pregnancy, I know the parents can perform an emergency conditional baptism, but when it is so early on like this, you cannot even do that.

They go to a part of hell called limbo where they are separated from God but are not tormented by fires and demons like the rest of the damned. Of course this is the most common traditional teaching. The Novus Ordo teaches that they are in heaven because they are heretics who do not really believe in original sin.

This. They go to Limbo. A place of Hell where there is no torment. Miscarriage babies live in natural state of calmness. They can't enter heaven because they are not baptized.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #4 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:05:45 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Late miscarriages should be baptized using the usual form, but not conditionally.
Conditional baptisms are only for those times when there is doubt about a previous baptism or a previous baptism's validity.

This is incorrect. Miscarried babies should be baptized conditionally because there is doubt as to whether or not they are still alive (a dead person cannot be baptized). The form changes however.

For what you are talking about, the form is: "If thou art not baptized, I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

For what I am talking about, the form is: "If thou art alive, I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #5 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:07:58 PM »

OP here. I guess I am just having trouble with the idea of how it is just for a person to be damned for not being baptized, when it was impossible for that person to ever have been baptized.

Stubborn · « **Reply #6 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:14:32 PM »

Quote from: Guest

Quote from: Stubborn
Late miscarriages should be baptized using the usual form, but not conditionally.
Conditional baptisms are only for those times when there is doubt about a previous baptism or a previous baptism's validity.

This is incorrect. Miscarried babies should be baptized conditionally because there is doubt as to whether or not they are still alive (a dead person cannot be baptized). The form changes however.

For what you are talking about, the form is: "If thou art not baptized, I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

For what I am talking about, the form is: "If thou art alive, I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

No, that is NOT a conditional baptism. What you are talking about is baptizing one that you do not know is dead or alive - or if the soul has left the body yet or not. In such a case you baptize using the usual form.

But there is no such a form as "If thou art alive, I baptize thee...." least ways not within the Catholic Church, that much you can be absolutely certain of.

BTNYC · « **Reply #7 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:20:18 PM »

Quote from: Guest

OP here. I guess I am just having trouble with the idea of how it is just for a person to be damned for not being baptized, when it was impossible for that person to ever have been baptized.

Simply put, nobody has a "right" to Heaven. Not you, not me, not a newborn or miscarried baby. It is not unjust to withhold that to which the person has no right.

Baptism removes Original Sin. And there can be no question of Baptism of Desire or Baptism of blood in an infant not yet in possession of his rational faculties. A soul that is in a State of Original Sin cannot enter heaven. And, as stated, there is no torment in Limbo, so it's not accurate to say those babies are "damned." The baby is not at fault for his not having been Baptized, and he has committed no actual sins, so there is no punishment meted out to him. That seems perfectly Just to me.

This isn't for you to worry about. Simply trust in God's infinite Mercy and Justice.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #8 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:21:25 PM »

Quote from: Guest

OP here. I guess I am just having trouble with the idea of how it is just for a person to be damned for not being baptized, when it was impossible for that person to ever have been baptized.

Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven. It's Gods mercy as to what actually happens.

MOST people do not get into Heaven and it takes a lot of work to get there.

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #9 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:22:45 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

No, that is NOT a conditional baptism. What you are talking about is baptizing one that you do not know is dead or alive - or if the soul has left the body yet or not. In such a case you baptize using the usual form.

But there is no such a form as "If thou art alive, I baptize thee...." least ways not within the Catholic Church, that much you can be absolutely certain of.

I don't know what to tell you, other than you are just plain wrong. A conditional baptism is any baptism to which a condition is attached. It could be a specific condition like "if thou art not baptized..." or "if thou art alive...", or it could be general condition like "if thou art capable of being baptized..." In any case where there is doubt as to whether or not the person can validly receive the Sacrament, a condition must be attached.

See this pamphlet, from 1959 and which quotes the 1917 Canon Law, which makes it clear: http://www.saintsworks.net/pamphlets/Alana%20M.%20Rosshirt%20-%20How%20to%20Baptize%20in%20Case%20of%20Miscarriage.pdf

Stubborn · « **Reply #10 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:24:12 PM »

Quote from: Guest

OP here. I guess I am just having trouble with the idea of how it is just for a person to be damned for not being baptized, when it was impossible for that person to ever have been baptized.

It is just because the baby died with sin on it's soul, Original Sin.

It is merciful because perhaps were that person to live their life after baptism, they would have died in mortal sin and spent their eternity suffering in hell - only God knows this.

But to the question as to why God took the baby prior to baptism, God only knows.

Stubborn · « **Reply #11 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:33:47 PM »

Quote from: Guest

Quote from: Stubborn
No, that is NOT a conditional baptism. What you are talking about is baptizing one that you do not know is dead or alive - or if the soul has left the body yet or not. In such a case you baptize using the usual form.

But there is no such a form as "If thou art alive, I baptize thee...." least ways not within the Catholic Church, that much you can be absolutely certain of.

I don't know what to tell you, other than you are just plain wrong. A conditional baptism is any baptism to which a condition is attached. It could be a specific condition like "if thou art not baptized..." or "if thou art alive...", or it could be general condition like "if thou art capable of being baptized..." In any case where there is doubt as to whether or not the person can validly receive the Sacrament, a condition must be attached.

See this pamphlet, from 1959 and which quotes the 1917 Canon Law, which makes it clear: http://www.saintsworks.net/pamphlets/Alana%20M.%20Rosshirt%20-%20How%20to%20Baptize%20in%20Case%20of%20Miscarriage.pdf

No, you do not understand why there even is such a thing as a conditional baptism - and it is not "any baptism to which a condition is attached".

Once you understand why the Church permits conditional baptisms but only under extremely strict circuмstances, you will know why it's not simply "any baptism to which a condition is attached".

Änσnymσus · « **Reply #12 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:33:54 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

No, you do not understand why there even is such a thing as a conditional baptism - and it is not "any baptism to which a condition is attached".

Once you understand why the Church permits conditional baptisms but only under extremely strict circuмstances, you will know why it's not simply "any baptism to which a condition is attached".

Quote from: Code of Canon Law, 1917, canon 747

Care should be taken that every fetus born prematurely, no matter at what stage of pregnancy, be baptized absolutely; conditionally, if life is doubtful.

Canon Law itself states that if life is doubtful, then the baptism must be conditional. You are wrong.

Tridentine MT · « **Reply #13 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:44:53 PM »

This is a difficult theme for me - I leave it to God's mercy. He knows best.

Stubborn · « **Reply #14 on:** April 02, 2015, 01:53:36 PM »

Quote from: Guest

Quote from: Stubborn
No, you do not understand why there even is such a thing as a conditional baptism - and it is not "any baptism to which a condition is attached".

Once you understand why the Church permits conditional baptisms but only under extremely strict circuмstances, you will know why it's not simply "any baptism to which a condition is attached".

Quote from: Code of Canon Law, 1917, canon 747
Care should be taken that every fetus born prematurely, no matter at what stage of pregnancy, be baptized absolutely; conditionally, if life is doubtful.

Canon Law itself states that if life is doubtful, then the baptism must be conditional. You are wrong.

A Conditional Baptism (or Confirmation or Holy Orders) is administered when the previous sacrament is doubtful because, we cannot re-baptize (or re-Confirm or re-Ordain) because to do so is a sacrilege. Do you get that?

Since in such cases it is not possible to know for sure, in order to avoid committing sacrilege, the words: "if thou art not yet baptized, I baptize thee in the......" are said.

In the case of miscarriage, you already know the baby was never baptized so you do not baptize conditionally, you baptize using the usual form. If the baby is dead, you are simply baptizing a dead baby, but there is no risk of committing sacrilege.

By virtue of the Church's own teaching, Canon Law's "conditionally" can only mean you are baptizing based on your hope that the baby is alive. But there is no such formula for conditional baptism that says "in case thou art alive, I baptize you....."

Author Topic: Fate of Souls of Miscarried Children (Read 6173 times)

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