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Author Topic: False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass  (Read 3100 times)

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Änσnymσus

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False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
« on: September 29, 2014, 07:26:16 PM »
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  • It just dawned on me recently how pitifully wrong, many of good will it seems, have grossly misinterpreted Pius V's Quo Primum. They think any priest has a right to say the Holy (Latin) Mass anywhere or anytime, as they fancy. They confidently quote Quo Primum:

    "Furthermore... by virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We give and grant in perpetuity that for the singing or reading of (the Pius V Missal) Mass in any church whatsoever this Missal may be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment or censure." (Quo Primum, Pope Saint Pius V, 1570)

    The essential factor they misunderstand, is, in order for a Mass (or Divine Liturgy) to be pleasing in God's sight and beneficial to one's soul; the priest offering it absolutely must have authorization from The Chair of Peter, that is Canonical Mission (jurisdiction to offer the Pius V Missal).

    St. Peter's Successor, the pope, is the center of unity ... so many well-intentioned people are going in 97 different directions (for decades now) thinking they have a right to attend any "Latin Mass" ... of which "get togethers" are undoubtedly odious in God's eyes (sacrileges).  

    The shift in thinking needs to be, not where can I find a Latin Mass, but where can I find the *pope - who is promised to be with the Church until the end of time (de fide). One can get to Heaven without attending Mass, when there is no opportunity to go, yet one could never get to Heaven, as St. Thomas teaches, without being obedient to divinely instituted Papal Authority; in all things.

    *Note: it sure ain't that masonic criminal "Frank", in usurped Rome.


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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #1 on: September 29, 2014, 07:40:35 PM »
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  • Fr. Moderator's list of Latin Masses he sells, is the embodiment of this damning error.


    Offline claudel

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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #2 on: September 29, 2014, 08:21:27 PM »
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  • Both comments above are ridiculous. They confuse two distinct matters: priestly rights and priestly duties. The intrinsic right of a priest to celebrate the True Mass in the form codified by Pius V, whether privately or publicly, is what Quo primum concerns. The right to celebrate a public Mass in a given diocese, however, requires formal incardination (or temporary permission for nondiocesan and visiting priests). This latter is a matter of ecclesiastical discipline, not doctrine.

    But the crisis in the Church, which may reasonably be thought to include unjust exclusion from incardination of Traditional clergy, has led many inexorably to the concept of supplied jurisdiction.

    The fact that Pius V did not mention incardination does not give one the right to assume that he forgot all about it. Indeed, it's absurd to assume any such thing. It is equally absurd to assume that SSPX, independent, and SV priests haven't figured out that they are not incardinated and, furthermore, completely misread Quo primum! I doubt, too, whether even one in twenty laymen who attend an ecclesia supplet Mass are as confused as the OP.

    A far better question than the silly one the OP raised would have been this: what impact, if any, has the power of the Keys had on Quo primum? It would make nonsense of this power if one pontiff could not change a nondogmatic decree of another. So the question is whether any of the postconciliar popes formally acted to make Quo primum a dead letter. Benedict XVI claimed none did, whereas Father Cekada claims Paul VI did. Either way, Summorum pontificuм made the dispute moot—or at least may be said to have done so till Bishop Frank declares it null and void.

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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #3 on: September 29, 2014, 09:31:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: claudel
    Both comments above are ridiculous. They confuse two distinct matters: priestly rights and priestly duties. The intrinsic right of a priest to celebrate the True Mass in the form codified by Pius V, whether privately or publicly, is what Quo primum concerns. The right to celebrate a public Mass in a given diocese, however, requires formal incardination (or temporary permission for nondiocesan and visiting priests). This latter is a matter of ecclesiastical discipline, not doctrine.

    But the crisis in the Church, which may reasonably be thought to include unjust exclusion from incardination of Traditional clergy, has led many inexorably to the concept of supplied jurisdiction.

    The fact that Pius V did not mention incardination does not give one the right to assume that he forgot all about it. Indeed, it's absurd to assume any such thing. It is equally absurd to assume that SSPX, independent, and SV priests haven't figured out that they are not incardinated and, furthermore, completely misread Quo primum! I doubt, too, whether even one in twenty laymen who attend an ecclesia supplet Mass are as confused as the OP.

    A far better question than the silly one the OP raised would have been this: what impact, if any, has the power of the Keys had on Quo primum? It would make nonsense of this power if one pontiff could not change a nondogmatic decree of another. So the question is whether any of the postconciliar popes formally acted to make Quo primum a dead letter. Benedict XVI claimed none did, whereas Father Cekada claims Paul VI did. Either way, Summorum pontificuм made the dispute moot—or at least may be said to have done so till Bishop Frank declares it null and void.


    You wrote:

    "The right to celebrate a public Mass in a given diocese, however, requires formal incardination (or temporary permission for nondiocesan and visiting priests). This latter is a matter of ecclesiastical discipline, not doctrine."



    Reply: How much more contempt of the Papacy can you show then your anarchist post!

    Catholic Order demands a priest to have permission from the lawful hierarchy instituted by Christ (with Peter as its head), to function in the way you are describing. (Please spare me from employing dramatic instance sophisms to avoid this core truth.)

    Also regarding your skewed view on discipline:

    “The pastors and faithful…are bound by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church…If anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has only the office of inspection or direction, but not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church…let him be anathema,” (DZ 1827, 1831).

    Your termed "Traditional clergy" lack canonical mission and could care less, as all know who have observed this carnage for years and years now. They have usually incurred multiple censors for publicly participating in schismatic sects, and hence are forbabe by law to function in any priestly duties until they have these censures removed. Of course that does not stop them. Eternal misery loves company.

    They all seem to disagree with each other and quite often hate each other ... . These "at best vagrants" take the time and money to build large seminaries and not a second to find Peter's promised perpetual successor. They have no Faith.

    3308 Dz 1960 When the divine Founder decreed that the Church be one in faith, and in government, and in communion, He chose Peter and his successors in whom should be the principle and as it were the center of unity. . . . But, order of bishops, as Christ commanded, is to be regarded as joined with Peter, if it be subject to Peter and obey him; otherwise it necessarily descends into a confused and disorderly crowd. For the proper preservation of faith and the unity of mutual participation, it is not enough to hold higher offices for the sake of honor, nor to have general supervision, but there is absolute need of true authority and a supreme authority which the entire community should obey. . . . Hence those special expressions of the ancients regarding St. Peter, which brilliantly proclaim him as placed in the highest degree of dignity and authority. They everywhere called him prince of the assembly of disciples, prince of the holy apostles, leader of that choir, mouthpiece of all the apostles, head of that family, superintendent of the whole world, first among the apostles, pillar of the Church. . . .

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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #4 on: September 29, 2014, 10:47:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: claudel

    But the crisis in the Church, which may reasonably be thought to include unjust exclusion from incardination of Traditional clergy ... .


    That's totally unreasonable. You are attempting to argue that the string of Heretical Antipopes are actually Christ's Vicars on earth with authority (jurisdiction)!

    And that "clergy" who were spawned from entities that despise the Church's solemnly defined teaching requiring a papal mandate for consecrations are "Traditional".

    You are the crisis.



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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #5 on: September 30, 2014, 12:56:07 AM »
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  • "NO CATHOLIC PRIEST, WHETHER ORDER PRIEST OR DIOCESAN PRIEST, NEEDS ANYBODY'S PERMISSION TO CONTINUE OFFERING THE TRADITIONAL LATIN MASS OF ST. PIUS V, ANYWHERE AND ANYTIME, WITH OR WITHOUT PEOPLE IN ATTENDANCE." (FATHER GOMMAR A. DE PAUW, FOUNDER-PRESIDENT OF
    THE CATHOLIC TRADITIONALIST MOVEMENT, INC)


    The well-known Fr. De Pauw, who many have called a founder of the "Traditional Mass Movement". statement, no Catholic priest... needs anybody's permission (not even a Bishop's) to (say the Latin Mass) anywhere anytime ..."[/i], is contrary to the Church's teaching that a priest to do anything, must work through the One True Hierarchy, established on St. Peter and His Successors. That is he must have Canonical Mission (permission) to offer any Sacraments.

    This type of false interpretation of St. Pius V's Quo Primum, has caused chaos for decades in what its adherents have coined, the Traditional" Movement.

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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #6 on: September 30, 2014, 01:20:23 AM »
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  • Whoever you are, you miss the point about why traditionalists have the Traditional Mass and sacraments. The New Rite is put forth in usurpation of the Traditional Roman Rite. The New Rite has barren fruit, while the Traditional Roman Rite still brings forth good fruit as it always has. It is such a tragedy that so many in the Conciliar Church deny the obvious and do not see the problem right before their very eyes. They still don't get! There is a serious state of emergency and crisis in the Church that still persists, and many just do not see the root causes of the problems.

    Offline poche

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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #7 on: September 30, 2014, 01:23:31 AM »
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  • Today any priest can say the Latin Mass. The only disunity would be if someone were to disobey the moto proprio by trying  to obstruct its celebration.

     http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html


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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #8 on: September 30, 2014, 06:47:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    Today any priest can say the Latin Mass. The only disunity would be if someone were to disobey the moto proprio by trying  to obstruct its celebration.

     http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html


    I keep forgetting that you guys/girls actually recognize the Freemasons who have stolen the Church's property as your authority.


    Brother John of the Cleft Rock (14th c.): "Towards the end of the world, tyrants and hostile mobs will rob the Church and the clergy of all their possessions and will afflict and martyr them. Those who heap the most abuse upon them will be held in high esteem. At that time, the Pope with his cardinals will have to flee Rome in tragic circuмstances to a place where they will be unknown. The Pope will die a cruel death in his exile. The sufferings of the Church will be much greater than at any previous time in her history. But God will raise a holy Pope, and the Angels will rejoice. Enlightened by God, this man will rebuild almost the whole world through his holiness. He will lead everyone to the true Faith. Everywhere, the fear of God, virtue, and good morals will prevail. He will lead all erring sheep back to the fold, and there shall be one faith, one law, one rule of life, and one baptism on earth. All men will love each other and do good, and all quarrels and wars will cease."

    --------------------------------------------------

    "In addition, by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define: that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:


    (I) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless. .... (Catholics) shall be permitted at any time to withdraw with impunity from obedience and devotion to those thus promoted or elevated and to avoid them as *warlocks, heathens, publicans, and heresiarchs... " (cuм ex Apostolatus Officio, Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul IV, 15th February 1559 - Roman Bullarium)

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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #9 on: September 30, 2014, 08:08:22 AM »
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  • Two things need saying about the OP "guest" posting these ludicrous comments.

    (1) He rolls his own religion—in his case, a type modeled on papal-absolutist dogmatic sedevacantism. Our guest doubtless knows that open espousal of dogmatic sedevacantism will get his butt booted out the door, and so he hides in the Anonymous subforum, there to play Pope for a Day to his heart's content.

    (2) He proves that he's a functional ignoramus by shouting (i.e., boldfacing) everything he lacks the learning or capacity to demonstrate. Alas, he's not alone hereabouts in this regard. Pounding the table when one has nothing else to pound is a time-honored practice—and not only among lawyers.

    It is particularly intriguing to see Honored Guest post/scream a comment he claims derives from Brother John of the Cleft Rock. Would that our guest would be inspired to give himself the screen name Brother Someone of the Cleft Frontal Lobe.

    —claudel

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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #10 on: September 30, 2014, 09:12:38 AM »
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    I keep forgetting that you guys/girls actually recognize the Freemasons who have stolen the Church's property as your authority.


    Yeah, we and others like us are known as Catholics.

    Furthermore, Catholic is what we'll remain until someone a lot smarter than you demonstrates that you have the God-given authority to declare that the papal elections of the past fifty years were formally deficient and that the conciliar popes are genuine formal heretics. Good luck with both, especially the latter, since the interior moral and doctrinal state of a pope, as every saint and Church-approved theologian in Church history has declared, is a matter that no layman or cleric—not even you and your best pals—has the authority to judge.

    When will you and others like you wake up to the fact that popes are not immune from the same consequences of original sin that dog the rest of mankind? Election by a legitimate conclave does not make the one elected immune from decisions and actions that are pointless, weak, or downright wicked. Your juvenile and ignorant notion that a bad pope is ipso facto not pope is about as un-Catholic as it's possible for any notion to be.

    —claudel


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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #11 on: September 30, 2014, 09:19:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    "NO CATHOLIC PRIEST, WHETHER ORDER PRIEST OR DIOCESAN PRIEST, NEEDS ANYBODY'S PERMISSION TO CONTINUE OFFERING THE TRADITIONAL LATIN MASS OF ST. PIUS V, ANYWHERE AND ANYTIME, WITH OR WITHOUT PEOPLE IN ATTENDANCE." (FATHER GOMMAR A. DE PAUW, FOUNDER-PRESIDENT OF
    THE CATHOLIC TRADITIONALIST MOVEMENT, INC)


    The well-known Fr. De Pauw, who many have called a founder of the "Traditional Mass Movement". statement, no Catholic priest... needs anybody's permission (not even a Bishop's) to (say the Latin Mass) anywhere anytime ..."[/i], is contrary to the Church's teaching that a priest to do anything, must work through the One True Hierarchy, established on St. Peter and His Successors. That is he must have Canonical Mission (permission) to offer any Sacraments.

    This type of false interpretation of St. Pius V's Quo Primum, has caused chaos for decades in what its adherents have coined, the Traditional" Movement.



    Tradition In Action has always promoted Fr. De Pauw's stuff. When did he die?

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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #12 on: September 30, 2014, 09:50:09 AM »
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    Note: it sure ain't that masonic criminal "Frank", in usurped Rome.


     :applause:

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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #13 on: September 30, 2014, 10:07:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: Guest
    Quote from: Guest
    I keep forgetting that you guys/girls actually recognize the Freemasons who have stolen the Church's property as your authority.


    Yeah, we and others like us are known as Catholics.

    Furthermore, Catholic is what we'll remain until someone a lot smarter than you demonstrates that you have the God-given authority to declare that the papal elections of the past fifty years were formally deficient and that the conciliar popes are genuine formal heretics. Good luck with both, especially the latter, since the interior moral and doctrinal state of a pope, as every saint and Church-approved theologian in Church history has declared, is a matter that no layman or cleric—not even you and your best pals—has the authority to judge.

    When will you and others like you wake up to the fact that popes are not immune from the same consequences of original sin that dog the rest of mankind? Election by a legitimate conclave does not make the one elected immune from decisions and actions that are pointless, weak, or downright wicked. Your juvenile and ignorant notion that a bad pope is ipso facto not pope is about as un-Catholic as it's possible for any notion to be.

    —claudel


    You don't have to be smart.  They wear the symbols, they give each other their 'secret' greetings, they talk and write in the philosophy of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.  Until the past 2 decades or so, you could get lists from any Masonic lodge of membership, burgeoning with clergy, with many cardinals.  In the "old days" these cardinals were notorious as being masons.

    Until you LEARN about Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, you are doomed to ignorance. Study it. Please.  It's all right there in plain sight.  That's one of their mottos "hiding in plain sight".  

    But what do I know?  Other than closely studying Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ for 10 years.  Here, read this from Iuvenalis, one of Cathinfo's members, a former Freemason.  Read it all the way through.
    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=20477&min=51&num=3  

    Then do a little studying.  It's horrifying but true what has happened in Rome.

    Offline claudel

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    False Understanding of Quo Primums "Right" to say Latin Mass
    « Reply #14 on: September 30, 2014, 11:04:23 AM »
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    You don't have to be smart.


    Oh? Someone has to be, considering the rubbish you're posting.

    Quote from: Guest
    Until you LEARN about Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, you are doomed to ignorance. Study it. Please. It's all right there in plain sight. That's one of their mottos "hiding in plain sight".  

    But what do I know?  Other than closely studying Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ for 10 years.  Here, read this from Iuvenalis, one of Cathinfo's members, a former Freemason.  Read it all the way through.
    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=20477&min=51&num=3  

    Then do a little studying. It's horrifying but true what has happened in Rome.


    You are yet another Internet Scholar—that is, not a scholar at all—giving arrogant and smug orders to somebody who has read rings around you.

    Intellectual modesty is the foundation of all true learning. You have shown yourself to be immodest, unlearned, and too bunny-rabbit timid even to post your pretentious nonsense under a proper screen name.

    Please pack up your boldface type and get lost.