First, I want to state that I am truly sorry for what has happened to you. If you need assistance, please let me know and my wife and I will see what we can do.1. Is quite something. Most people today do not have fully trad family members.
Things my wife and I do:
1. We must meet the parents, children and any other family members who may interact with our daughter/son on a regular basis, should they marry. Not only must we meet, we must engage in several meetings/visits.
2. As Mark79 remarked, we will observe to pick up on any false empathy.
3. We will review any online persona.
4. We will meet friends.
5. We will observe how the suitor interacts with our son/daughter and then also observe when they don't think they are being observed.
6. We will discuss gaslighting with our son/daughter and the tell tale signs.
7. We will discuss suitors who may pressure our child to do something out of character.
8. We will observe their spiritual life.
9. We will see how the suitor reacts when we deny something or some action (this was the big sign for my sister-in-law that was missed).
10. We will always go with our instinct.
11. We will pray.
12. We will seek to know their financial state and future plans.
13. We will watch if many people like that person and the reasons behind it. What do they see that we do/don't see? ** This also came up recently when we discovered a man liked by all is actually an alcoholic, porn addicted, wife abuser. Folks referred to him as a "teddy bear", but my wife's instincts kicked in and she told me to stay clear. I started to observe and also got the "creepy vibes".
14. Any signs that the suitor is trying to isolate will also be noted.
15. And, don't think a background check is going too far- especially with porn addiction and child abuse so rampant. I am not messing around.
First, I want to state that I am truly sorry for what has happened to you. If you need assistance, please let me know and my wife and I will see what we can do.Kudos for completeness!
Things my wife and I do:
1. We must meet the parents, children and any other family members who may interact with our daughter/son on a regular basis, should they marry. Not only must we meet, we must engage in several meetings/visits.
2. As Mark79 remarked, we will observe to pick up on any false empathy.
3. We will review any online persona.
4. We will meet friends.
5. We will observe how the suitor interacts with our son/daughter and then also observe when they don't think they are being observed.
6. We will discuss gaslighting with our son/daughter and the tell tale signs.
7. We will discuss suitors who may pressure our child to do something out of character.
8. We will observe their spiritual life.
9. We will see how the suitor reacts when we deny something or some action (this was the big sign for my sister-in-law that was missed).
10. We will always go with our instinct.
11. We will pray.
12. We will seek to know their financial state and future plans.
13. We will watch if many people like that person and the reasons behind it. What do they see that we do/don't see? ** This also came up recently when we discovered a man liked by all is actually an alcoholic, porn addicted, wife abuser. Folks referred to him as a "teddy bear", but my wife's instincts kicked in and she told me to stay clear. I started to observe and also got the "creepy vibes".
14. Any signs that the suitor is trying to isolate will also be noted.
15. And, don't think a background check is going too far- especially with porn addiction and child abuse so rampant. I am not messing around.
1. Is quite something. Most people today do not have fully trad family members.We are observing how everyone interacts and treats each other. I want to see how my daughter's suitor treats his mother. I want to see how my son's potential wife acts towards her father.
We are observing how everyone interacts and treats each other. I want to see how my daughter's suitor treats his mother. I want to see how my son's potential wife acts towards her father.So that would mean your children could only marry locally?
So that would mean your children could only marry locally?No, it wouldn't. But, that is not the topic of this thread. If you would like to discuss non-local courting, then start a new thread or contact me directly.
I married an abuser (physical and verbal). He also went on to abuse our child (intense exercise/withholding of food for 10+ hrs, verbal abuse). Red flags during courtship I ignored:Wow sorry to hear that. My parents got married within 2 months so I don't think 1 is a red flag (personal bias) but those other 5 definitely stand out. Your last comment also shows you willingly ignored it and that you didn't have your parents to guide you.
1. Super fast courtship (wanted to marry in less than a month)
2. Got drunk at restaurant on second date
3. Made vulgar jokes
4. Was fixated on my family's financial situation (ability to generate income/wealth)
5. Insulted my grandfather who he had never met (called him an "old jew" even though he was a lifelong old world Catholic)
6. Wanted me to talk to his family on the phone (who I hadn't met yet) to prove I was real "so they won't think I'm a fαɢɢօt").
It should be noted I was not a Christian at the time so I didn't have faith and morals to guide me. The biggest factor in why I married someone that I already knew was not a good man--my father had been a violent drunk and by comparison I thought I could handle this guy.
I married an abuser (physical and verbal). He also went on to abuse our child (intense exercise/withholding of food for 10+ hrs, verbal abuse). Red flags during courtship I ignored:
1. Super fast courtship (wanted to marry in less than a month)
2. Got drunk at restaurant on second date
3. Made vulgar jokes
4. Was fixated on my family's financial situation (ability to generate income/wealth)
5. Insulted my grandfather who he had never met (called him an "old jew" even though he was a lifelong old world Catholic)
6. Wanted me to talk to his family on the phone (who I hadn't met yet) to prove I was real "so they won't think I'm a fαɢɢօt").
It should be noted I was not a Christian at the time so I didn't have faith and morals to guide me. The biggest factor in why I married someone that I already knew was not a good man--my father had been a violent drunk and by comparison I thought I could handle this guy.
There is a book called All for the Love of Mothers, by the author Lisbeth Burger, published by Lepanto Press, which addresses this issue very well. It would be best if parents read it before hand and decide if their daughter is ready to read it. It is very good and very educational regarding how to recognize a good and not so good man.
At the same time, we do have to be careful about women who report "abusive" husbands ... in general ... since out of the 10 cases of "divorce" I've seen among Trads, in 9 out of the 10, i.e. in all but one case, it was actually the WIFE who was abusive and then falsely accused the husband of abuse simply for not succuмbing to her attempts to control him by nagging and other forms of abuse. Just like with racial matters, where it's considered impossible for a Black person to be "racist", there's this bias that it's ALWAYS men who are abusive, if not physically, then emotionally and verbally. I know some women who subject their husbands and children to veritable Chinese water torture with nagging, self-absorption, attempts to control through these means, etc. ... and then when others around her do not submit to these attempts to control, it is SHE who makes the allegation of abuse and "controlling behavior" (aka not submitting to her control = the husband being controlling) ... paying no attention whatsoever for a wife to ultimately submit to her husband in the event of any disagreements, barring some matter of conscience or faith. These allegations then very quickly escalate, during divorce proceedings, to accusations of physical abuse, at least toward the children, when in most of the cases the mother was far more physical in disciplining the children than the husband was, but would call out every spanking administered by the husband as "abuse" in the legal arena, while paying no mind to slapping the kids up herself. Men can be subjected to emotional and psychological abuse, and often are ... as even Sacred Scripture calls out in a few spots.People seem to think that women are sunshine and rainbows, and can’t do no wrong. It’s even conditioned in us at a young age, that girls are sweet angelic beings. The number of female acquaintances had in my life who backstabbed me are numerous. Of course men can do the same but they usually behave petty like women and are very insecure.
Unfortunately, I'm rather cynical now regarding claims of abuse from women, since I've seen this same thing play out nearly double-digit times now, with the exact same script each and every time.
I've also, of course, know some men who treated their wives like crap, but, strangely, those wives typically did not end up divorcing their husbands. It's the ones who were in fact the ACTUAL ABUSERS who ended up suing for divorce.
Generally speaking, however, unless a woman is dealing with a relatively extreme and rare deviant, if she could find it within herself to recognize her obligation of obedience, and very respectfully defer to her husband in all things that they disagree on, other than very respectfully matters of conscience, referred to a priest to adjudicate ... there are actually few men who would not cherish such a woman. In fact, such a women WOULD in fact ironically end up taking control of the husband, since her requests would end up being received by the husband as if they were commands ... and would be a much more effective way of establishing "control" than the typical disobedience, disrespect, and the nagging. Husbands resent that nonsense, and push back on it, and in many cases, having to listen to that form of psychological torture is what causes them to lash out themselves.
In this regard, the men also have to look out for the signs and the red flags. I believe that the best way to discern this is to watch the interaction between the young lady's parents. If her mother has had this habit of "wearing the pants" in the family and telling the husband what to do, then the young lady will enter the marriage with precisely that expectation also, that she would run things, and will not have it any other way, nor will it register to her that it's not the right order of things. Look out for vanity, being high maintenance, self absorption in all its forms, lack of generosity ... and keep an eye on the mother, and how she treats her husband, i.e. her father. If you see any of those flags, run, don't walk, but run as quickly as possible in the opposite direction. If, on the other hand, you see a mother who's respectful and obedient to her husband, and then the young lady herself shows signs of self-sacrifice, giving up what she wants to please others, etc. ... she could be an absolute gem.
…At the end of the day, you chose to marry your husband for a reason and maybe finding the good qualities might change how you view him.From my bad boy days in college I recall a quote from the secondmost intelligent woman I have ever met. In discussing relationships, she said, "We end up damning men for the qualities that attracted us in the first place."
No, it wouldn't. But, that is not the topic of this thread. If you would like to discuss non-local courting, then start a new thread or contact me directly.It seems pretty relevant. How would your list play out if the relationship was long distance?
It seems pretty relevant. How would your list play out if the relationship was long distance?It would be the same. 3 out of 5 in my family had long distant relationships. All of it was relevant and all included interaction with family. Planes, trains, automobiles.... people travel.
This is for parents of daughters:We teach our older children the red flags and what narcissistic personality disorder is. Boys also have to be aware so as to avoid marrying the wrong woman. Especially we talk to them about people seeming very agreeable and ‘love bombing’ you then showing their true colours later on. That’s why it’s important to spend a lot of time together before deciding to marry.
In a recent post on divorce someone brought up a situation that seems almost unbelievable. The question was brought up: why would a woman marry someone like that...did they ignore the red flags?
How many of you teach your daughters the red flags? What do you tell them to look out for?
Everyone knows about physical violence. But hardly anyone discusses emotional or mental abuse. It is a thing. I was that woman who posted that situation. My husband never laid hands on me. Was I less abused?
I don't want this to be a discussion of what happened to me. I want this to be a discussion of what parents are teaching their daughters to look out for. Because these men aren't obvious. They are very charming. They reel in everyone--siblings, parents, friends.
What would you suggest as red flags in such a man?
We teach our older children the red flags and what narcissistic personality disorder is. Boys also have to be aware so as to avoid marrying the wrong woman. Especially we talk to them about people seeming very agreeable and ‘love bombing’ you then showing their true colours later on. That’s why it’s important to spend a lot of time together before deciding to marry.Other personality disorders are also dangerous to Catholic homelife.
Wow sorry to hear that. My parents got married within 2 months so I don't think 1 is a red flag (personal bias) but those other 5 definitely stand out. Your last comment also shows you willingly ignored it and that you didn't have your parents to guide you.Yes I agree because my sister, who grew up in the same abusive household as me, married 2.5 months after meeting her husband. They have been together 26 years. But in my case it was 3 weeks in and he was pushing marriage. And I mean pushing.
I guess at this point you can only carry the Cross, I hope things get better, starving a child is horrific.
Yes I agree because my sister, who grew up in the same abusive household as me, married 2.5 months after meeting her husband. They have been together 26 years. But in my case it was 3 weeks in and he was pushing marriage. And I mean pushing.My goodness, you have been through so much. God bless you. You’ll be in my prayers.
And to Lads point, yes I thought I could withstand his crudeness the way I took my father's beatings without crying. I trained myself to not flinch or cry when Dad hit me so as to deny him that pleasure. I would stare blankly at him. When I became a teenager, I would attack him back and it helped a bit. So, this fellow, as I said, seemed manageable. I never dreamed he would turn his cruelty on our child when he realized he couldn't upset me. My children are my weak spot.
Other personality disorders are also dangerous to Catholic homelife.Yes you’re right. Good to be aware. With enough time observing someone these types of disorders will become apparent. Obviously in some cases a person may know they have a problem eg OCD and be trying to recover. That doesn’t automatically make them to be avoided. Depends on the situation.
We have already alluded to sociopathic and narcissistic personality disorders.
Borderline personality disorder also warrants special attention. Often undiagnosed or misdiagnosed, it is likely that BPD has a prevalence of about 6% in the USA population.
Hysterical personality disorder, obsessive-compulsive personality disorders, and also the affective psychiatric disorders (bipolar, manic, depressive,et al.) and thought disorders (schizophrenia)… similarly dangerous to homelife.
Yes I agree because my sister, who grew up in the same abusive household as me, married 2.5 months after meeting her husband. They have been together 26 years. But in my case it was 3 weeks in and he was pushing marriage. And I mean pushing.I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through. I think if you’ve grown up in an abusive home, as you did, it may be harder to recognise the red flags in a potential partner. What do you think?
And to Lads point, yes I thought I could withstand his crudeness the way I took my father's beatings without crying. I trained myself to not flinch or cry when Dad hit me so as to deny him that pleasure. I would stare blankly at him. When I became a teenager, I would attack him back and it helped a bit. So, this fellow, as I said, seemed manageable. I never dreamed he would turn his cruelty on our child when he realized he couldn't upset me. My children are my weak spot.
Planes, trains, automobiles.... people travel.Some do, some don't. My mother and my MIL have only ever met once, at our wedding. It was certainly out of her comfort zone to travel, but she did for that occasion. My family never met my FIL because FIL would not travel. And it's not just one-sided. My mother doesn't like to travel either, but she had the advantage of the wedding being local for her. I don't exclude myself from this trend, buy my reasons are different. While I agree with your list in theory, I just can't picture it playing out on a practical level for a long-distance relationship, especially if the families are not both Traditional Catholic.
Let's not forget that men are sometimes abused by their wives. Both physical and emotional abuse.That’s true. It’s less common for women to physically abuse their husbands than it is vice versa but it does happen. I think women emotionally abusing husbands is more common. Something that is not talked about enough. As well as women using child custody threats to make a man stay in relationship.
Some do, some don't. My mother and my MIL have only ever met once, at our wedding. It was certainly out of her comfort zone to travel, but she did for that occasion. My family never met my FIL because FIL would not travel. And it's not just one-sided. My mother doesn't like to travel either, but she had the advantage of the wedding being local for her. I don't exclude myself from this trend, buy my reasons are different. While I agree with your list in theory, I just can't picture it playing out on a practical level for a long-distance relationship, especially if the families are not both Traditional Catholic.Every situation is different and the list was not meant to be a "catch-all" response. I was providing what our family does to pick up on red flags and to promote a good and holy match for marriage. I would encourage all to take what works for your family from the list and then add/subtract/modify or, create an entirely new list. The goal is to help in the success of a good and holy marriage.
Let's not forget that men are sometimes abused by their wives. Both physical and emotional abuse.Yes a female family member of mine threatened to "Andrea Yates" her children if her husband didn't quit his job and move to ICA in Idaho. He gave in and her mental illness charade didn't end there. She staged a nervous breakdown when Francis was elected so they could go SV. Then she was possessed when she got tired of the trad life and wanted to wear pants again. He always caved and now they live a comfortable, non-Catholic life in the midwest.