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Author Topic: Email from Fr. MacDonald  (Read 8011 times)

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Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2022, 08:51:43 AM »
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  • Let’s focus on Christ the King and make reparations for our sins. 

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #46 on: October 31, 2022, 08:37:15 AM »
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  • 1st. Fr. Hewko has done lasting damage to his own credibility (Pfeiffer) so why should anyone care about his opinions?
    2nd. Why did Fr. MacDonald think it necessary to even respond?
    3rd. Why did you, OP, think it a good idea to post this publicly? Do the sheep really need to see how pathetic their self-proclaimed shepherds are? Do we need more titillating infighting to occupy our time? Is it going to bring ANYONE closer to Heaven?
     
    Well I personally found it useful because I was not familiar with the issue and I was not aware of Fr Hewko' s issue.


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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #47 on: October 31, 2022, 12:56:58 PM »
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  • Either we are truly traditional Catholics who defend Tradition against a cursed New Mass or we are not. If we defend grace in the New Mass then we are no better +Fellay who signed that all the New Sacraments are legitimately promulgated, which was a scandal at the time. Yet this grace in the New Mass nonsense is simply a regurgitated version of that.
    In the May 5, 1988 protocol that was signed by Archbishop Lefebvre and withdrawn the next day due to the delaying tactics for the episcopal consecrations:

    4. We declare moreover that we will recognize the validity of the sacrifice of the Mass and of the sacraments celebrated with the intention of doing what the Church does and according to the rites in the typical editions of the missal and rituals of the sacraments promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.

    So the new rites are recognized as valid by Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX as long as they are validly celebrated according to the typical editions. However, to my knowledge, no SSPX priest or publication has publicly said that it is OK to attend the New Mass. It seems that Bishop Williamson and the Resistance faction associated with him are even more liberal with regards to the New Mass.

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #48 on: October 31, 2022, 01:12:09 PM »
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  • In the May 5, 1988 protocol that was signed by Archbishop Lefebvre and withdrawn the next day due to the delaying tactics for the episcopal consecrations:

    4. We declare moreover that we will recognize the validity of the sacrifice of the Mass and of the sacraments celebrated with the intention of doing what the Church does and according to the rites in the typical editions of the missal and rituals of the sacraments promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.

    So the new rites are recognized as valid by Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX as long as they are validly celebrated according to the typical editions. However, to my knowledge, no SSPX priest or publication has publicly said that it is OK to attend the New Mass. It seems that Bishop Williamson and the Resistance faction associated with him are even more liberal with regards to the New Mass.

    Archbishop Lefebvre only admitted to validity. Everyone should know that validity does NOT equal grace (see the Church's teaching on attendance at VALID Orthodox sacraments that nevertheless are not allowed).  See also here for how +W and Johnson are wrong on this issue according to Church teaching. https://fsspx.news/en/content/32569

    I've been around long enough to recall when both +W and Johnson used to say the opposite of what they are saying about grace in the New Mass. It's actually well docuмented, particularly in +W's case. Maybe the fight has gone out of him? 

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #49 on: October 31, 2022, 01:14:27 PM »
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  • Well I personally found it useful because I was not familiar with the issue and I was not aware of Fr Hewko' s issue.

    L'Abbe Hewko seems a bit schizophrenic, when on the one hand he declares that, "We have to distance ourselves from these (False Resistance) bishops and wait for a better day," but on the other hand he attampta to collaborate with them by receiving delegation to perform confirmations and making requests for holy oils.

    'Tis for thee, but not for me.

    By his own principles, musn't his own faithful should now suspect him of attempting to subvert the true resistance, and place it under the power of compromisers? 

    Moreover, they must now abstain from all Abbe Hewko Masses, and have nothing to do with him.

    Meanwhile, Abbe Hewko solicits funds for a seminary, built for candidates who will have no bishop to ordain them, and an absentee rector to form them.

    "We must trust in the providence of God (like Abbe Pfeiffer did)," they will no doubt be told (as though today's circuмstances were not indicative of God's will).

    Does this sounds like a re-run of Bostom, Ky.

    Perhaps "God's providence" will manifest itself in a similar way as well (i.e., "Msgr" Hewko) as it allegedly did for Abbe Pfeiffer?

    So there are no faithful bishops left in the world (an opinion which comes perilously close to implicit denial of the dogma of indefectability), and now the world is down to two priests: F
    rère Arizaga (a Benedictine who spends more time wantering the face of the earth than Cain from Kung Fu) and Fr. Ruiz.





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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #50 on: October 31, 2022, 01:29:28 PM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre only admitted to validity. Everyone should know that validity does NOT equal grace (see the Church's teaching on attendance at VALID Orthodox sacraments that nevertheless are not allowed).  See also here for how +W and Johnson are wrong on this issue according to Church teaching. https://fsspx.news/en/content/32569

    I've been around long enough to recall when both +W and Johnson used to say the opposite of what they are saying about grace in the New Mass. It's actually well docuмented, particularly in +W's case. Maybe the fight has gone out of him?

    Interesting.

    I have a task for you:

    1) Please quote Williamson or Johnson denying grace passes to well-disposed communicants.  J
    ohnson has 10,000 posts on this forum alone, and Williamson has 7 volumes of books and countless internet sermons and conferences, so unless you are completely full of shit, backing your contentions shouldn't be difficult.

    2) Please also quote either contending that Orthodox sacraments are allowed (outside the case of necessity).

    3) The article you link pertains to the new rite of Mass, not the matter at hand (i.e., the passage of grace to well disposed communicants). 

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #51 on: October 31, 2022, 01:38:10 PM »
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  • Where is Sean anyway? 

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #52 on: October 31, 2022, 02:00:16 PM »
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  • Interesting.

    I have a task for you:

    1) Please quote Williamson or Johnson denying grace passes to well-disposed communicants.  J
    ohnson has 10,000 posts on this forum alone, and Williamson has 7 volumes of books and countless internet sermons and conferences, so unless you are completely full of shit, backing your contentions shouldn't be difficult.

    2) Please also quote either contending that Orthodox sacraments are allowed (outside the case of necessity).

    3) The article you link pertains to the new rite of Mass, not the matter at hand (i.e., the passage of grace to well disposed communicants).
    I have zero interest in doing your homework for you. If you don't know where to look the sspx archives are a great starting place. You are perhaps new to tradition? Otherwise these requests make no sense. 

    But in the interest of being helpful, please see His Excellency's EC #387, in which he states “Take for instance the Novus Ordo Mass. The New Rite as a whole so diminishes the expression of essential Catholic truths...that it is as a whole so bad that no priest should use it, nor Catholic attend it. ... f I say that the new Mass must always be avoided, I am telling the truth ....” 

    But even more plainly said by His Excellency was in a recording wherein he notes that while valid it is ILLICIT. Nothing illicit can give grace. He calls the New Mass "intrinsically evil" and that we must not attend. https://youtu.be/f0gV0qyZN50

    The new Rite of Mass is evil according to His Excellency. Also according to Trent. Also according to +Lefebvre. 

    There is no defense for His Excellency's change of mind on this subject. He is too well educated and too well-formed to make this mistake. Either he was lying before when he said to the avoid the New Mass or he is lying now saying people can attend. But no man can serve two masters as Vigano says with respect to the New Mass and the Old Mass.


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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #53 on: October 31, 2022, 02:01:55 PM »
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  • So there are no faithful bishops left in the world (an opinion which comes perilously close to implicit denial of the dogma of indefectability), and now the world is down to two priests: F
    rère Arizaga (a Benedictine who spends more time wantering the face of the earth than Cain from Kung Fu) and Fr. Ruiz.

    Actually, if Hewko is attempting to collaborate with the same bishops he denounces, and Arizaga and Ruiz are collaborating with him, then all three are logically to be red lighted (which means there are no acceptable priests or bishops left in the world and the church has vanished).

    Where do I sign up?

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #54 on: October 31, 2022, 02:13:22 PM »
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  •   Either he was lying before when he said to the avoid the New Mass or he is lying now saying people can attend.
    AFAIK +Williamson has never been omniscient, so he may have simply changed his mind. I disagree with HE's opinion on this, and other things, but I would be cautious in declaring him to be mendacious.

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #55 on: October 31, 2022, 02:39:28 PM »
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  • I have zero interest in doing your homework for you. If you don't know where to look the sspx archives are a great starting place. You are perhaps new to tradition? Otherwise these requests make no sense.

    But in the interest of being helpful, please see His Excellency's EC #387, in which he states “Take for instance the Novus Ordo Mass. The New Rite as a whole so diminishes the expression of essential Catholic truths...that it is as a whole so bad that no priest should use it, nor Catholic attend it. ... f I say that the new Mass must always be avoided, I am telling the truth ....”

    But even more plainly said by His Excellency was in a recording wherein he notes that while valid it is ILLICIT. Nothing illicit can give grace. He calls the New Mass "intrinsically evil" and that we must not attend.

    The new Rite of Mass is evil according to His Excellency. Also according to Trent. Also according to +Lefebvre.

    There is no defense for His Excellency's change of mind on this subject. He is too well educated and too well-formed to make this mistake. Either he was lying before when he said to the avoid the New Mass or he is lying now saying people can attend. But no man can serve two masters as Vigano says with respect to the New Mass and the Old Mass.

    Most of this post is stuck in the same rut: Hewko discussing the rite, where Johnson is discussing the passage of grace.

    It begins by quoting Williamson saying the new Mass must always be avoided, but overlooks qualifying that remark with the objective-subjective distinction (i.e., nobody should go to it, but there can be subjective reasons which permit it), as it necessarily must.

    Let's let Greg Taylor explain it to us by quoting...Bishop Williamson (1996, nearly 20 years before Mahopac):

    "When Archbishop Lefebvre said it [i.e., that Catholics can satisfy the Sunday obligation by attending the new Mass], he meant that the Novus Ordo Mass is objectively and intrinsically evil, but Catholics unaware of, or disbelieving in, that evil, because of the rite’s official promulgation, may subjectively fulfil their Sunday duty by attending the new Mass.”
    https://thecatacombs.org/showthread.php?tid=4402 

    What could be clearer?

    We have Taylor quote mining in an attempt to highlight an alleged contradiction betwen Williamson and Lefebvre, but he ends up vindicating Williamson unwittingly, by explaining Williamson and Lefebvre see it the same way, per Williamson's 1996 explanation.

    The post mentions grace once, but immediately conflates it with the rite (yet again), calling it "illicit," and concluding that "nothing illicit can give grace."  Need I point out ad nauseum that Johnson is speaking of the sacrament, while you continually lapse back to speaking of the rite?

    Do you think Vigano believes noconciliarists receive grace from Holy Communion?





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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #56 on: October 31, 2022, 02:55:50 PM »
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  • Most of this post is stuck in the same rut: Hewko discussing the rite, where Johnson is discussing the passage of grace.

    It begins by quoting Williamson saying the new Mass must always be avoided, but overlooks qualifying that remark with the objective-subjective distinction (i.e., nobody should go to it, but there can be subjective reasons which permit it), as it necessarily must.

    Let's let Greg Taylor explain it to us by quoting...Bishop Williamson (1996, nearly 20 years before Mahopac):

    "When Archbishop Lefebvre said it [i.e., that Catholics can satisfy the Sunday obligation by attending the new Mass], he meant that the Novus Ordo Mass is objectively and intrinsically evil, but Catholics unaware of, or disbelieving in, that evil, because of the rite’s official promulgation, may subjectively fulfil their Sunday duty by attending the new Mass.”
    https://thecatacombs.org/showthread.php?tid=4402

    What could be clearer?

    We have Taylor quote mining in an attempt to highlight an alleged contradiction betwen Williamson and Lefebvre, but he ends up vindicating Williamson unwittingly, by explaining Williamson and Lefebvre see it the same way, per Williamson's 1996 explanation.

    The post mentions grace once, but immediately conflates it with the rite (yet again), calling it "illicit," and concluding that "nothing illicit can give grace."  Need I point out ad nauseum that Johnson is speaking of the sacrament, while you continually lapse back to speaking of the rite?

    Do you think Vigano believes noconciliarists receive grace from Holy Communion?





    Good catch: How was that woman in Mahopac not among those who are "unaware of, or disbelieving in, that evil, because of the rite’s official promulgation?"

    If so, subjectively she would be among those fulfilling their Sunday obligation at the new Mass, and retaining her good disposition, would receive an increase of sanctifyin grace at Holy Communion.

    I'm not seeing the problem (unless like the other post states, this is a manufactured confusion erected to divide the resistance by playing upon the unlettered ignorance of the faithful, some of whom have bought into the ruse).

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #57 on: October 31, 2022, 03:01:58 PM »
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  • Good catch: How was that woman in Mahopac not among those who are "unaware of, or disbelieving in, that evil, because of the rite’s official promulgation?"

    If M. Taylor says Msgr. Williamson was right in 1996, then how did he become wrong in 2015 or 2022?


    :popcorn:
    Noblesse oblige.

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #58 on: October 31, 2022, 03:18:39 PM »
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  • Good catch: How was that woman in Mahopac not among those who are "unaware of, or disbelieving in, that evil, because of the rite’s official promulgation?"

    If so, subjectively she would be among those fulfilling their Sunday obligation at the new Mass, and retaining her good disposition, would receive an increase of sanctifyin grace at Holy Communion.

    I'm not seeing the problem (unless like the other post states, this is a manufactured confusion erected to divide the resistance by playing upon the unlettered ignorance of the faithful, some of whom have bought into the ruse).

    I stand to be corrected but in the video didn't the woman ask about Novus Ordo Masses only during the week and elsewhere, that she was well aware of the Traditional Mass? If so, that plainly shows that she was not ignorant of the true Mass.

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #59 on: October 31, 2022, 03:32:59 PM »
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  • I stand to be corrected but in the video didn't the woman ask about Novus Ordo Masses only during the week and elsewhere, that she was well aware of the Traditional Mass? If so, that plainly shows that she was not ignorant of the true Mass.

    The 1996 criterion of Msgr. Williamson (which M. Taylor says was also the thinking of Msgr. Lefebvre) is not that one be ignorant of the traditional Messe, but that one is "unaware of, or disbelieving in, that evil, because of the rite’s official promulgation." 

    From what I recall of that video, this description would certainly have fit the woman.