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Author Topic: Email from Fr. MacDonald  (Read 7999 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2022, 08:36:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 25, 2022, 06:46:15 PM
    Perhaps if you read the first three sentences of his response, the answer would come to you?
    Thank you for your gracious response, Mr. Johnson. If you would be so kind please answer points 1 & 3 as well.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #16 on: September 25, 2022, 09:12:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 25, 2022, 01:31:36 PM
    Well then, you are probably happy then that Sean Jonson doesn't participate on this forum anymore. Why should he, with the attacks from sedevacantists that he had to deal with?

    Father Hewko is no sedevacantist, so this is no "sede attack".  Father is corect about this issue, with Bishop Williamson giving a soft green light to the NOM.  Sean's criticisms regarding the Sacrament conferring grace are well handled ahead of time by Father Hewko, who distinguishese between 1) potential grace and 2) actual grace conferred ... and who, while conceding that it may be debated theoretically, states that it's a dangerous opinion that could easily be construed as rendering attendance at the NOM acceptable to Catholics.  Indeed, the Sacraments of the Orthodox are valid (more certainly than the NO Sacraments), and yet, if some woman asked, "I don't have access to daily Catholic Mass, but there's an Orthodox church near me, and I would like to receive the graces from the Sacrament," no Catholic in their right mind would respond, "well, you would receive graces from the Orthodox sacraments, so it might be OK for you to go."  Or, similarly, of a Satanic Mass, "Well, although it's Satanic, if you go there and receive the Sacraments with the proper dispositions, you could receive grace."

    Do we believe that the NOM is a sacrilegeous bastard Rite of Mass or don't we?  If we don't, we might as well just head back to the Motu or even the local clown Mass.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #17 on: September 25, 2022, 09:34:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 25, 2022, 09:12:57 PM
    Or, similarly, of a Satanic Mass, "Well, although it's Satanic, if you go there and receive the Sacraments with the proper dispositions, you could receive grace."

    Do we believe that the NOM is a sacrilegeous bastard Rite of Mass or don't we?  If we don't, we might as well just head back to the Motu or even the local clown Mass.
    I don’t understand what you mean by a Satanic Mass.  Why would the Sacraments be at a Satanic Mass?
    I would have suffered clown Mass until the day I died if that was what the Pope bade me do.  The only reason that I don’t is because Vatican II contains heresy and a Pope can not promulgate heresy so that guy was not the Pope and therefore the changes to the Sacraments were also not made by the Pope and for that and other reasons, I don’t trust that conciliar priests are even validly ordained.  How can the Sacraments be confected by men who are not priests?  Who the Pope is matters when the claimants have been anti-Christian.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #18 on: September 25, 2022, 09:40:07 PM »
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    • One has to wonder if we're on the right side of this when each and every trad group keeps fragmenting and going into schism with each other.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #19 on: September 25, 2022, 09:56:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 25, 2022, 09:40:07 PM
    One has to wonder if we're on the right side of this when each and every trad group keeps fragmenting and going into schism with each other.
    Agreed
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #20 on: September 25, 2022, 10:13:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 25, 2022, 09:56:52 PM
    Agreed
    Historically-speaking it's the heretical groups that splinter and fight like this, not the true Church herself. 
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #21 on: September 25, 2022, 10:26:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 25, 2022, 10:13:09 PM
    Historically-speaking it's the heretical groups that splinter and fight like this, not the true Church herself.
    The heretical New Order has been splintered and fighting since its inception. The Church has a problem that nobody wants to deal with and that is the terrible situation of a dangerously extended interregnum.
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #22 on: September 26, 2022, 04:09:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 25, 2022, 09:12:57 PM
    Do we believe that the NOM is a sacrilegious bastard Rite of Mass or don't we?  If we don't, we might as well just head back to the Motu or even the local clown Mass.
    Well said. If we can attend the Novus Ordo, then there is zero need for a Resistance. It undercuts the entire raison d'etre of resisting the sspx. A little common sense goes a long way here.

    Too bad Fr. MacDonald is parading about this ill-conceived logic by SJ. Its not a good look.

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    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #23 on: September 26, 2022, 12:10:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 25, 2022, 09:29:50 AM
    Father Hewko -  We shall see. But it is my humble opinion, that it will be a close repetition of her decision on the Anglican orders, which were all declared invalid (and therefore not grace-giving) by Pope Leo XIII in "Apostolicae Curae" in 1896. Why? Because the Anglican adaptations to the Mass and sacrament of Holy Orders expressed a faith different from the Catholic Faith. This alone sufficed to make them invalid. Do not the New Mass changes do the same?

    Sean Johnson - Apostolicae Curae limited itself to the sacrament of Holy Orders. Anglican Orders are infallibly declared invalid. It said nothing about the Anglican liturgy or purported Mass.

    Sean Johnson is either ignorant, or he's of bad will here.  

    Pope Leo XIII exhausted his theologians and gave the Anglicans every opportunity to prove their ordinations were valid.  When he released Apostolicae Curae, he tasked the English Bishops with writing a reply to the Anglican Archbishops.  Here is just one excerpt from the "Vindication" suggesting they took into account the Reformers attitude concerning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, as well as countless other false doctrine's of theirs, when considering Anglican Ordinations...

    A Vindication of the Bull Apostolicae Curae, #38, The Destruction of Altars

    "The destruction of the altars was a measure so distinct in its meaning that we have never been able to conceive how that meaning could be misunderstood. The measure meant a bitter hatred of the Mass, and a hatred directed against the Mass itself, not merely against some obscure abuse such as recent writers have sought in vain to unearth from the ambiguous phrases of one or two theological writers. Usum non tollit abusus. Surely if these reformers had desired only to remove an abuse, but were full of reverence for the great Christian Sacrifice itself, they would not have destroyed and desecrated the altars, and substituted tables in their place, alleging as their reason, in unqualified terms, that ’the form of a table shall more move the simple from the superstitious opinions of the Popish Mass unto the right use of the Lord’s Supper. For the use of an altar is to make sacrifice upon it ; the use of a table is to serve men to eat upon it."


    What a striking resemblance to the Vatican II counter church...


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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #24 on: September 26, 2022, 12:19:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Sgt Rock USMC on September 26, 2022, 12:10:14 PM
    Sean Johnson is either ignorant, or he's of bad will here. 

    Pope Leo XIII exhausted his theologians and gave the Anglicans every opportunity to prove their ordinations were valid.  When he released Apostolicae Curae, he tasked the English Bishops with writing a reply to the Anglican Archbishops.  Here is just one excerpt from the "Vindication" suggesting they took into account the Reformers attitude concerning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, as well as countless other false doctrine's of theirs, when considering Anglican Ordinations...

    A Vindication of the Bull Apostolicae Curae, #38, The Destruction of Altars

    "The destruction of the altars was a measure so distinct in its meaning that we have never been able to conceive how that meaning could be misunderstood. The measure meant a bitter hatred of the Mass, and a hatred directed against the Mass itself, not merely against some obscure abuse such as recent writers have sought in vain to unearth from the ambiguous phrases of one or two theological writers. Usum non tollit abusus. Surely if these reformers had desired only to remove an abuse, but were full of reverence for the great Christian Sacrifice itself, they would not have destroyed and desecrated the altars, and substituted tables in their place, alleging as their reason, in unqualified terms, that ’the form of a table shall more move the simple from the superstitious opinions of the Popish Mass unto the right use of the Lord’s Supper. For the use of an altar is to make sacrifice upon it ; the use of a table is to serve men to eat upon it."


    What a striking resemblance to the Vatican II counter church...

    Your quotation is from Fr. MacDonald, not Sean Johnson.  Nobody has quoted Sean Johnson's article yet, despite it being appended to the OP.
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    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #25 on: September 26, 2022, 12:27:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 26, 2022, 12:19:04 PM
    Your quotation is from Fr. MacDonald, not Sean Johnson.  Nobody has quoted Sean Johnson's article yet, despite it being appended to the OP.
    Apologies to Sean Johnson...
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #26 on: September 26, 2022, 01:48:50 PM »
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    • Perhaps Sean should re-read his own "Catalog of Compromise, Change, and Contradiction in the SSPX."

    Particularly #1, highlighting the "change" that the SSPX no longer considers the New Mass participation 'sinful.' Clearly, this "change" applies to +Williamson as well, who used to say the New Mass was intrinsically evil.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/catalog-of-compromise-change-and-contradiction-in-the-sspx/msg644466/#msg644466
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #27 on: September 26, 2022, 02:12:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 26, 2022, 01:48:50 PM
    Perhaps Sean should re-read his own "Catalog of Compromise, Change, and Contradiction in the SSPX."

    Particularly #1, highlighting the "change" that the SSPX no longer considers the New Mass participation 'sinful.' Clearly, this "change" applies to +Williamson as well, who used to say the New Mass was intrinsically evil.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/catalog-of-compromise-change-and-contradiction-in-the-sspx/msg644466/#msg644466

    As far as I can tell, Mr. Johnson's article does not address new Masss participation, but whether grace passes to well-disposed Novus Ordo communicants.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #28 on: September 26, 2022, 02:39:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 26, 2022, 02:12:13 PM
    As far as I can tell, Mr. Johnson's article does not address new Masss participation, but whether grace passes to well-disposed Novus Ordo communicants.

    Father Hewko admits that there's a possible theological argument to be made along those lines, but points out that the line is blurred for the faithful in terms of attending the NO and receiving communion.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Email from Fr. MacDonald
    « Reply #29 on: September 26, 2022, 02:52:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on September 25, 2022, 01:31:36 PM
    Well then, you are probably happy then that Sean Jonson doesn't participate on this forum anymore. Why should he, with the attacks from sedevacantists that he had to deal with?
    Sean seemed to be angry all the time at just about everyone on this forum who disagreed with him on any topic at all, which was just about everybody. I think he left because he just didn't like posting on here.
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