Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Dueling  (Read 1217 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Dueling
« on: October 03, 2013, 12:39:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is dueling, to preserve one's honor, permissible under Catholic teaching?  Specifically, dueling to the death.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 01:37:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No.


    Quote


    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05184b.htm

    After what has been said above there can be no doubt that duelling is contrary to the ordinances of the Catholic Church and of most civilized countries.

    By the wording of its ordinance against duelling, the Council of Trent plainly indicated that duelling was essentially wrong and since then theologians have almost universally characterized it as a sinful and reprehensible course of action.

    However there were always a few scholars who held the opinion that cases might arise in which the unlawfulness of duelling could not be proved with certainty by mere reason. But this opinion has not been tenable since Pope Benedict XIV's Bull "Detestabilem" of the year 1752.



    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 01:47:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Then how is a Catholic gentleman to gain satisfaction when his honor has been impugned?

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #3 on: October 03, 2013, 02:24:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Catholic gentlemen are not to be concerned with their honor. We are taught just the opposite, not to be prideful as pride leads to sin.

    We are also instructed to fulfill our duty of state (the responsibilities we have at that particular time in our lives). Of course that cannot be accomplished if we are dead due to a stupid argument.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #4 on: October 03, 2013, 02:51:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think "Guest" is terribly mistaken. The Catholic Encyclopedia states the following:

    "Among the goods which are external to man honour holds the first place, above wealth and power. It is that which we especially give to God, it is the highest reward which we can bestow on virtue, and it is what men naturally prize the most. The Apostle bids us give honour to whom honour is due, and so, to withhold it or to show dishonour to whom honour is due is a sin against justice, and entails the obligation of making suitable restitution. If we have simply neglected our duty in this respect, we must make amends by more assiduously cultivating the person injured by our neglect. If we have been guilty of offering a public insult to another, we must offer an equally public satisfaction; if the insult was private, we must make the suitable reparation in private, so that the person injured should be reasonably satisfied."

    An insult to honor, therefore, can hardly be described as a "stupid argument."  As stated above, honor is the highest of the external goods, and it is a sin to withhold honor, or damage the honor of another.  A duel to gain satisfaction for insulted honor, would therefore seem fitting.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #5 on: October 03, 2013, 04:22:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •  :nunchaku:

    Honor is a forgotten virtue these days.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 05:21:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Wrong. Nicholas I condemned it as did others. The point the author was making is the obligation of restitution, often public, when we falsely accuse another. That is an act of humility -- the contra virtue to pride. The message was not that of seeking revenge.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 05:22:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Nowhere does the Catholic Encyclopedia suggest that duelling to the death is the way to repair a damaged reputation.

    The Council of Trent has this to say:-

    Quote



    Chapter XIX
    Dueling Is Punished With The Severest Penalties


    The abominable practice of dueling, introduced by the contrivance of the devil, that by the cruel death of the body he may bring about also the destruction of the soul, should be utterly eradicated from the Christian world.

    Emperor, kings, dukes, princes, marquises, counts, and temporal rulers by whatever other name known, who shall within their territories grant a place for dueling between Christians, shall be <eo ipso> excommunicated and shall be understood to be deprived of the jurisdiction and dominion obtained from the Church over any city, castle or locality in which or at which they have permitted the duel to take place, and if they are fiefs they shall forthwith revert to their direct rulers.

    Those who entered the combat as well as those who are called their seconds shall incur the penalty of excommunication, the confiscation of all their property, and perpetual infamy, and are in conformity with the sacred canons to be punished as homicides, and if they are killed in the combat they shall be forever deprived of Christian burial.

    Those also who give advice in the matter of a duel, whether in questions of right or of fact, or in any other way whatever persuade anyone thereto, as also those who are present, shall be bound by the fetters of excommunication and everlasting malediction; any privilege whatsoever or evil custom, even though immemorial, no notwithstanding.



    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #8 on: October 03, 2013, 06:55:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •  :shocked:     :light-saber:  :light-saber:
     I seem to recall reading somewhere that participation, approval, watching, or facilitating a duel to the death incurs automatic excommunication.  Is someone on CI challenging Bishop Fellay to a duel?  
    What a great idea for a Resistance fundraiser!  Fr. Pfeiffer and Fr. Hewko vs. Bp. Fellay and Fr. Pfluger!  How's that for sarcasm?  
     :roll-laugh1: :dancing-banana:

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #9 on: October 03, 2013, 08:20:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • President Andrew Jackson & Charles Dinkinson duel


    Andrew Jackson's most notorious duel was set against Charles Dinkinson, another upstart attorney trying to build his reputation on the Frontier. The duel with Dinkinson, like Jackson's duel with the Governor, also developed over a longer period of time, but this time it was about a horse race.

    Jackson had placed a bet with Joseph Erwin, Dinkinson's father in law, on having a race between two of their horses. According to their bet, the loser of the horse race would have to pay $2,000, and if a horse couldn't run then their was an $800 forfeiting penalty. Before they could race their horses Erwin's horse went lame, and he and Jackson got into a disagreement over the forfeiting penalty. Eventually, Erwin paid, but hard feelings remained between the two.

    Stories about the dispute between Erwin and Jackson spread and grew into something that they probably weren't. Nevertheless, Dinkinson became angry about some of the rumors going around between Jackson and his father in-law so he sent a friend of his, Thomas Swann, to ask around about what Jackson was saying about the matter. Swann's meddling into Jackson's affairs prompted Jackson to confront Swann at a bar which ended with Jackson beating Swann with his cane.

    These two incidents prompted Dinkinson to begin publishing articles in the local paper calling Jackson a coward. Jackson replied by challenging Dinkinson to a duel. The two agreed to meet in Kentucky and face off at 24 paces. It should be noted that Dinkinson was an excellent marksman, it was said he could shoot 4 bullets within the space of a dollar coin at 24 paces.

    Jackson knowing that he was about to duel an excellent marksman, prepared for the event by wearing an overly large coat to disguise his body's form, and to disguise where his heart was located. He also planned on letting Dinkinson shoot him first, so that he could take his time with aiming and fire a well placed shot.

    At the dueling ground Jackson carried out his strategy with devastating effect. After the order to fire and been given Dinkinson turned and shot Jackson in the chest, missing his heart by only an inch. According to witnesses at the event, they all thought Dinkinson had missed because Andrew Jackson just stood there like nothing had happened. After being shot in the chest Jackson took his time before finally delivering a bullet to Dinkinson's abdomen.

    Dinkinson collapsed and was taken home where he died several hours later from the wounds he sustained in the duel. As for Jackson, the bullet that hit him was too close to his heart to perform surgery on, and he ended up carrying it with him for the rest of his life. This bullet frequently caused Jackson health problems in his future, with him often coughing up blood as a result and as a reminder to the duel he fought with Dinkinson.


    Sources:

    Andrew Jackson His Life and Times - H.W. Brands

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #10 on: October 03, 2013, 10:43:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Guest
    Is dueling, to preserve one's honor, permissible under Catholic teaching?  Specifically, dueling to the death.

    No. In fact there was an excommunication attached to participation in dueling.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #11 on: October 03, 2013, 10:46:43 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Teaches that the true lover of God must care little for life and honor.

    We now come to some other little things which are also of very great importance, though they will appear trifling. All this seems a great task, and so it is, for it means warring against ourselves. But once we begin to work, God, too, works in our souls and bestows such favors on them that the most we can do in this life seems to us very little. And we nuns are doing everything we can, by giving up our freedom for the love of God and entrusting it to another, and in putting up with so many trials -- fasts, silence, enclosure, service in choir -- that however much we may want to indulge ourselves we can do so only occasionally: perhaps, in all the convents I have seen, I am the only nun guilty of self-indulgence. Why, then, do we shrink from interior mortification, since this is the means by which every other kind of mortification may become much more meritorious and perfect, so that it can then be practiced with greater tranquility and ease? This, as I have said, is acquired by gradual progress and by never indulging our own will and desire, even in small things, until we have succeeded in subduing the body to the spirit.

    I repeat that this consists mainly or entirely in our ceasing to care about ourselves and our own pleasures, for the least that anyone who is beginning to serve the Lord truly can offer Him is his life. Once he has surrendered his will to Him, what has he to fear? It is evident that if he is a true religious and a real man of prayer and aspires to the enjoyment of Divine consolations, he must not [turn back or] shrink from desiring to die and suffer martyrdom for His sake. And do you not know, sisters, that the life of a good religious, who wishes to be among the closest friends of God, is one long martyrdom? I say "long", for, by comparison with decapitation, which is over very quickly, it may well be termed so, though life itself is short and some lives are short in the extreme. How do we know but that ours will be so short that it may end only one hour or one moment after the time of our resolving to render our entire service to God? This would be quite possible; and so we must not set store by anything that comes to an end, least of all by life, since not a day of it is secure. Who, if he thought that each hour might be his last, would not spend it in labor?

    Believe me, it is safest to think that this is so; by so doing we shall learn to subdue our wills in everything; for if, as I have said, you are very careful about your prayer, you will soon find yourselves gradually reaching the summit of the mountain without knowing how. But how harsh it sounds to say that we must take pleasure in nothing, unless we also say what consolations and delights this renunciation brings in its train, and what a great gain it is, even in this life! What security it gives us! Here, as you all practise this, you have done the principal part; each of you encourages[38] and helps the rest; and each of you must try to outstrip her sisters.

    Be very careful about your interior thoughts, especially if they have to do with precedence. May God, by His Passion, keep us from expressing, or dwelling upon, such thoughts as these: "But I am her senior [in the Order]"; "But I am older"; "But I have worked harder"; "But that other sister is being better treated than I am". If these thoughts come, you must quickly check them; if you allow yourselves to dwell on them, or introduce them into your conversation, they will spread like the plague and in religious houses they may give rise to great abuses. Remember, I know a great deal about this. If you have a prioress who allows such things, however trifling, you must believe that God has permitted her to be given to you because of your sins and that she will be the beginning of your ruin. Cry to Him, and let your whole prayer be that He may come to your aid by sending you either a religious or a person given to prayer; for, if anyone prays with the resolve to enjoy the favors and consolations which God bestows in prayer, it is always well that he should have this detachment.

    You may ask why I lay such stress on this, and think that I am being too severe about it, and say that God grants consolations to persons less completely detached than that. I quite believe He does; for, in His infinite wisdom, He sees that this will enable Him to lead them to leave everything for His sake. I do not mean, by "leaving" everything, entering the religious life, for there may be obstacles to this, and the soul that is perfect can be detached and humble anywhere. It will find detachment harder in the world, however, for worldly trappings will be a great impediment to it. Still, believe me in this: questions of honor and desires for property can arise within convents as well as outside them, and the more temptations of this kind are removed from us, the more we are to blame if we yield to them. Though persons who do so may have spent years in prayer, or rather in meditation (for perfect prayer eventually destroys [all] these attachments), they will never make great progress or come to enjoy the real fruit of prayer.

    Ask yourselves, sisters, if these things, which seem so insignificant, mean anything to you, for the only reason you are here is that you may detach yourselves from them. Nobody honors you any the more for having them and they lose you advantages which might have gained you more honor; the result is that you get both dishonor and loss at the same time. Let each of you ask herself how much humility she has and she will see what progress she has made. If she is really humble, I do not think the devil will dare to tempt her to take even the slightest interest in matters of precedence, for he is so shrewd that he is afraid of the blow she would strike him. If a humble soul is tempted in this way by the devil, that virtue cannot fail to bring her more fortitude and greater profit. For clearly the temptation will cause her to look into her life, to compare the services she has rendered the Lord with what she owes Him and with the marvelous way in which He abased Himself to give us an example of humility, and to think over her sins and remember where she deserves to be on account of them. Exercises like this bring the soul such profit that on the following day Satan will not dare to come back again lest he should get his head broken.

    Take this advice from me and do not forget it: you should see to it that your sisters profit by your temptations, not only interiorly (where it would be very wrong if they did not), but exteriorly as well. If you want to avenge yourself on the devil and free yourselves more quickly from temptation, ask the superior, as soon as a temptation comes to you, to give you some lowly office to do, or do some such thing, as best you can, on our own initiative, studying as you do it how to bend your will to perform tasks you dislike. The Lord will show you ways of doing so and this will soon rid you of the temptation.

    God deliver us from people who wish to serve Him yet who are mindful of their own honor. Reflect how little they gain from this; for, as I have said, the very act of desiring honor robs us of it, especially in matters of precedence: there is no poison in the world which is so fatal to perfection. You will say that these are little things which have to do with human nature and are not worth troubling about; do not trifle with them, for in religious houses they spread like foam on water, and there is no small matter so extremely dangerous as are punctiliousness about honor and sensitiveness to insult. Do you know one reason, apart from many others, why this is so?[39] It may have its root, perhaps, in some trivial slight -- hardly anything, in fact -- and the devil will then induce someone else to consider it important, so that she will think it a real charity to tell you about it and to ask how you can allow yourself to be insulted so; and she will pray that God may give you patience and that you may offer it to Him, for even a saint could not bear more. The devil is simply putting his deceitfulness into this other person's mouth; and, though you yourself are quite ready to bear the slight, you are tempted to vainglory because you have not resisted something else as perfectly as you should.

    This human nature of ours is so wretchedly weak that, even while we are telling ourselves that there is nothing for us to make a fuss about, we imagine we are doing something virtuous, and begin to feel sorry for ourselves, particularly when we see that other people are sorry for us too. In this way the soul begins to lose the occasions of merit which it had gained; it becomes weaker; and thus a door is opened to the devil by which he can enter on some other occasion with a temptation worse than the last. It may even happen that, when you yourself are prepared to suffer an insult, your sisters come and ask you if you are a beast of burden, and say you ought to be more sensitive about things. Oh, my sisters, for the love of God, never let charity move you to show pity for another in anything to do with these fancied insults, for that is like the pity shown to holy Job by his wife and friends.

    http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/saints/wayperf.htm#chap12

    What St Theresa says about honor and living in a convent also applies to honor and living in the world.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #12 on: October 03, 2013, 10:48:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Guest

    President Andrew Jackson & Charles Dinkinson duel


    Andrew Jackson's most notorious duel was set against Charles Dinkinson, another upstart attorney trying to build his reputation on the Frontier. The duel with Dinkinson, like Jackson's duel with the Governor, also developed over a longer period of time, but this time it was about a horse race.

    Jackson had placed a bet with Joseph Erwin, Dinkinson's father in law, on having a race between two of their horses. According to their bet, the loser of the horse race would have to pay $2,000, and if a horse couldn't run then their was an $800 forfeiting penalty. Before they could race their horses Erwin's horse went lame, and he and Jackson got into a disagreement over the forfeiting penalty. Eventually, Erwin paid, but hard feelings remained between the two.

    Stories about the dispute between Erwin and Jackson spread and grew into something that they probably weren't. Nevertheless, Dinkinson became angry about some of the rumors going around between Jackson and his father in-law so he sent a friend of his, Thomas Swann, to ask around about what Jackson was saying about the matter. Swann's meddling into Jackson's affairs prompted Jackson to confront Swann at a bar which ended with Jackson beating Swann with his cane.

    These two incidents prompted Dinkinson to begin publishing articles in the local paper calling Jackson a coward. Jackson replied by challenging Dinkinson to a duel. The two agreed to meet in Kentucky and face off at 24 paces. It should be noted that Dinkinson was an excellent marksman, it was said he could shoot 4 bullets within the space of a dollar coin at 24 paces.

    Jackson knowing that he was about to duel an excellent marksman, prepared for the event by wearing an overly large coat to disguise his body's form, and to disguise where his heart was located. He also planned on letting Dinkinson shoot him first, so that he could take his time with aiming and fire a well placed shot.

    At the dueling ground Jackson carried out his strategy with devastating effect. After the order to fire and been given Dinkinson turned and shot Jackson in the chest, missing his heart by only an inch. According to witnesses at the event, they all thought Dinkinson had missed because Andrew Jackson just stood there like nothing had happened. After being shot in the chest Jackson took his time before finally delivering a bullet to Dinkinson's abdomen.

    Dinkinson collapsed and was taken home where he died several hours later from the wounds he sustained in the duel. As for Jackson, the bullet that hit him was too close to his heart to perform surgery on, and he ended up carrying it with him for the rest of his life. This bullet frequently caused Jackson health problems in his future, with him often coughing up blood as a result and as a reminder to the duel he fought with Dinkinson.


    Sources:

    Andrew Jackson His Life and Times - H.W. Brands

    These people were not Catholic and their exaxmple should not be followed in this instance.

    Offline ggreg

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3001
    • Reputation: +184/-179
    • Gender: Male
    Dueling
    « Reply #13 on: October 04, 2013, 12:15:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Guest
    Then how is a Catholic gentleman to gain satisfaction when his honor has been impugned?


    What about coming onto an Internet forum and moaning about it?

    Or, just not giving a toss?

    Those seem to be solutions.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Dueling
    « Reply #14 on: October 04, 2013, 01:10:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Guest
    Then how is a Catholic gentleman to gain satisfaction when his honor has been impugned?

    If you offer up the "satifaction" as a sacrifice to God you will give more praise to God than you would have gained fighting in some kind of duel.