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Author Topic: NO Tribunal  (Read 1230 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: NO Tribunal
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2025, 04:24:13 PM »
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  • Agreed, it stinks

    But there seems to be a conflict between marriage #1 and marriage #2

    I’m trying to resolve that conflict

    The question seems to be - IS A NOVUS ORDO TRIBUNAL COMPETENT TO RENDER JUDGEMENT of the conflict ?
    Tribunals don't judge conflicts.  They judge the validity of sacraments, particularly matrimony.  You are being vague and I wonder why.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #31 on: July 23, 2025, 04:28:25 PM »
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  • The marriage to the heathen Ukie is a valid, non-sacramental marriage. Were the Ukie subsequently baptised, the marriage would become sacramental.
    Non-sacramental marriages can be dissolved in favour of the Faith (Petrine Privilege, Pauline Privilege), but sacramental marriages can only dissolved by the death of one or both spouses.

    Understanding marriage validity can be complicated and confusing to those untrained in canon law, whether Corpus or 17 Code or 83 Code. For example, the marriage between two baptised Protestants would be presumed valid and invalidity would need to be proved. Or,  Catholics are bound to canonical form for validity. Or, certain defects can be sanated (cleansed) at the root validating a marriage ex post facto. Or, a civil  marriage or one attempted before a non-Catholic minister can be validated by convalidation before a Catholic minister with delegation. Ah ... delegation! For validity, one must contract marriage before a priest or deacon with faculties from the ordinary bishop or with delegation from a parish pastor. Oh ... oh ... and Eastern Catholics must have their marriages conferred by a priest, never a deacon which would likely invalidate the marrige because, whereas in the Latin Church, the spouses marry each other before ecclesiastical witness, in the Eastern Churches the priest (and never a deacon) confers the sacrament on the couple.

    A Catholic, even if fallen away, can never marry in a non-Catholic ceremony.  Ever.  There's no such thing as valid non-sacrament.  There is natural/putative marriage which exists between pagans, Jews, etc.

    The OP is still married to his 2nd wife UNLESS there is evidence that the first union (his or hers) was valid and rendered the second union invalid.

    I'm guessing he wants to prove his 2nd marriage was invalid so that he can contract a 3rd marriage.  

    They won't go the Novus Ordo mass but they want Novus Ordo annulments.....weird.


    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #32 on: July 23, 2025, 04:37:02 PM »
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  • Nobody new but more than curious - shooting for moral certainty.  In the absence of that, I’ll hang onto my vows

    Indeed, it been a rough go…
    A Catholic, even if fallen away, can never marry in a non-Catholic ceremony.  Ever.  There's no such thing as valid non-sacrament.  There is natural/putative marriage which exists between pagans, Jews, etc.

    The OP is still married to his 2nd wife UNLESS there is evidence that the first union (his or hers) was valid and rendered the second union invalid.

    I'm guessing he wants to prove his 2nd marriage was invalid so that he can contract a 3rd marriage. 

    They won't go the Novus Ordo mass but they want Novus Ordo annulments.....weird.
    The above quote seems to be from the OP.  And answers the above post.  Let's not make assumptions.  He just wants moral certainty.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #33 on: July 23, 2025, 05:31:06 PM »
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  • Thanks Gray.  Lots of silly assumptions…

    In the future I’ll leave out unnecessary context - it piques interest and engagement but sure does muddy the waters (tho many of the responses have also been intelligent and thought-provoking if not quite getting to the heart of my particular matter)

    If anyone is still interested, here is what I consider the critical issue:

    IS A NOVUS ORDER MARRIAGE TRIBUNAL A COMPETENT/AUTHORITATIVE BODY ???

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #34 on: July 23, 2025, 05:40:29 PM »
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  • Thanks Gray.  Lots of silly assumptions…

    In the future I’ll leave out unnecessary context - it piques interest and engagement but sure does muddy the waters (tho many of the responses have also been intelligent and thought-provoking if not quite getting to the heart of my particular matter)

    If anyone is still interested, here is what I consider the critical issue:

    IS A NOVUS ORDER MARRIAGE TRIBUNAL A COMPETENT/AUTHORITATIVE BODY ???
    Do we need to know the year in question?  As we get further and further from Vatican 2, I think the competency weakens (that might not be the right way to say it).  Did the person/people judging the tribunal (again not sure if my terminology is correct) have the authority to decide?  Did the authority of the priests and bishops after Vatican 2, immediately cease to exist?  

    Sorry no answers, only many questions.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #35 on: July 23, 2025, 05:57:48 PM »
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  • Thanks Gray.  Lots of silly assumptions…

    In the future I’ll leave out unnecessary context - it piques interest and engagement but sure does muddy the waters (tho many of the responses have also been intelligent and thought-provoking if not quite getting to the heart of my particular matter)

    If anyone is still interested, here is what I consider the critical issue:

    IS A NOVUS ORDER MARRIAGE TRIBUNAL A COMPETENT/AUTHORITATIVE BODY ???
    You are asking the wrong question.  You don’t need a marriage tribunal (no matter if traditional or novus ordo) to answer the question of “Is marriage 1 valid?”.  No, it’s not.  Marriage 1 isn’t a sacramental marriage, which is the entire reason why the Pauline privilege exists.  Your questions around marriage 1 can simply be answered by anyone who has a basic knowledge of canon law.  The tribunal was correct.  But it doesnt take a tribunal to answer the question.  

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #36 on: July 23, 2025, 06:06:14 PM »
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  • Disagree.  I think my question is correct and I’ll let it stand. You don’t have to answer it - I give you leave sir

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #37 on: July 23, 2025, 06:12:04 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  The Pauline privilege rules have been around since, well, St Paul.  So 2,000 yrs.  Your situation isn’t that unique or special.  I personally know multiple similar circuмstances.  Ask any Trad priest and you’ll get the same answer. 


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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #38 on: July 23, 2025, 06:22:28 PM »
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  • Timeline

    1st marriage mid-‘80s.  Tribunal early ‘90s

    Bishops with jurisdiction (in law/tribunals) that accepted V2 and abandoned Tradition were certainly gone from my diocese by 1970

    By 1970, with few exceptions, the NO has a firm grasp on all structures formerly associated with the true church

    DURING the Council you could argue for grey areas but afterwards I think Tradition faded exponentially 

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #39 on: July 23, 2025, 06:25:38 PM »
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  • I get the Pauline rules, etc have been around since forever. I’m not disputing that.  WHO gets to enforce those rules is the question

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #40 on: July 23, 2025, 06:33:45 PM »
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  • Seems to me that when this issue was put before “the court”

    - the court was high on Vat2
    - Mr bezzlebub bribed the court
    - the court swore an altered oath
    - the court was appointed by an imposter

    Is this a legit court ?


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #41 on: July 23, 2025, 07:15:26 PM »
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  • Plenty of Trad priests use the Pauline privilege and marry a person that was previously “married” to a non-catholic.  A tribunal isn’t necessary. 

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #42 on: July 23, 2025, 07:47:55 PM »
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  • And I reckon plenty more don’t do it because they believe, as I do, that ordinary priests don’t have that authority and only bishops with jurisdiction do have it

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #43 on: July 23, 2025, 08:30:52 PM »
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  • Essentially, for a Catholic to marry an unbaptized person outside of the Catholic Church and have it recognized as valid by the Church, the Catholic party needs to follow the necessary procedures to obtain a dispensation from their local bishop, which involves certain promises and a commitment to their faith and the religious upbringing of any children. 

    —- The above describes your situation.  Since the original marriage didn’t get a dispensation (it was done by a Protestant minister), I doubt it was even valid.  

    The Pauline privilege may not even apply.  Marriage 1 may not have needed this privilege.  May have been null to begin with.  

    Why are you asking this site for advice?  You need to get an opinion of a Trad Priest.  

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: NO Tribunal
    « Reply #44 on: July 23, 2025, 09:55:55 PM »
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  • Respectfully, you don’t know what you’re talking about.  I suggest you acquaint yourself with the the entirety of the thread before spouting-off

    I’ll get my advice from whom I choose including trads from all walks of life.  There are also kooky trad clergy I wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole