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Traditional Catholic Faith => Anσnymσus Posts Allowed => Topic started by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 02:40:35 AM

Title: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 02:40:35 AM
For example virginity, how many partners, whether one was abused or not, etc?

Pamphleteer Fr. Daniel Lord, SJ said that the answer is NO, assuming that the sin had been confessed and it was not being committed anymore. 

I myself have a sinful past and I wouldn't want a potential spouse to know about it.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 04:51:40 AM


Hard to imagine a potential spouse who would agree with...  "Nah, tell them nothing! Let them guess!"
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 05:30:05 AM
For example virginity, how many partners, whether one was abused or not, etc?

Pamphleteer Fr. Daniel Lord, SJ said that the answer is NO, assuming that the sin had been confessed and it was not being committed anymore.

I myself have a sinful past and I wouldn't want a potential spouse to know about it.
I agree with Fr. Lord. When we confess our sins to the priest we are forgiven and those sins are buried and we rise to a new life in Christ.
Presumably, you do not, at the moment, have a specific person in mind for your spouse. 
I too had a sinful past; once I repented of those sɛҳuąƖ sins and made the resolution to sin no more I, providentially, met my spouse, who was deeply committed to a sincere life in Christ and my spouse’s stipulation when we talked of possible marriage was that our marriage would be founded firmly on Jesus Christ. My spouse also had a past and had repented. When you repent you leave your sins behind and there is no reason dredge them up.
Of course, much will depend on both of you and how forgiving and understanding each of you is. Also, there could be repercussions from past sins or past abuse, but as spouses we are there to support and pray for each and to grow in love.
Do not be anxious about this. Trust God and pray for a good spouse to come your way soon. Give Archangel Raphael a call. He is the one for finding a good spouse and sorting out early marriage problems. Read The Book of Tobit.
Prayer to St. Raphael for the Wise Choice of a Marriage Partner
O Glorious St. Raphael, Patron and Lover of the Young, I call upon thee  and plead with thee for thy help. In all confidence I open my heart to thee, to beg thy guidance and assistance in the important task of planning my future. Obtain for me through thy intercession the light of God’s grace, so that I may decide wisely concerning the person who is to be my partner through life. O Angel of Happy Meetings, lead us by the hand to find each other. May all our movements be guided by thy light and transfigured by thy joy. As thou didst lead the young Tobias to Sara and opened up for him a new life of happiness with her in holy marriage, lead me to such a one whom in thine angelic wisdom thou dost judge best suited to be united with me in marriage.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 05:54:42 AM
Yes and no.  Sins once confessed are forgiven but at the same time sin has consequences that can affect relationships ... just as Baptism remits the actual sin but not the consequences of sin.

There are many longer-term consequences of sɛҳuąƖ sin and I believe that spouses have a right to know.  In getting married, the spouse should have exclusive lifelong access to this kind of intimacy and that includes pre-marriage.  So the spouse is being unjustly denied something to which he or she should have had a right.

Those with pasts try to lean on absolution forgiving sins.  Yes, that’s true.  But you forget about the temporal effects of sin.  So, for instance, a virgin has every right to know whether a prospective spouse used to sleep with 10 different people a week.  That would affect the person’s attitudes towards them, could make them more likely to be unfaithful, and there could even be STDs involved.

You should have thought about these consequences before fornicating.  Nice try though.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 06:02:46 AM
I myself have a sinful past and I wouldn't want a potential spouse to know about it.

You should have thought about that before fornicating.  So a virgin would have every right to have expectations to marry the same.  Just because you confess and are forgiven a sin of theft doesn’t mean that there isn’t an injustice there that has to be made up for by restitution.  Now, the party from who you stole could forgive the debt but they don’t have to.  In having fornicated you are depriving the prospective spouse of something they have a right to ... exclusive lifelong intimacy.  So if you were to date a virgin, that person must be told that you’re not one so they can decide whether to forgive that debt.  If a prospective spouse asks you, you have to give an honest answer and not lie.  Lying could be grounds for annulment.  If you lied and claimed you were a virgin, that’s misrepresentation that could have altered the person’s decision to marry you.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: 2Vermont on December 24, 2020, 07:42:39 AM
For example virginity, how many partners, whether one was abused or not, etc?

Pamphleteer Fr. Daniel Lord, SJ said that the answer is NO, assuming that the sin had been confessed and it was not being committed anymore.

I myself have a sinful past and I wouldn't want a potential spouse to know about it.
Would you rather your spouse found out about it some other way?  See my signature.  I think it prudent to be open and honest with a potential spouse.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 07:47:11 AM
I agree with the comments above, which say they do have a right to know.   "sin has consequences that can affect relationships "

"a virgin has every right to know whether a prospective spouse used to sleep with 10 different people a week.  That would affect the person’s attitudes towards them, could make them more likely to be unfaithful, and there could even be STDs involved."

Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 08:01:37 AM
" whether one was abused or not,"

This can also have huge ramifications, so yes, a potential spouse would have a right to know this as well. 

Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Matthew on December 24, 2020, 08:06:47 AM
You should have thought about that before fornicating.  So a virgin would have every right to have expectations to marry the same.  Just because you confess and are forgiven a sin of theft doesn’t mean that there isn’t an injustice there that has to be made up for by restitution.  Now, the party from who you stole could forgive the debt but they don’t have to.  In having fornicated you are depriving the prospective spouse of something they have a right to ... exclusive lifelong intimacy.  So if you were to date a virgin, that person must be told that you’re not one so they can decide whether to forgive that debt.  If a prospective spouse asks you, you have to give an honest answer and not lie.  Lying could be grounds for annulment.  If you lied and claimed you were a virgin, that’s misrepresentation that could have altered the person’s decision to marry you.

This.

It's borderline misrepresentation, which is grounds for an annulment. If your spouse kept themselves pure for marriage, they certainly deserve to marry a virgin. Now they might CHOOSE to waive that right for various reasons (their own looks, slim pickins' in the spouse department, difficulty finding a spouse), but it must be THEIR CHOICE. "Virginity or no" is NOT a minor issue, but one that affects the rest of your life. There are statistics that show the greater # of partners, the smaller chance of a successful marriage.

I don't know if this applies to men as well (let's face it, men and women are different), but scientific data shows that for females (at least) the ability to pair-bond is seriously degraded with EACH added "partner".

But even if the virgin spouse was feeling lovey-dovey and accepted it at first, when the CONSEQUENCES reared their ugly head years down the road, that spouse might change his mind about accepting your "past". Talk about resentment which could destroy a marriage.

I believe once you accept something like that, you can't change your mind later and use it as grounds for an annulment. HOWEVER, the consequences will still be there. In other words, you could easily end up with a BAD MARRIAGE even if you don't end up with a NON-MARRIAGE. Wouldn't that be even worse?

Lastly, there's a world of difference between "dredging up old sins" and going into names, details -- and a quick "FYI, I'm not a virgin" or "I used to sleep around", or "I have been intimate with several people".

YES your future spouse has a right to know.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 09:54:43 AM
Absolutely if one is not a virgin that should be told before the wedding.  Also if someone has viewed pornography intentionally even ONE time it should be disclosed.  Why?  Because pornography use by men has the similar effect against pair-bonding that pre-marital sex has on women.  We have been told by our priests that one use of porn can destroy a man's natural attraction for real women for life.  Every woman has a right to know if her potential spouse is a habitual self-abuser.  That will ruin a marriage.  Sex addiction (I don't really believe it's an addiction but I use that term because it's well understood) is not to be dismissed or tolerated.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 10:11:01 AM
Matthew is right on one point in particular; It is different for men.

If it is a woman asking then, you should probably tell them. Not so sure about their being a "right". 

If it is a man, then just don't tell . 
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Mithrandylan on December 24, 2020, 10:15:53 AM
I think people are using the word 'right' in a more colloquial sense. In the strict sense of the word-- as something to which one is entitled by virtue of the natural or supernatural law-- I find it very difficult to assert that someone is entitled to know the sɛҳuąƖ history of a non-spouse.  I think what people are more saying is that whether or not a spouse is a virgin or a chronic masturbator is going to factor into their evaluation of the spouse's fitness, and hence, is something they would like to know and have reason to know.  And yet, I think in most cases it would not really be a right to know.
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Rights and duties correspond, so if one person has a proper right to a certain piece of information it means another has a proper duty to provide it.  Is it the case that fornicators and the like, especially when they are repentant, are duty bound to disclose their past to others?  At what point?  Is it first date kind of stuff? Engagement kind of stuff?  At what point has the fornicator morally sinned in failing to disclose?  This seems like Scarlet letter type stuff. 
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Here's where it could become a right.  Suppose a virgin suitor says they would never marry a non-virgin. At that point, their consent to marry enters into the picture, and the non-virgin suitor would seem to indeed have a proper duty to disclose, probably out of charity and to prevent them from consenting to something that they would not otherwise consent to.
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All that said, it seems that in general, prudence suggests disclosing for a few reasons, even if there is no proper duty/right to give or receive the disclosure. There is a good chance such information will be revealed later anyways: social media being what it is, people's histories being shamelessly advertised, etc., suggest that a non-virgin spouse will eventually be found out.  Better to disclose it at some point in the courtship than for it to come out later, and possibly risk the other spouse feeling betrayed.  For men disclosing pornography use to their girlfriend's, same idea. Especially if the use has been 'addictive', because it is unlikely, in a digital world, that such a secret will be able to be maintained forever.  None of this constitutes a duty/right, I do not think, but something can be the best thing to do without there actually being a duty to do it.
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It being a question of prudence (i.e., good moral/situational judgment), there will be cases where it is prudent to not disclose, too.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 10:41:28 AM
If one says to a potential spouse that they would never want to marry a non-virgin, the other doesn't have to disclose anything if they don't want to.  They can just walk away.  No harm, no foul.  You can always wait until you find the perfect spouse.  Maybe they will never show up.  But at least you didn't marry a non-virgin.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: SimpleMan on December 24, 2020, 10:46:40 AM
In at least broad brushstrokes, then yes, I'd say the spouses need to know one another's past sɛҳuąƖ history.  Even if, just for the sake of argument, one does not have a "right", still, it's a "better to know" scenario.  And someone having "slipped" once or twice is a whole different critter from having been a whore or a whoremonger.  (I use those terms in the broad sense, not necessarily indicating sex-for-money.)  And the way things are getting nowadays, seems everybody under 30 wants to be the gender and the identity other than what they were born with --- as though people should just be born with an interchangeable set of Lego parts for pudenda virila vel muliebre! --- any gαy exploits, other than perhaps a single drunken incident or two (women nowadays are getting pretty adventurous in that regard, perhaps because many of them hate men so much?), should be disclosed as well.  I'd want to know in either instance.

But let me pose this question --- would substantial error about the sɛҳuąƖ past of a spouse have been grounds for annulment before Vatican II?  I know, nowadays, you can often get an "annulment" just for your jib having been cut differently than what your partner had in mind, but "back in the day"?  If it would have been, can someone supply a source?

And in the interests of full disclosure, Deo gratias, I was a male virgin on my wedding night --- I'd been no simon-pure saint, I'd done things I shouldn't have done (and which have long since been burnt up in the confessional), yes, they involved real-life women, but in the strict technical sense, I was a virgin.  I shall not speak one way or the other about my wife, we are divorced (she lives in mortal sin with an illicit consort) but in the Eyes of God we are husband and wife, and she is the mother of my son.  (Considering the circuмstances, we actually get along quite amicably.)
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Mithrandylan on December 24, 2020, 11:00:06 AM
But let me pose this question --- would substantial error about the sɛҳuąƖ past of a spouse have been grounds for annulment before Vatican II?  I know, nowadays, you can often get an "annulment" just for your jib having been cut differently than what your partner had in mind, but "back in the day"?  If it would have been, can someone supply a source?
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Only in a case of conditional consent. Conditional consent is when the vow given is 'I will to marry you as long as...'.
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Conditional consent is notoriously difficult to prove.  In most cases of it being claimed, no annulment is given for that reason.  I think that failure to disclose a sɛҳuąƖ past could theoretically annul a marriage if the other person clearly manifested their consent on that past being a certain way. It would be possible, though rare.
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However, here is something to think about-- not touching the validity of the marriage so much as the rectitude and wisdom of such behavior.  The Catholic view of virginity is one that associates with virtue (chastity, in particular).  The reason that virginity is desirable is, in large part, due to it being a precondition to perfect chastity.  But a non-virgin can be just short of perfectly chaste, supposing the right repentance and reform.  If a man refuses her, still, on the grounds of her non-virginity, it seems superstitious rather than Catholic. 
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There is of course the psychological aspect of things, but that is just psychological. Not to say it doesn't matter, only to say it is not as important as the virtue of chastity. 
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Geremia on December 24, 2020, 11:44:29 AM
This is the question of self-detraction:
McHugh & Callan Moral Theology (https://isidore.co/calibre#panel=book_details&book_id=5547):
Quote
1577. Is self-detraction, that is, the revelation of some real fault or defect, lawful?

(a) If there is question of faults or defects that are of a public nature and generally known, a disclosure made in a good spirit and in a proper manner, and from which beneficial and not harmful results can be foreseen, is lawful, and sometimes obligatory. Example: Balbus has calumniated his neighbors, and he now admits the fact, not to boast about or excuse it, but to make satisfaction; he does not repeat the details of his defamatory remarks, but merely states that he wishes to retract what he had no right to say; he has every reason to think that his present course will undo the harm caused by the defamation. Balbus does right in thus acknowledging his mistake.

(b) If there is question of faults or defects not generally known, the reasons for mentioning them should be more serious, unless the sins are of a trifling nature. Examples: Caius once served a term in jail for dishonesty, but he is now a decent citizen. His family would be scandalized and would feel disgraced, if they knew this. But Caius thinks it would be a suitable reparation to tell them of his former guilt. Caius is wrong. To speak of his past experience would only add the sin of scandal to the old one, and there are other ways in which he can do penance in further expiation of dishonesty. Claudius wishes to marry Sempronia, but the latter insists that there must be no secrets between husband and wife, and that he must give her complete and accurate answers on certain questions about his past career—for example, whether he has ever been drunk, whether he has ever wished to be drunk, whether he has ever had questionable relations with other women, etc. Claudius should not deceive Sempronia, nor leave her in ignorance of any serious objection to the marriage, even if she forgot to mention it in her questions; but he owes it to himself not to put himself in her power by giving her information which she would probably use against him then or later. Titus has stolen a considerable sum, and, for the sake of getting advice and direction on how to make restitution, he consults a prudent friend who will regard his communication as confidential, just as if he were a confessor. Titus does not act against his own reputation by telling his case to this friend.
Thus, no, the "potential spouse" has no "right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage".
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 11:49:27 AM
I believe honesty in all things prior to marriage and during marriage. 
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Matthew on December 24, 2020, 12:53:17 PM
It's not about having "no secrets at all" between husband and wife. That's a bit much. But some little factoids affect the wife, the marriage, and the family -- so I believe those things she has a right to. Just the basic facts "is he a virgin or not", "does he have kids by another woman or not", "was he married before or not", "does he have any venereal diseases", etc.

You can't tell me a spouse doesn't have a right to know these things about their spouse-to-be. How can you consent to something you don't know? If he's had lots of women in the past,  it's highly likely in this age of DNA tests and the Internet that one of these women will come around seeking child support, or one of his bastard children will want to meet their dad. How would that not screw up a "good Catholic family" he started later with a virgin Catholic woman?

Think of all the explaining he'd have to do to his legitimate children -- of all ages. How they have brothers and sisters they hadn't met yet for some reason. Think of all the birds-and-bees discussions that would have to take place before the proper time.

Now that virgin spouse might waive his right to not have to deal with such soap opera drama - but that should be his choice.

Here's one solution to deal with non-virgin "non-disclosers" -- make sure you make it clear -- perhaps before witnesses and in writing -- that you would only marry a non-virgin, and that you'd divorce anyone who deceived you on this matter. Then if it comes out later that he lied, at least you'd have some chance of getting an annulment for his blatant misrepresentation and deception to procure the marriage contract. Such fundamental, cut-and-dried deception would clearly invalidate the marriage.

Oh, and if I were a young lady, I would definitely do my DUE DILIGENCE and look into the man's past. Look him up on social media, pose as a high school friend and see what you can find out, etc. I'd probably pay the $30 or $60 fee to do a background check. Or a few hundred dollars for a private investigator. Think that's excessive? You can't be too careful these days. We're talking about avoiding a life of misery, loneliness (divorced but can't remarry), poverty, strife, etc.  I think a few hundred dollars would be well spent to avoid that! Oh, and as a bonus (since you never married "the wrong guy"), you might also GET a nice Catholic man, loving family, beautiful Catholic household, many beautiful well-raised Catholic children, grandchildren, etc. as a bonus! A few hundred dollars sounds like a bargain now...
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Matthew on December 24, 2020, 01:03:59 PM
This is the question of self-detraction:
McHugh & Callan Moral Theology (https://isidore.co/calibre#panel=book_details&book_id=5547):Thus, no, the "potential spouse" has no "right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage".

Claudius should not deceive Sempronia, nor leave her in ignorance of any serious objection to the marriage, even if she forgot to mention it in her questions;

Drunkenness doesn't leave permanent damage the way having multiple sex partners does. It is *impossible* to look at sex the same way when you've had *one* lifetime partner vs. when you've been with many partners. It's human psychology and there are no exceptions. The data show the success rate for marriage plummets the more sex partners there was before the marriage.

How could a potential spouse NOT have the right to know he's about to enter marriage "on hard mode"? That seems pretty fundamental to me.

As I said above: a man who had sex partners before marriage could mean (for the eventual, possibly virgin spouse): 
- venereal disease
- complications related to inheritance, child support
- additional financial burden on the virgin wife, if bastard child(ren) and/or child support comes into the picture AFTER his marriage with her
- soap opera-tier drama from ex-girlfriends, bastard children
- less chance of success for the marriage
- the man will be less psychologically bound to his wife than she is to him, due to HIS reduced ability to pair-bond
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Yeti on December 24, 2020, 02:25:29 PM
For example virginity, how many partners, whether one was abused or not, etc?

Pamphleteer Fr. Daniel Lord, SJ said that the answer is NO, assuming that the sin had been confessed and it was not being committed anymore.

I myself have a sinful past and I wouldn't want a potential spouse to know about it.
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Fr. Daniel Lord was a Jesuit before Vatican 2. He lived in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. He devoted his whole life to guiding young people. He wrote dozens of books and pamphlets on youth, marriage, and family life.
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In addition to the spectacular Jesuit formation he received, he possessed a level of experience in the care of souls, and trust from his superiors, that no priest alive today could claim, let alone someone on an internet forum.
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Go with what Fr. Lord says.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 02:35:02 PM
Also if someone has viewed pornography intentionally even ONE time it should be disclosed.  Why?  Because pornography use by men has the similar effect against pair-bonding that pre-marital sex has on women.  We have been told by our priests that one use of porn can destroy a man's natural attraction for real women for life.  Every woman has a right to know if her potential spouse is a habitual self-abuser.  That will ruin a marriage.
If every trad followed your advice, then no trad marriage would ever happen again or... porn usage will be increasingly publicly normalized in trad circles because of the commonplace admission of committing the sin. I do not calumny trads when I say that 95% of trad men have viewed pornography "even one time" in their life. Multiple trad priests said that the #1 and #2 confessed sins from men in the twin sins of viewing pornography and self-abuse. Put yourself in their shoes: they have strong desires as young adults but moral qualms against fornication and adultery. 
Also, where do you draw the line at pornography? MTV music video? A PG-13 movie? Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition? Sears catalog?
Why not demand that if someone has self-abused even one time it should be disclosed? 
Why not demand that if someone has entertained impure thoughts even one time it should be disclosed? 

Maybe you should have been a priest if you want people to confess everything to you.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 02:41:40 PM
So far we have two pre-conciliar priests with imprimatur-ed beliefs in the negative; none so far in the affirmative.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 04:48:01 PM
Oh, and if I were a young lady, I would definitely do my DUE DILIGENCE and look into the man's past. Look him up on social media, pose as a high school friend and see what you can find out, etc. I'd probably pay the $30 or $60 fee to do a background check. Or a few hundred dollars for a private investigator. Think that's excessive? You can't be too careful these days. We're talking about avoiding a life of misery, loneliness (divorced but can't remarry), poverty, strife, etc.  I think a few hundred dollars would be well spent to avoid that! Oh, and as a bonus (since you never married "the wrong guy"), you might also GET a nice Catholic man, loving family, beautiful Catholic household, many beautiful well-raised Catholic children, grandchildren, etc. as a bonus! A few hundred dollars sounds like a bargain now...
What about medical proof the fiancé's not impotent or the fiancée's a virgin?
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 04:51:38 PM
Here's one solution to deal with non-virgin "non-disclosers" -- make sure you make it clear -- perhaps before witnesses and in writing -- that you would only marry a non-virgin, and that you'd divorce anyone who deceived you on this matter. Then if it comes out later that he lied, at least you'd have some chance of getting an annulment for his blatant misrepresentation and deception to procure the marriage contract. Such fundamental, cut-and-dried deception would clearly invalidate the marriage.
That sounds like a pre-nup. Why not just do a virginity test?
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: 2Vermont on December 24, 2020, 05:21:38 PM
This is the question of self-detraction:
McHugh & Callan Moral Theology (https://isidore.co/calibre#panel=book_details&book_id=5547):Thus, no, the "potential spouse" has no "right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage".
Claudius should not deceive Sempronia, nor leave her in ignorance of any serious objection to the marriage, even if she forgot to mention it in her questions; but he owes it to himself not to put himself in her power by giving her information which she would probably use against him then or later.

Interesting.  I read the bolded (and underlined) differently.  To me, it sounds like McHugh and Callan are saying he should tell her something as serious as one's sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage BUT not to tell her things that she would use against him.

I would say that if there is even a hint that Sempronia would use that information against Claudius, then they already have bigger problems than his previous sɛҳuąƖ history and probably shouldn't get married anyway.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: 2Vermont on December 24, 2020, 05:25:38 PM
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Fr. Daniel Lord was a Jesuit before Vatican 2. He lived in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. He devoted his whole life to guiding young people. He wrote dozens of books and pamphlets on youth, marriage, and family life.
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In addition to the spectacular Jesuit formation he received, he possessed a level of experience in the care of souls, and trust from his superiors, that no priest alive today could claim, let alone someone on an internet forum.
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Go with what Fr. Lord says.
See, I would want to actually read what Fr Lord said before going on what the OP said he said.  
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Yeti on December 24, 2020, 05:34:49 PM
It's borderline misrepresentation, which is grounds for an annulment.
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No. The only kind of misrepresentation that would have been grounds for an annulment before Vatican 2 was error of identity, i.e. if someone claimed to be someone different from who they actually were. This doesn't mean someone claimed to be a millionaire and actually wasn't. It means someone claimed to be someone else, as in, I tell some woman I am Brad Pitt, and get a good make-up artist to make me look like him. It's a pretty far-fetched scenario, obviously, and so was basically every other annulment scenario in Catholic times. That's why there were only a few dozen annulments granted by Rome each year in the entire world before Vatican 2. I believe I heard the most common reason for an annulment by the Catholic Church was impotency at the time marriage was contracted.
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Remember the story of Jacob in the Old Testament? That is an example of personal identity being misrepresented. Jacob decided to marry Rachel, and received her from her father Laban in marriage. In the actual wedding ceremony, Laban had his other daughter Lia show up, claiming to be Rachel. She was heavily veiled, as was the custom, so Jacob couldn't see her face, but she lied and said she was Rachel. It's a little hard to know why Jacob didn't notice the voice sounded different, but anyway, he thought the person who made her promises to him was Rachel, due to a deliberate deception perpetrated against him.
.
That's the only type of deception that would invalidate a marriage promise. I guess now in the Vatican 2 church they hand out annulments for any type of deception before marriage, but they don't accept what the Catholic Church teaches about the sacraments or much of anything else.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 06:07:13 PM
OP here. I was mistaken about the authorship. It was not a Fr. Lord pamphlet but rather QUESTIONS YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN ASK BEFORE MARRIAGE by Donald F. Miller, C.Ss.R.

Imprimi Potest: John N. McCormick, C.Ss.R, Provincial, St. Louis Province, Redemptorist Fathers November 20, 1961
Imprimatur: + Joseph Cardinal Ritter, Archbishop of St. Louis, November 24, 1961 

Here is the relevant text:

Quote
Should an Engaged Girl Reveal Her Past? PART I 

Problem: I am engaged and looking forward to a very happy marriage. But there is one doubt in my mind that seems to cast a shadow over my happiness. Long before I met my fiance, I fell into sin with another person. This has long since been confessed and deeply repented. The doubt in my mind is whether I should tell my husband-to-be about this previous fall. Is such a confession necessary or even advisable for persons about to be married? I dread the thought of it; but do not want anything to stand in the way of our happiness. 

Solution: It is neither necessary nor advisable to make a confession of your past life to the man you are about to marry. You made your confession through the priest to God, and your sin was forgiven. The only lasting effect the sin should have on your life is to keep you humble, grateful for the forgiveness you received, and more and more dependent on God’s help to remain good. But there is no reason for your revealing the past to anyone. Sometimes a man who wants to marry a girl tries to insist that she tell him whether she had ever in her life lapsed from virtue. This is an unjust demand, an uncalled for probing into the secret and sacred conscience of another. A girl has no obligation of making a personal confession even in the face of such demands. Indeed, she may even recognize in such demands a danger sign: they may be motivated by an excessively jealous spirit that would cause her great sorrow after marriage. Even in the case that a boy or girl in love might suggest that they make mutual confessions to each other, the idea should be resisted and rejected. Lovers and engaged couples should be content to be able to say to each other that they cherish the grace of God and freedom from sin above all other goods, and that they will be loyal to each other for the whole of their lives. Moreover, it is more important that they help each other to avoid sin in their own pre-marriage association than that they worry about their own or their partner’s repented past.

Quote
Should an Engaged Girl Reveal Her Past? PART II

Problem: We are several girls in our late teens who would like to disagree with an opinion you expressed several months ago. You said that a man had no right to ask a girl whom he wanted to marry whether she had previously fallen from virtue, and that the girl had no obligation of admitting anything about her past to her fiance. We think that if a man wants to know what kind of girl he is marrying he should be allowed to ask her about her past, and that she should honestly tell him. After all, it is important to a man to know that he is marrying a good girl. 

Solution: We are in perfect agreement with the statement that it is important for a man to know that he is marrying a good girl. It is the purpose of the period of company-keeping to provide a man with assurance on this point, and equally so to provide the girl with assurance that he is a good man. By going together for several months, a man and woman can learn all they need to know about the ideals and moral characters of each other, if both are interested enough in this matter to look for and draw out from the other the spiritual and moral principles that are considered of greatest importance. A girl who lacks character and sound moral principles will not be able to hide her lack from a man who really considers such things necessary for a happy marriage. And a man who has not acquired solid virtue will clearly manifest his weakness to a girl who realizes that without it a happy marriage could not be hoped for. This testing of each other’s characters on the part of a boy and girl keeping company does not require open and complete revelations of each one’s past. We have set it down, and we repeat, that it is a general presumption that it is not wise for two people preparing for marriage to make full confessions to each other. It is not good for a man to demand of a girl whom he might ask to marry him that she tell him whether or how she ever fell into sin in the past. In our experience, we have found that most men who insist on being told such things have had rather chequered careers themselves. themselves, and have a leaning toward an unhealthy, not to say morbid, kind of jealousy. There are exceptions, of course, and our presumption, that in general it is best to leave the past buried, leaves room for them. It still remains possible, we believe, for a man to learn all he needs to know about a girl, even up to whether she has ever been a sinner or not, without asking direct questions or demanding revelations. And it is possible for a girl to learn through company keeping whether the man she is going with hates sin, loves virtue, and is willing to face the sacrifices and responsibilities involved. The sad thing is that so many are not interested in these supremely important matters.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 06:13:41 PM
It's borderline misrepresentation, which is grounds for an annulment. 

How does a member of the Resistance get an annulment? 
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: SimpleMan on December 24, 2020, 10:35:34 PM
That sounds like a pre-nup. Why not just do a virginity test?
"Virginity tests" are impossible to do on a man.  The conventional wisdom nowadays, is that demanding physical evidence of a woman's non-virginity (i.e., intact hymen) is an injustice, because any number of things can happen --- she might be born without one, it might be defective in some way, it may have been torn open through some physical injury, or what have you.  On the other hand, the wisdom nowadays is that some women's hymens can remain intact after intercourse --- not to get too crude, but they "stretch" --- and that hymens can grow back together.  Both would be more likely "if she'd only done it once or twice", as many claim.  Being jaundiced as I am about any propaganda coming from the secularized world, and a world that cares nothing about premarital virginity, I suspect that the "conventional wisdom" is exaggerated (to help women concoct lies about themselves, and to "slap" men to whom such things are important), but not entirely false.  Think of the non-Western cultures that demand premarital examination, and the consequences for women in those cultures who have lost or damaged their hymens through no fault of their own.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: SimpleMan on December 24, 2020, 11:06:05 PM
(my responses in italics with asterisks for ease of reading --- SM)

You can't tell me a spouse doesn't have a right to know these things about their spouse-to-be. How can you consent to something you don't know? If he's had lots of women in the past,  it's highly likely in this age of DNA tests and the Internet that one of these women will come around seeking child support, or one of his bastard children will want to meet their dad. How would that not screw up a "good Catholic family" he started later with a virgin Catholic woman?

Think of all the explaining he'd have to do to his legitimate children -- of all ages. How they have brothers and sisters they hadn't met yet for some reason. Think of all the birds-and-bees discussions that would have to take place before the proper time.

***How true, how true!  It absolutely tickles the you-know-what out of me, that DNA tests now allow paternity to be proven, as part of the larger picture of gaining knowledge of one's family tree and hitherto unknown distant relatives.  You always know who the mother is, but as for the father... how many men have been duped into raising another man's child?  Isn't that cuckolding in the extreme?  That's why I say, birth control (and even more so, sterilization) allows both husbands and wives to make fools out of each other, because they can have all sorts of sɛҳuąƖ exploits without ever getting caught up, or having fear of unwanted pregnancies.  But what about when it fails, or one or the other strays in a moment of recklessness and doesn't use the BC?  A woman can always pass off the child as her husband's, barring any drastic difference in appearance (most of all an obvious racial one! --- "I can explain, dear, my family was Dark Irish!" :jester:) --- and the man who fathered the child, without paternity testing, is likewise scot-free.

Now here's a soap opera for you.  Recently I got my son an AncestryDNA test, like the one I took myself about a year ago.  Sure enough, my son is absolutely, positively, infallibly mine, but... lo and behold, in the past month or so, guess what, I've got a new cousin out there, that I'd never heard of before, and I know who all my first and second cousins are (or I thought I did!).  The number of centimorgans (DNA markers, or something like that) is right on the cusp of his being my full-blood first cousin, or a first cousin once removed.  IOW, he is the son of either one of my four blood uncles (more likely), or one of my male first cousins (less likely).  Three of my four blood uncles had, ahem, issues with fidelity, one very much so.  My male first cousins, all over the map, from relative chastity to absolutely whoremongery.  Interesting family. The question "who could his father have been?" has been a huge topic of discussion with my parents the past few days.  (I have long ago drifted apart from my extended family, that happens when people move, don't see each other, and die.)  For us, it's merely a point of speculation. But think about the poor man who is my hitherto unknown cousin! In all likelihood, he's gone his whole life, thinking that his father is someone that he really wasn't!  Talk about getting emotionally hit by a semi-truck!  (My son knows it all, knows everything about "the birds and the bees" that it is possible to know --- very curious kid --- and I was able to use this as an object lesson in chastity, IOW, "keep it zipped!".)


Oh, and if I were a young lady, I would definitely do my DUE DILIGENCE and look into the man's past. Look him up on social media, pose as a high school friend and see what you can find out, etc. I'd probably pay the $30 or $60 fee to do a background check. Or a few hundred dollars for a private investigator. Think that's excessive? You can't be too careful these days. We're talking about avoiding a life of misery, loneliness (divorced but can't remarry), poverty, strife, etc.  I think a few hundred dollars would be well spent to avoid that! Oh, and as a bonus (since you never married "the wrong guy"), you might also GET a nice Catholic man, loving family, beautiful Catholic household, many beautiful well-raised Catholic children, grandchildren, etc. as a bonus! A few hundred dollars sounds like a bargain now...

***You will never waste money on a good private detective.  Without getting too specific, I had reason to hire a PI, as well as an attorney who obtained some information for me that, let's just say, I'm not supposed to know.  It was to protect a family member.  Cost me $450 in all, and boy oh boy, was it ever worth every penny! If you ever even think there's an issue that needs looking into, do it.  Hire that PI.  I know.  How well do I know!  And there was another incident in my life where I didn't hire a PI --- didn't want to spend the money (oooh, that's right, gotta save that money, don't spend that money) --- and I could have saved myself a lot of heartache, if I had hired one.  It's water under the bridge now, but it could have saved not only me, but people I care about, a ton of suffering.  Let me repeat.  Hire that PI.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 24, 2020, 11:44:05 PM
"Virginity tests" are impossible to do on a man.  The conventional wisdom nowadays, is that demanding physical evidence of a woman's non-virginity (i.e., intact hymen) is an injustice, because any number of things can happen --- she might be born without one, it might be defective in some way, it may have been torn open through some physical injury, or what have you.  On the other hand, the wisdom nowadays is that some women's hymens can remain intact after intercourse --- not to get too crude, but they "stretch" --- and that hymens can grow back together.  Both would be more likely "if she'd only done it once or twice", as many claim.  Being jaundiced as I am about any propaganda coming from the secularized world, and a world that cares nothing about premarital virginity, I suspect that the "conventional wisdom" is exaggerated (to help women concoct lies about themselves, and to "slap" men to whom such things are important), but not entirely false.  Think of the non-Western cultures that demand premarital examination, and the consequences for women in those cultures who have lost or damaged their hymens through no fault of their own.
Oh bullshit. I've been hearing that crap about women "riding horses or playing sports" for decades. Almost no women riding horses and very few women play sports. Also, what kind of sports would break a hymen?
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: SimpleMan on December 25, 2020, 01:04:03 AM
Oh bullshit. I've been hearing that crap about women "riding horses or playing sports" for decades. Almost no women riding horses and very few women play sports. Also, what kind of sports would break a hymen?
Actually, your thoughts echo my own to a large extent --- I've had to roll my eyes at the "riding accident" scenario myself (just anecdotal, I've never heard anyone claim that) --- but that said, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt in certain cases.  It's my understanding that the fragility of women's hymens varies widely.  I do realize, also, that in less sɛҳuąƖly liberal times, many women felt the need to have a "cover story" to explain their lack of intactness to their husbands.  Perhaps nowadays, that kind of bullshit, as you put it, isn't seen as being nearly as necessary.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 25, 2020, 02:16:36 AM
Because pornography use by men has the similar effect against pair-bonding that pre-marital sex has on women. We have been told by our priests that one use of porn can destroy a man's natural attraction for real women for life.  That will ruin a marriage.
Take it from a former porn/self-abuse addict: the destruction of the man's natural attraction for women is NOT "for life". It bounces back within days and within months the porn-addled mindset, which usually causes fetishistic desires, is gone. Don't believe me? Look up the NoPorn and NoFap movements. Hundreds of thousands of secular men are fighting their battles with porn and self-abuse. Even science shows that the "rewiring" that porn does to the brain is undone when porn is no longer used. I also disagree that looking at pictures destructs pair-bonding, similarly to what fornication does to women. I think most any trad woman would prefer that her potential husband watched porn and self-abused thousands of times rather than fornicated with even one woman. I think men would agree in the opposite situation. Those priests are wrong on those points.
However, porn and self-abuse during a marriage can destroy it. Aside from taking away the man's desire for his wife, it can also cause him to pressure his wife into fetishes (uncomfortable in the least or physically/morally dangerous at worst) to satiate his porn-addled brain. It will cause the man to spend time away from work and his children. Not to mention the destruction of spiritual graces or even demonic activity that mortal sin brings.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 25, 2020, 11:38:05 AM
It's definitely something they need to know before committing to you for the rest of their lives. Omitting the truth can often be just as bad as lying. 
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 25, 2020, 12:56:50 PM
It's definitely something they need to know before committing to you for the rest of their lives. Omitting the truth can often be just as bad as lying.
People have cited two priests that have said otherwise. That's much more compelling than your opinion.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: SimpleMan on December 25, 2020, 02:24:54 PM
People have cited two priests that have said otherwise. That's much more compelling than your opinion.
Well, that may be true, but we are all our own free agents, we all have lives to live and try to make sure they turn out halfway right, and just for my part, I'd want to know, at least in broad brushstrokes, and I would both be willing to, and be willing to be expected to, paint my own broad brushstrokes.  If I were single in the Eyes of God, and contemplating marriage, my intended and I would, at some point, be having the "now, there aren't going to be any 'Easter eggs' come up one of these days than neither of us expect, something or someone that could pop out of the woodwork, are there? --- anything that I'd want to know about now, instead of finding out later, right?". 

Again, if in doubt --- or maybe even if there is no doubt --- just do yourself a favor, and hire that PI.  If you don't, and it blows up in your face later, at least some stranger on the Internet will have warned you.  If you do, and nothing ever comes of it, no harm, no foul, the $450 you'll spend is about the price of a halfway-good-quality suit of clothes.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 25, 2020, 03:24:02 PM
People have cited two priests that have said otherwise. That's much more compelling than your opinion.
Priests don't get married. Cheers!
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 25, 2020, 04:01:14 PM
"Virginity tests" are impossible to do on a man.  The conventional wisdom nowadays, is that demanding physical evidence of a woman's non-virginity (i.e., intact hymen) is an injustice, because any number of things can happen --- she might be born without one, it might be defective in some way, it may have been torn open through some physical injury, or what have you.  

And what's the problem? If the man is demanding what the woman judges as not just, the woman will reject him. You're talking about a non-issue. 
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 25, 2020, 04:12:55 PM
Priests don't get married. Cheers!
That's a Prot argument. Might as well ignore all moral theology about sex, since priests don't have sex, right? Hell, why listen to them on marriage at all? I want to divorce my haggard old wife and marry my hot young secretary. 
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Nadir on December 25, 2020, 04:41:51 PM
Again, if in doubt --- or maybe even if there is no doubt --- just do yourself a favor, and hire that PI.  If you don't, and it blows up in your face later,
If you are so inclined to hire someone to spy on her then she should not marry YOU. I would never trust a man who had such little trust in me. Better not to marry at all. Or find another man.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: SimpleMan on December 25, 2020, 04:58:02 PM
If you are so inclined to hire someone to spy on her then she should not marry YOU. I would never trust a man who had such little trust in me. Better not to marry at all. Or find another man.
She'd never know.  If my investigation turned up nothing, no harm done.  If it did turn up an unknown deal-killer, then better to know, and then move on.  I would not have a problem in the world with being investigated, without my knowledge, by a potential spouse.  In fact, in today's world, especially when people often marry someone they haven't known until they were in their twenties, thirties, forties, or even beyond, I think a woman who did not have me investigated, would be just a little naive.  Wouldn't bother me in the least.  If she never told me, then I'd never know (just to state the obvious).  If she did tell me, I'd say "you didn't know me from childhood, I don't blame you in the least, shows me you've got a good head on your shoulders".  Different people have a problem, or don't have a problem, with different things.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 25, 2020, 05:08:45 PM
If you are so inclined to hire someone to spy on her then she should not marry YOU. I would never trust a man who had such little trust in me. Better not to marry at all. Or find another man.
It's a catch-22. If you marry a woman without investigating, then you risk marrying someone you wouldn't want to marry. But if you investigate a woman you intend to marry, then you run the risk of her not liking that you had her investigated.
I'd rather take the latter risk.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: SimpleMan on December 25, 2020, 05:23:23 PM
It's a catch-22. If you marry a woman without investigating, then you risk marrying someone you wouldn't want to marry. But if you investigate a woman you intend to marry, then you run the risk of her not liking that you had her investigated.
I'd rather take the latter risk.
As I said above --- don't tell her.  Private investigators don't go to the people they've investigated and say "hey, I investigated you".  Who else is going to tell?  The banker on whom you wrote the check to pay the PI?  You don't find out anything, nothing comes of the investigation, then no harm done.  Find out something, then you know.

And this must be said, the question that begs to be asked and answered, is whether a PI could ever find out whether someone was a virgin or not.  That's pretty private stuff.  And even if they're not, finding out the extent of their sɛҳuąƖ history is getting information that some people just don't discuss with anyone.  PIs don't have some kind of "magic wand" or access to secret information that only they (and possibly the police, if it's a criminal matter) have access to.  When I had a certain person investigated to protect the welfare of a family member, I asked the PI.  She said "aside from things tied to social security numbers, credit, and the like, we don't have access to anything, that you wouldn't have access to, if you were willing to spend some time on it, and do things like set up fake social media accounts to tap into their private sites" (or words to that effect).  Between the PI and the attorney with whom I was working, I eliminated my worst fears, but I found out a lot of stuff I wouldn't otherwise have known, information that was very useful to me, in assessing the risk to that family member.  That, coupled with my own online sleuthing, left me with a high level of peace of mind.  Well worth it.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 25, 2020, 05:31:07 PM
A man who would insist that a potential spouse spread for the doctor to verify physical integrity is shameful. 
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 25, 2020, 05:37:47 PM
I know 2 priest who said, tell all.  Also, the sin is forgiven by God,not forgotten by humans.  Then there is STD's. There are some that men have no symptoms and the woman gets them.  STD's that are hidden for awhile and then show for themselves.  Answer is tell all!
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 25, 2020, 05:57:43 PM
In traditional cultures, it was assumed safely that the girl was a virgin. A man wouldn't need to feel insecure about it.

If you are a man who really cares about it, then don't marry an american woman. Go to asia and marry a young woman, by first meeting her family and sizing her up that way.

If you can handle that your wife has possibly been with someone else, then just put it out of your mind.

Neither men nor women have a right to know about such things.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 25, 2020, 06:12:45 PM
If you are so inclined to hire someone to spy on her then she should not marry YOU. I would never trust a man who had such little trust in me. Better not to marry at all. Or find another man.
"If he can't handle me at my worst, he doesn't deserve me at my best". Feminist BS.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Matthew on December 26, 2020, 12:32:48 AM

Quote
A woman who would insist that a man believe her word, in this day and age, that she hasn't...



Hey, if that's you Croix, just a reminder, I *can* see who posts in the anonymous subforum.

Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 26, 2020, 12:37:11 AM
I know 2 priest who said, tell all.  Also, the sin is forgiven by God,not forgotten by humans.  Then there is STD's. There are some that men have no symptoms and the woman gets them.  STD's that are hidden for awhile and then show for themselves.  Answer is tell all!
Name them. Also, give imprimaturs from traditional or pre-Conciliar bishops. Regarding STDs: there are tests.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 26, 2020, 12:44:09 AM
If you are so inclined to hire someone to spy on her then she should not marry YOU. I would never trust a man who had such little trust in me. Better not to marry at all. Or find another man.
Sounds like there's something in your past that you wouldn't want a suitor to know about. Hm.........
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: 2Vermont on December 26, 2020, 07:40:39 AM
OP here. I was mistaken about the authorship. It was not a Fr. Lord pamphlet but rather QUESTIONS YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN ASK BEFORE MARRIAGE by Donald F. Miller, C.Ss.R.

Imprimi Potest: John N. McCormick, C.Ss.R, Provincial, St. Louis Province, Redemptorist Fathers November 20, 1961
Imprimatur: + Joseph Cardinal Ritter, Archbishop of St. Louis, November 24, 1961

Here is the relevant text:
I can't help but notice that this priestly advice consistently includes warnings about men who demand or insist to know the past of their potential spouses.  I assume that this would also apply to women who would do the same (although they do not say this explicitly). It seems to me that if one were to willingly offer this information without provocation that would be a much different scenario.  


I think we also need to keep in mind that these are opinions, and I suspect that different priests might have different opinions on how to proceed.  Not all moral questions have black and white/cut and dried answers.  In fact, even these priests say there are exceptions and that they leave room for them.  The McHugh and Callan example above also seems to hint at a different answer depending upon whether the person would use the past information against the other.   
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Stanley N on December 26, 2020, 12:15:43 PM
Whether a woman can can form a strong emotional bond should be clear from her behavior over a few dates.

So from that perspective, I don't think inquiring about virginity is needed.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 26, 2020, 12:55:34 PM
Does a woman have a right to know that her fiance has same sex attraction but not acted on it?

Does a woman have a right to know that her fiance has had relationships with men in the past?  She could be exposed to AIDS or other disease by marrying him.  

Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Matthew on December 26, 2020, 04:05:43 PM
Does a woman have a right to know that her fiance has same sex attraction but not acted on it?

Does a woman have a right to know that her fiance has had relationships with men in the past?  She could be exposed to AIDS or other disease by marrying him.  

Yes on both counts. Dishonesty -- INCLUDING HIDING OF IMPORTANT, RELEVANT FACTS with a bearing on the future -- even if it doesn't invalidate the marriage contract, certainly sets the marriage up for FAILURE nevertheless. You can have a failed marriage -- one or both spouses living alone, separated, no longer intimate, hating each other, etc. -- even if a marriage is "valid" which just means the contract was validly created (and thus can't be dissolved except by the death of one of the spouses).

The 2 priests quoted are only talking about the Letter of the Law. They aren't talking about what is PRUDENT, ADVISABLE, or what one SHOULD DO if they want a happy marriage.

Even pagans and non-Catholics understand the truth that A marriage must be built on trust.  Are Catholics to be worse than pagans? God forbid.

Don't think you can hide something like a Same Sex Attraction, loss of virginity, criminal record, pedophilia, etc. from your spouse without any consequences. Especially in this day and age of the Internet. What will your spouse do, say, and react when she finds out YOU LIED TO HER? Certain sins or events scar a person for life; they make a person "damaged goods". A spouse should be aware they are making a life-long contract with damaged goods. Anyone who denies this is IGNORANT, NAIVE, and/or A FOOL -- no exceptions.

Grace does not re-create or wipe out Nature. It builds on Nature. If Grace totally renovated and overwrote Nature, then there would be no effects of Original Sin seen among baptized persons in the world today!

If a spouse finds out that you hid something grave, a separation is NOT out of the question. In fact, I would advise it in all cases! If your spouse hid something serious like that from you -- something which affects your future family, marriage, marital relations, ability to provide for the family, etc. -- a wise spouse will not forgive them but insist on permanent separation of house and board (live separately, but not remarry).
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Geremia on December 26, 2020, 04:07:33 PM
How does a member of the Resistance get an annulment?
Probably with a "Resistance tribunal"…
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 26, 2020, 09:25:25 PM
We have been told by our priests that one use of porn can destroy a man's natural attraction for real women for life. 

This is just retarded. Here is an example of why the faithful shouldn't take every word of advice from priests as infallible. This is an example of priests who know not the real world and can't give good pragmatic advice.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Yeti on December 26, 2020, 10:33:16 PM
This is just retarded. Here is an example of why the faithful shouldn't take every word of advice from priests as infallible. This is an example of priests who know not the real world and can't give good pragmatic advice.
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I think it's more likely that the person who posted that misunderstood what she heard. Of course the statement, as quoted, is ludicrous.
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I'm not sure what we're still discussing here. We've already been given quotes from pre-Vatican 2 authors on the question posed, which explained the reasoning at great length and answered many objections, including the objections that people have made in this thread, as if they hadn't read the quote from Fr. Miller.
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I once heard Bp. Dolan say that it is a great modern error for spouses to confess their infidelities to each other, and causes great damage. For people with no religion, and no confession, it is maybe an understandable error, but for Catholics who have been given the sacrament of confession to receive the pardon of their sins, there is no excuse for that kind of stupidity.
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By all means, yes, get a medical test to determine if your fiance has a venereal disease, have a PI look into whether they have an illegitimate child somewhere, ... but ... asking someone about what they confess in confession??! Seriously?? I couldn't imagine myself ever asking anyone such a thing, under any circuмstances. Is nothing sacred with you people?
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Matthew on December 27, 2020, 08:49:02 AM
By all means, yes, get a medical test to determine if your fiance has a venereal disease, have a PI look into whether they have an illegitimate child somewhere, ... but ... asking someone about what they confess in confession??! Seriously?? I couldn't imagine myself ever asking anyone such a thing, under any circuмstances. Is nothing sacred with you people?
I would never advocate spouses "going to confession" to each other. That makes a mockery of what I'm talking about.
I'll repeat --

Dishonesty -- INCLUDING HIDING OF IMPORTANT, RELEVANT FACTS with a bearing on the future -- even if it doesn't invalidate the marriage contract, certainly sets the marriage up for FAILURE nevertheless. You can have a failed marriage -- one or both spouses living alone, separated, no longer intimate, hating each other, etc. -- even if a marriage is "valid" which just means the contract was validly created (and thus can't be dissolved except by the death of one of the spouses).

The 2 priests quoted are only talking about the Letter of the Law. They aren't talking about what is PRUDENT, ADVISABLE, or what one SHOULD DO if they want a happy marriage.

Even pagans and non-Catholics understand the truth that A marriage must be built on trust.  Are Catholics to be worse than pagans? God forbid.

Don't think you can hide something like a Same Sex Attraction, loss of virginity, criminal record, pedophilia, etc. from your spouse without any consequences. Especially in this day and age of the Internet. What will your spouse do, say, and react when she finds out YOU LIED TO HER? Certain sins or events scar a person for life; they make a person "damaged goods". A spouse should be aware they are making a life-long contract with damaged goods. Anyone who denies this is IGNORANT, NAIVE, and/or A FOOL -- no exceptions.

Grace -- and yes, that includes the Sacrament of Penance -- does not re-create or wipe out Nature. It builds on Nature. If Grace totally renovated and overwrote Nature, then there would be no effects of Original Sin seen among baptized persons in the world today! Go re-read your Catechism, specifically on the doctrine of Original Sin, and the effects left on our soul by Actual Sin even after going to Confession. Vices and virtues don't disappear instantly. Some behaviors leave a mark, a scar, an inclination.

If a spouse finds out that you hid something grave, a separation is NOT out of the question. In fact, I would advise it in all cases! If your spouse hid something serious like that from you -- something which affects your future family, marriage, marital relations, ability to provide for the family, etc. -- a wise spouse will not forgive them but insist on permanent separation of house and board (live separately, but not remarry).
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on December 27, 2020, 04:04:24 PM
This is just retarded. Here is an example of why the faithful shouldn't take every word of advice from priests as infallible. This is an example of priests who know not the real world and can't give good pragmatic advice.
These are the words of someone who has been looking at porn, and has deluded himself (with the assistance of the enemy) into the false belief is that it's harmless.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: gladius_veritatis on December 28, 2020, 08:31:16 AM
I am not sure the issue of "right" is accurate or matters.  

What I mean is this: IF I am in an increasingly-serious relationship, I can choose to ask or not ask about such things.  Likewise, IF asked about such matters, I am free to answer or not answer fully and truthfully.

Saying one has a "right" to something indicates an obligation on the part of another.  I don't think anyone is OBLIGATED to divulge information regardless of desire (or lack thereof) to know said information.

If someone wants to know very personal information about me, once asked it is my choice to share it.  Likewise, those with whom I share said information must decide how to process it and whether or not it affects our interaction moving forward.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: ByzCat3000 on December 28, 2020, 08:50:40 AM
This is just retarded. Here is an example of why the faithful shouldn't take every word of advice from priests as infallible. This is an example of priests who know not the real world and can't give good pragmatic advice.
well to be fair it looks like the priest said “can” not “absolutely will” which seems to have a lower burden of proof 
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on January 08, 2021, 08:55:49 PM
Oh, and if I were a young lady, I would definitely do my DUE DILIGENCE and look into the man's past. Look him up on social media, pose as a high school friend and see what you can find out, etc. I'd probably pay the $30 or $60 fee to do a background check. Or a few hundred dollars for a private investigator. Think that's excessive? You can't be too careful these days. We're talking about avoiding a life of misery, loneliness (divorced but can't remarry), poverty, strife, etc.  I think a few hundred dollars would be well spent to avoid that! Oh, and as a bonus (since you never married "the wrong guy"), you might also GET a nice Catholic man, loving family, beautiful Catholic household, many beautiful well-raised Catholic children, grandchildren, etc. as a bonus! A few hundred dollars sounds like a bargain now...
Very good advice. People may have one "face" to their relatives and co-workers but have freely photograph themselves living a wild private life. A five or ten minute social media search could save years of misery.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on January 08, 2021, 09:00:24 PM
"If he can't handle me at my worst, he doesn't deserve me at my best". Feminist BS.
Marilyn Monore said that. She had three weddings, caused Joe DiMaggio to abandon his Faith, reportedly had 10-12 abortions and apparently was miserable for most of her adult life.
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on January 09, 2021, 04:43:03 AM
Certainly!  Every sordid (if that’s the correct word) detail need not be revealed if a person lived a sinful life and has sincerely repented and amended.  But a potential mate has a right to know if there are physical or health issues, if there are legal or financial issues, and most importantly, if the marriage he is entering is valid!   A relative of mine could have been preserved from a world of hurt had she done some rather simple investigation.  She has a completely valid annulment which traditional priests mostly don’t accept because they do not have the time, training, or authority to look into it.  She lost her home and as a result, custody of four of five children.  At the time of her wedding, another woman was pregnant with her “husband’s” second child.  She is currently stranded in England due to their lockdown measures.  She went there last March for a job interview, got hired, then let go in July when the company closed down.  Her ex is on his third “wife.”
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on January 09, 2021, 04:48:53 AM
Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?

"Tell them nothing, let them guess!" - Eugene Welcel
Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on January 09, 2021, 06:38:53 AM
These are the words of someone who has been looking at porn, and has deluded himself (with the assistance of the enemy) into the false belief is that it's harmless.

You're a retard. Nowhere did I say porn is harmless; and I don't view porn. In fact, I believe it should be outlawed and the producers and purveyors of it should be executed. Penalty should be retroactive, too, as it will eliminate a lot of the J problem in America. 

Title: Re: Does a potential spouse have a right to know sɛҳuąƖ history before marriage?
Post by: Änσnymσus on March 11, 2021, 12:35:20 AM
As far as the porn points go...I used to be a porn addict and chronic self abuser but have done neither in about 2 years all thanks to the Grace of God and the Intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary and The Rosary.  That being said after I stopped the nasty lifestyle and habit those lustful feelings and urges and viewing women as objects went away after only a couple weeks.  I also have no desire to do any of those things ever again, so yeah it's definitely not "for life" if one truly repents of that lifestyle.