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Author Topic: Disciplining wife  (Read 40652 times)

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Offline Jaynek

Re: Disciplining wife
« Reply #420 on: May 28, 2020, 01:05:28 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 28, 2020, 12:37:28 PM
Sorry If I jumping into the middle of this, but there are various sides to this debate and I was only commenting on what you wrote, in plain English.  Of course, I agree with you that corporeal punishment is a last resort and not a necessity/obligation, except in extreme, extreme circuмstances.  But we live in an extreme world, so...

I think you might not fully understand my posts if you do not understand the context in which I am writing. I am arguing with a person who is saying horrible things and claiming they are Church teachings.  From what I recall, you are far, far closer to my position than to his.
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Disciplining wife
« Reply #421 on: May 28, 2020, 01:22:08 PM »
Quote
I suppose we could see it (the necessity) as an implication of him saying that it is permitted.
Yes, it's definitely implied. 
All necessary things are allowable, but not all allowable things are necessary.  Yet, some allowable things are necessary, in certain cases, else the allowance wouldn't exist.
.
I get the general gist of your argument, but i'm debating some of your generalizations, which aren't correct.  But I do understand what you're getting at, with your generalizations.  Obviously, those you are debating are interpreting general moral theology in a different way than you and I (and others).  This is why moral theology is difficult to debate - everyone agrees on the principles, but have different conclusions. 
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Offline Jaynek

Re: Disciplining wife
« Reply #422 on: May 29, 2020, 06:17:08 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 28, 2020, 01:22:08 PM
 Obviously, those you are debating are interpreting general moral theology in a different way than you and I (and others).  This is why moral theology is difficult to debate - everyone agrees on the principles, but have different conclusions.

You do not seem to have read the thread so you are not in a position to judge what is going on in it.  As far as I can tell, I have been arguing with a person who is not doing moral theology at all.  He wants husbands to hit wives and he picks out phrases from Catholic teaching to justify this while ignoring or twisting everything that puts any sort of restriction on it. Cherry-picked rationalizations are not moral theology.

He is not arguing from Catholic principles.  He is not talking about the physical correction taught in Catholic sources.  He is, in his own words, exhorting men to beat their wives and telling men to not worry about being excessive. (That's just life and only a venial sin, according to him.)  He explicitly recommends beating a woman until she bleeds.  This is not a mere difference of opinion on applying principles.  He is promoting errors that, if followed, would harm the bodies of women and the souls of men.  Even if not followed, his words bring disrepute to the Church and hand her enemies a weapon for attacking us.

 
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Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Disciplining wife
« Reply #423 on: May 29, 2020, 05:37:23 PM »
Quote from: Jaynek on May 28, 2020, 12:02:21 PM
While such a scenario is perhaps possible, it has nothing to do with the various passages from Catholic teaching referred to in this thread.  They were all about using physical discipline as a means of correction.  As such, they fall within the authority of the husband because he has a duty to correct his wife. This correction is ordered toward the end of repentance.  

What you are talking about in this scenario is a woman who has committed a crime against the state.  The husband does not have authority of his own to impose punishment, but the state, which has the authority to protect the common good, can transfer its authority to the husband.  He could, if the state permitted it, punish her on behalf of the state.  It is not part of his duties as a husband, nor is it a decision he can make on his own.

The possibility of such a scenario in no way shows that a husband can or should impose punishment on the wife for the sake of justice.  He is limited to corrective punishment only.  And that is limited to the least severe means that leads her to repentance.

Jayne,
This is not Catholic thinking.
All crime is ultimately against God. Then our neighbor and ourselves.
God has given instruments to rectify this. Subsidiarity says that the if something can be do on the lowest level, then it should. So it is with justice. I explained my post how this would happen.
Part of justice is to correct. Punishment is not an end in itself. This is a protestant mindset.
As for St. Thomas, you can't seem to decide whether he said it was necessary or not. First you say no, then you say yes, then when cornered on it, you go back to no.
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Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Disciplining wife
« Reply #424 on: May 29, 2020, 05:40:19 PM »
Quote from: Jaynek on May 28, 2020, 01:05:28 PM
I think you might not fully understand my posts if you do not understand the context in which I am writing. I am arguing with a person who is saying horrible things and claiming they are Church teachings.  From what I recall, you are far, far closer to my position than to his.
In other words, you are guilty of ad hominems, rather than sticking to the argument.
You, aware that you are being read, are trying to discredit the person, and distract from the righteousness of discplining a wife. The thread will lead men to implement it, I hope it does. You are trying to stop this. Lets be honest.
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