Author Topic: Disciplining wife  (Read 6268 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Disciplining wife
« Reply #345 on: May 22, 2020, 02:28:55 PM »
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  • Karens need to be put in their proper place.

    Go ahead, Mr. Anonymous.  Make my day.  

    Anonymous

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #346 on: May 22, 2020, 04:44:20 PM »
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  • The corporal punishment that is being proposed in this thread bears no resemblance to the practice that is allowed for in Catholic teaching.  It cannot legitimately be called discipline.  It is abuse and it is sin.
    Here's the full St. Alphonsus quote:
    Quote
    3. HOW DO HUSBANDS SIN IN REGARD TO THEIR WIVES?

    With regard to married persons, the husband commits sin

    1. If through his fault he leaves his wife in want of food or clothes.

    2. If he maltreats her by beating her, slapping her face, or calling her insulting names. The wife is a companion, not a slave. Before marriage, some husbands make great promises: “You shall be the mistress of the house, mistress of me.” And after the lapse of a few months, they treat their wives as slaves. “What! can I not chastise my wife when she is guilty of misconduct?” Yes; if there is a just cause (particularly if your wife fails in chastity), and if, after being corrected several times, she does not amend, you can chastise her, but with moderation. But it is not lawful to beat your wife for trifling defects, such as for saying a word in anger, or for disobedience in a matter of little importance.

    3. A husband is guilty of sin if he hinder his wife from fulfilling her obligations as a Christian, hearing Mass, making her Easter Communion, and going to confession several times in the year; for a person in the world can scarcely preserve himself in the grace of God by going to confession only once in the year. “But, Father, she wants to go to confession and Communion every day.” I answer, if, by frequenting the sacraments, she neglects the care of the family, you can then forbid her to go so often to confession and Communion; but it is not lawful for you to interfere, unless she fails in the good government of the house, or unless some other inconvenience arises from her frequenting the sacraments.
    (I thought the full quote was quoted here before.)


    Anonymous

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #347 on: May 22, 2020, 06:38:24 PM »
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  • In this thread we have seen men encouraged to beat a wife until she bleeds and told that it doesn't really matter if he ends up being excessive.    These posters go far beyond anything that could possibly be justified by what the Saints were saying.  The proponents on this thread are encouraging abuse, even by what you admit above.


    Someone who does not have what it takes to put his name to his posts is in no position to tell others how to be a man and not a pansy.  Do you expect us to believe that "real trad men" hide behind anonymity?  You have no credibility on the subject of manhood or courage.  Or anything really.  Everyone has seen how you distort and misrepresent Church teaching to justify sin.
     
    I never said it didn't really matter.
    It is simply venial. Not mortal.
    You want to make it seem venial to stop men from doing their duty.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #348 on: May 22, 2020, 06:40:32 PM »
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  • Go ahead, Mr. Anonymous.  Make my day.  
    That wasn't me. But I don't think he was advocating abuse. Just that you shouldn't really be posting here on this forum. You are stubborn.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #349 on: May 22, 2020, 06:44:52 PM »
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  • Anyway, just to clarify for the idiots who think I don't know moral theology.





    If a husband is excessive in his discipline, it is called cruelty. Cruelty may or may not be mortal. A person can be cruel to anyone, wife or not. Various factors go into deciding whether it is mortal or not.






    There is no particular reason why it should always be a mortal sin for a wife, and not for other people or animals.






    It is the ego of western women who think they are little princesses that they should never undergo suffering of any kind. That any offense against them is grave.





    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #350 on: May 22, 2020, 08:38:30 PM »
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  • You want to make it seem venial to stop men from doing their duty.

    There is no duty of husbands to use corporal punishment.  None of the Catholic sources said there was a duty.  There was limited permission.  It is allowed under certain circumstances.  Permission is not obligation.  

    Some examples to illustrate this:
    We are allowed to go to Mass every day, but we are not obliged to go to Mass every day.
    We are allowed to eat meat (unless it is a day of abstinence), but we are not obliged to eat meat.
    The residents of my city are allowed to get a library card, but they are not obliged to get a library card.

    How many examples do you need to see before you can grasp this concept?  The existence of permission to use corporal punishment in no way means or implies that it is an obligation.  There is no duty to do it.  

    You keep going on and on about this supposed duty, but it does not exist.  Your false statements about a duty to hit women will not become true no matter how many times you repeat them.

    I object to these statements because they are false, not because I am unwilling to endure suffering.  I am in my 60s.  Do you think that I got to this age with no sufferings?  If nothing else, I have been through childbirth 7 times.

    Someone has said that I am being stubborn.  If you stop stubbornly making your false claims, I will stop stubbornly pointing out that they are false.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #351 on: May 23, 2020, 01:04:24 AM »
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  • In the Our Father, we literally ask God to Judge us by the way we treat others. So to all of you Wife beaters on this thread, know that every time you give your wife a smack, the Lord is watching. And let me tell you what, He’s got one Hell of a Divine spanking prepared for you on the day of your particular Judgement.
    Perfect!
    FYI, there are worse things you can do to your wife than hit her, as bad as hitting is.  Psychological abuse is much more detrimental to her overall well-being.   Abuse of any kind, to anyone, is wrong, but it is especially wrong to do it to your wife.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #352 on: May 23, 2020, 01:08:32 AM »
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  • Do you want this wife:



    Or this one:


    Offline RiseOfSkywalkerIsSubpar

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #353 on: May 23, 2020, 04:08:22 AM »
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  • Accusing me of the very thing which you are guilty of (poorly worded arguments), will only backfire in the eyes of honest people.
    A husband is the ultimate authority in a marriage. Good Catholics know this. He is a sinner of course, like all men. But nonetheless the authority. If you have a problem with that, take it up with almighty God.
    I won't deny that my original argument could've used some clarification (which I provided afterward), but my accusation of your poorly-worded argument still stands. If you need reasoning for why it still stands, I suggest you refer back to my original response to your poorly-worded argument and the clarification of my original response (and actually pay attention, since you have a track record of not paying attention to what even you yourself have said).
    I don't have a problem with a husband's authority (although it's funny you say the husband is the ultimate authority in marriage because last I checked, God is the ultimate authority in all things). I have a problem with the husbands here (or even unmarried people) who insist that spousal abuse is good and necessary.
    And if you think spousal abuse is good and necessary, then I suggest you take that up with almighty God.
    Uhhh, just pretend this is a clever valediction XD

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #354 on: May 23, 2020, 04:20:06 AM »
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  • If a husband is excessive in his discipline, it is called cruelty. Cruelty may or may not be mortal. A person can be cruel to anyone, wife or not. Various factors go into deciding whether it is mortal or not.


    There is no particular reason why it should always be a mortal sin for a wife, and not for other people or animals.
    Cruelty towards a wife is an especially bad form of cruelty for many reasons.

    It is an abuse of the husband's authority. It is a violation of his duty to love her.  It is a contradiction of his duty to protect her. It is a failure in his duty to honour her. In most cases, he is significantly stronger than she, so it is bullying. Because he is her spiritual head, his cruelty also harms her spiritually possibly to the point of endangering her soul.  Cruelty to a wife is never merely cruelty but brings with it a host of other serious sins.  This is why it is virtually always grave matter and likely to be a mortal sin.

    But the anonymous proponent's (henceforth AP) attempt to undermine the teaching that corporal punishment of a wife is only permitted on the condition that it is moderate is part of a pattern.  At every point he distorts, contradicts, or undermines the Church teaching. 

    St. Alphonus Ligouri (SAL):  It is a sin to maltreat a wife by "beating her, slapping her face, or calling her insulting names."
    AP: It is only a venial sin. Don't worry about it. If a wife suffers, that's just life.

    SAL: A wife can be chastised by her husband (i.e. permission)
    AP: A husband has a duty to use corporal punishment on his wife (i.e. obligation)

    SAL: if there is just cause, particularly adultery and 
    AP: whenever in his opinion she commits a serious sin

    SAL: if she is verbally correctly several times but it does not work and
    AP: let's pretend this part isn't there

    SAL: if done in moderation.
    AP:  he should beat her until she bleeds

    SAL: It is not lawful to use corporal punishment for trifling defects
    AP: There is no objective basis for determining what is trifling and serious; it is up to the opinion of the husband.  In effect, he may beat her whenever he wants.

    AP: Don't worry about meeting SAL's conditions properly. It is only a venial sin if you make a mistake.  The important thing is that you must beat her.  Make sure you do it, no matter what. Even if it is illegal. Even if it will destroy your life and lead to your children being raised by a single mother. 

    Any intellectually honest person can see that AP's position is significantly different from the Catholic teaching of St. Alphonsus. The only support for AP comes from men who like the idea of beating women so much that will accept any excuse to justify it.  We can only speculate about what causes them to be like this.  For that matter, we can only speculate how many of them there actually are, since none of them dares to use his name. I would like to think that there are only one or two of them taking this intellectually and morally deranged position.

    While I do not expect AP to acknowledge that his ideas are not Catholic teaching, it is not a good use of my time to respond to every post.  I am going to switch to occasional summaries of his false and misleading statements.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #355 on: May 23, 2020, 09:28:38 AM »
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  • Cruelty towards a wife is an especially bad form of cruelty for many reasons.

    It is an abuse of the husband's authority. It is a violation of his duty to love her.  It is a contradiction of his duty to protect her. It is a failure in his duty to honour her. In most cases, he is significantly stronger than she, so it is bullying. Because he is her spiritual head, his cruelty also harms her spiritually possibly to the point of endangering her soul.  Cruelty to a wife is never merely cruelty but brings with it a host of other serious sins.  This is why it is virtually always grave matter and likely to be a mortal sin.

    But the anonymous proponent's (henceforth AP) attempt to undermine the teaching that corporal punishment of a wife is only permitted on the condition that it is moderate is part of a pattern.  At every point he distorts, contradicts, or undermines the Church teaching.

    St. Alphonus Ligouri (SAL):  It is a sin to maltreat a wife by "beating her, slapping her face, or calling her insulting names."
    AP: It is only a venial sin. Don't worry about it. If a wife suffers, that's just life.

    SAL: A wife can be chastised by her husband (i.e. permission)
    AP: A husband has a duty to use corporal punishment on his wife (i.e. obligation)

    SAL: if there is just cause, particularly adultery and
    AP: whenever in his opinion she commits a serious sin

    SAL: if she is verbally correctly several times but it does not work and
    AP: let's pretend this part isn't there

    SAL: if done in moderation.
    AP:  he should beat her until she bleeds

    SAL: It is not lawful to use corporal punishment for trifling defects
    AP: There is no objective basis for determining what is trifling and serious; it is up to the opinion of the husband.  In effect, he may beat her whenever he wants.

    AP: Don't worry about meeting SAL's conditions properly. It is only a venial sin if you make a mistake.  The important thing is that you must beat her.  Make sure you do it, no matter what. Even if it is illegal. Even if it will destroy your life and lead to your children being raised by a single mother.

    Any intellectually honest person can see that AP's position is significantly different from the Catholic teaching of St. Alphonsus. The only support for AP comes from men who like the idea of beating women so much that will accept any excuse to justify it.  We can only speculate about what causes them to be like this.  For that matter, we can only speculate how many of them there actually are, since none of them dares to use his name. I would like to think that there are only one or two of them taking this intellectually and morally deranged position.

    While I do not expect AP to acknowledge that his ideas are not Catholic teaching, it is not a good use of my time to respond to every post.  I am going to switch to occasional summaries of his false and misleading statements.

    There is no reasoning with a mentally  sick person.


    Anonymous

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #356 on: May 23, 2020, 09:31:12 AM »
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  • There is no reasoning with a mentally  sick person.

    They are moslem in teaching, not Catholic.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #357 on: May 23, 2020, 10:16:02 AM »
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  • There is no reasoning with a mentally  sick person.
    I do not expect to convince the wife-abuse-under-pretence-of-corporal-punishment proponent. But I want to make it clear just how different his views are from actual Catholic teaching, so nobody else will be confused.  I do not want to see anyone deceived into thinking the Church teaches such sickening nonsense.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #358 on: May 23, 2020, 03:03:48 PM »
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  • Cruelty towards a wife is an especially bad form of cruelty for many reasons.

    It is an abuse of the husband's authority. It is a violation of his duty to love her.  It is a contradiction of his duty to protect her. It is a failure in his duty to honour her. In most cases, he is significantly stronger than she, so it is bullying. Because he is her spiritual head, his cruelty also harms her spiritually possibly to the point of endangering her soul.  Cruelty to a wife is never merely cruelty but brings with it a host of other serious sins.  This is why it is virtually always grave matter and likely to be a mortal sin.

    But the anonymous proponent's (henceforth AP) attempt to undermine the teaching that corporal punishment of a wife is only permitted on the condition that it is moderate is part of a pattern.  At every point he distorts, contradicts, or undermines the Church teaching.

    St. Alphonus Ligouri (SAL):  It is a sin to maltreat a wife by "beating her, slapping her face, or calling her insulting names."
    AP: It is only a venial sin. Don't worry about it. If a wife suffers, that's just life.

    SAL: A wife can be chastised by her husband (i.e. permission)
    AP: A husband has a duty to use corporal punishment on his wife (i.e. obligation)

    SAL: if there is just cause, particularly adultery and
    AP: whenever in his opinion she commits a serious sin

    SAL: if she is verbally correctly several times but it does not work and
    AP: let's pretend this part isn't there

    SAL: if done in moderation.
    AP:  he should beat her until she bleeds

    SAL: It is not lawful to use corporal punishment for trifling defects
    AP: There is no objective basis for determining what is trifling and serious; it is up to the opinion of the husband.  In effect, he may beat her whenever he wants.

    AP: Don't worry about meeting SAL's conditions properly. It is only a venial sin if you make a mistake.  The important thing is that you must beat her.  Make sure you do it, no matter what. Even if it is illegal. Even if it will destroy your life and lead to your children being raised by a single mother.

    Any intellectually honest person can see that AP's position is significantly different from the Catholic teaching of St. Alphonsus. The only support for AP comes from men who like the idea of beating women so much that will accept any excuse to justify it.  We can only speculate about what causes them to be like this.  For that matter, we can only speculate how many of them there actually are, since none of them dares to use his name. I would like to think that there are only one or two of them taking this intellectually and morally deranged position.

    While I do not expect AP to acknowledge that his ideas are not Catholic teaching, it is not a good use of my time to respond to every post.  I am going to switch to occasional summaries of his false and misleading statements.
    Jayne you are making up those cruelty comments! You have no basis  in theology for them. They are purely your opinion. A reminder that your husband should not be even letting you post here. But nonetheless, lets carry on....
    Simply because you have organized the comments well does not mean that you are right. All my points stand. People can read the quotes themselves. They can ask their priests who can get the moral theology books which say it is for any mortal sin.
    This is a duty of a husband. Your husband does not do it to you. I feel resentment in your whole tone. Which is why you lash out and accuse me of engaging in sexual fantasies? Catholic moral teaching = sexual fantasies!??
    The husband is the head. He is made man and men are made to judge. He judges when she sins mortally. If a woman doesn't like that, don't get married! Corporal discipline is only part of his duties, yet you imply that I think it should be used all the time. Now who is dishonest!
    The quotes you give are for when it is done in cruelty, not when it is legit punishment. Round and round in circles we go...

    Anonymous

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #359 on: May 23, 2020, 03:07:23 PM »
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  • There is no duty of husbands to use corporal punishment.  None of the Catholic sources said there was a duty.  There was limited permission.  It is allowed under certain circumstances.  Permission is not obligation.  

    Some examples to illustrate this:
    We are allowed to go to Mass every day, but we are not obliged to go to Mass every day.
    We are allowed to eat meat (unless it is a day of abstinence), but we are not obliged to eat meat.
    The residents of my city are allowed to get a library card, but they are not obliged to get a library card.
    False. A husband has duty of discipline over his whole family. Which includes his wife. We are not obliged to go to Mass every day because their are other obligations which are more important that sanctify our souls. However a husband fails in his duty to not correct his wife when she sins mortally. Sometimes that requires corporal punishment.


     

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