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Author Topic: Disciplining wife  (Read 39391 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Disciplining wife
« Reply #165 on: May 11, 2020, 04:26:28 PM »
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  • There's been some speculation on here if you're even married to a woman.
    But I've been meaning to ask, has it been determined if you're even  male or female?
    Or have you decided yet? ::)
    This is alaric asking this question.
    Damn, I hate this fαɢɢօty "anonymous" forum.

    Offline alaric

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #166 on: May 11, 2020, 04:28:24 PM »
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  • This is alaric asking this question.
    Damn, I hate this fαɢɢօty "anonymous" forum.
    I forgot to put "not annymous" in my reply.
    Damn Matthew, you gotta do away with this anonymous crap.



    Offline alaric

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #167 on: May 11, 2020, 04:31:11 PM »
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  • We can't even modify our responses in this "anonymous" forum, what a joke.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #168 on: May 11, 2020, 06:01:33 PM »
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  • In “De quarto praecepto decalogi,” he says that ordinarily, a husband sins mortally against the fourth commandment by saying insulting things or seriously striking his wife in any way (but not if done playfully or lightly as part of a joke, as is obvious). In proportion to a grave cause, he may sometimes rebuke her with harsh words. But recourse to corporal punishment is almost always forbidden to him, or more properly, requires a higher bar than corporally chastising a child or servant, since a wife is neither one of those, but his “companion.” The rare exception is in the case of a direly grave cause, in which case it is sometimes licit to rebuke her with “moderate blows.” But even this must be in proportion to her status: it is almost never acceptable if she is a woman of noble birth. (This is similar to where he says a noble/aristocratic wife is under no obligation to obey a husband who demands that she clean or cook, and that if she does fulfill these wishes, she can compensate herself by secretly taking/spending his money).

    In “De divortio,” he explains what the direly grave cause which makes moderate corporal punishment licit is: adultery. This is in accordance with St. Thomas and most other theologians. That is, rather than have to divorce an adulterous wife, a man can chastise her with words or even moderate blows if that will adequately correct her.



    So in “De quarto praecepto decalogi,” he says that ordinarily, a husband sins mortally against the fourth commandment by saying insulting things or seriously striking his wife in any way (but not if done playfully or lightly as part of a joke, as is obvious). In proportion to a grave cause, he may sometimes rebuke her with harsh words. But recourse to corporal punishment is almost always forbidden to him, or more properly, requires a higher bar than corporally chastising a child or servant, since a wife is neither one of those, but his “companion.” The rare exception is in the case of a direly grave cause, in which case it is sometimes licit to rebuke her with “moderate blows.” But even this must be in proportion to her status: it is almost never acceptable if she is a woman of noble birth. (This is similar to where he says a noble/aristocratic wife is under no obligation to obey a husband who demands that she clean or cook, and that if she does fulfill these wishes, she can compensate herself by secretly taking/spending his money).

    In “De divortio,” he explains what the direly grave cause which makes moderate corporal punishment licit is: adultery. This is in accordance with St. Thomas and most other theologians. That is, rather than have to divorce an adulterous wife, a man can chastise her with words or even moderate blows if that will adequately correct her.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #169 on: May 11, 2020, 06:21:18 PM »
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  •  I am blessed to have married a woman so holy that I cannot remember a time when I would have had to do anything close to striking her, yet alone raising my voice. The trick is to marry the right person. If you marry a holy-God fearing woman, I don't see why this would be a problem.


    Offline pnw1994

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #170 on: May 11, 2020, 06:22:15 PM »
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  •  I am blessed to have married a woman so holy that I cannot remember a time when I would have had to do anything close to striking her, yet alone raising my voice. The trick is to marry the right person. If you marry a holy-God fearing woman, I don't see why this would be a problem.
    God cannot leave a soul to swim
    That has not first abandoned Him.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #171 on: May 11, 2020, 06:23:14 PM »
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  • I am blessed to have married a woman so holy that I cannot remember a time when I would have had to do anything close to striking her, yet alone raising my voice. The trick is to marry the right person. If you marry a holy-God fearing woman, I don't see why this would be a problem.
    Not many holy God-fearing women around to marry
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #172 on: May 12, 2020, 04:35:08 AM »
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  • Such brave words from a person who does not even dare put his name to his post.  

    If it is false prudence to reject the use of physical punishment in our situation, it must also be false prudence to post anonymously.  It is based on the same reasons.

    Those who treat corporal punishment as an obligation rather than a rare option for extreme cases are the ones ignoring Catholic teaching.

    (By the way, Mithrandylan is a man, a husband and a father.  You cannot dismiss his comments as coming from a women who is unwilling to be punished.)  
    Jayne,
    I don't know if you are being obstinate or are mentally retarded in some way, but I will explain.
    It is not about the fact that the police in theory can access logs and get a warrant.
    It is about nasty trads, (like you), who have no scruples in reporting a person to the local law enforcement once they know them. Or simply just making life difficult for them in their local chapel.
    This is why anonymity for husbands who discipline their wives is necessary on this forum.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #173 on: May 12, 2020, 04:39:02 AM »
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  • Corporal punishment is not some kind of evil we should try to avoid.

    It is meritorious.

    A husband who exercises is being merciful.

    Yes we are not obligated to be merciful, but there is a n obligation in the sense that if  people are not punished corporeally there can be long term consequences (give an inch take a mile- husbands, you know what I am talking about)

    The best is to explain to a wife (before marriage ideally) in what circuмstances she will be discplined, and in what manner.

    That way she make sure to avoid those sins which merit it.

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #174 on: May 12, 2020, 04:48:14 AM »
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  • In “De quarto praecepto decalogi,” he says that ordinarily, a husband sins mortally against the fourth commandment by saying insulting things or seriously striking his wife in any way (but not if done playfully or lightly as part of a joke, as is obvious). In proportion to a grave cause, he may sometimes rebuke her with harsh words. But recourse to corporal punishment is almost always forbidden to him, or more properly, requires a higher bar than corporally chastising a child or servant, since a wife is neither one of those, but his “companion.” The rare exception is in the case of a direly grave cause, in which case it is sometimes licit to rebuke her with “moderate blows.” But even this must be in proportion to her status: it is almost never acceptable if she is a woman of noble birth. (This is similar to where he says a noble/aristocratic wife is under no obligation to obey a husband who demands that she clean or cook, and that if she does fulfill these wishes, she can compensate herself by secretly taking/spending his money).

    In “De divortio,” he explains what the direly grave cause which makes moderate corporal punishment licit is: adultery. This is in accordance with St. Thomas and most other theologians. That is, rather than have to divorce an adulterous wife, a man can chastise her with words or even moderate blows if that will adequately correct her.



    So in “De quarto praecepto decalogi,” he says that ordinarily, a husband sins mortally against the fourth commandment by saying insulting things or seriously striking his wife in any way (but not if done playfully or lightly as part of a joke, as is obvious). In proportion to a grave cause, he may sometimes rebuke her with harsh words. But recourse to corporal punishment is almost always forbidden to him, or more properly, requires a higher bar than corporally chastising a child or servant, since a wife is neither one of those, but his “companion.” The rare exception is in the case of a direly grave cause, in which case it is sometimes licit to rebuke her with “moderate blows.” But even this must be in proportion to her status: it is almost never acceptable if she is a woman of noble birth. (This is similar to where he says a noble/aristocratic wife is under no obligation to obey a husband who demands that she clean or cook, and that if she does fulfill these wishes, she can compensate herself by secretly taking/spending his money).

    In “De divortio,” he explains what the direly grave cause which makes moderate corporal punishment licit is: adultery. This is in accordance with St. Thomas and most other theologians. That is, rather than have to divorce an adulterous wife, a man can chastise her with words or even moderate blows if that will adequately correct her.
    Finally, we're moving the discussion forward a bit here.
    First, can you provide the exact references please?
    I presume you took the time to read St. Alphonsus also.
    In any case, the moral theology books do not specify adultery. Any serious sin is necessary. Limiting it to adultery seems rather arbitrary. May women give grave scandal by persistently contradicting their husbands in front of the children and even in front of other families. Dominating the marriage (usurping his authority - a mortal sin) is a frequent one too.
    As traditional Catholic who need to be counter cultural, we need to push against this all the more. Husbands who want their families to be like this, have a right to mould them in this way.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #175 on: May 12, 2020, 05:31:05 AM »
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  • In “De quarto praecepto decalogi,” he says that ordinarily, a husband sins mortally against the fourth commandment by saying insulting things or seriously striking his wife in any way (but not if done playfully or lightly as part of a joke, as is obvious). In proportion to a grave cause, he may sometimes rebuke her with harsh words. But recourse to corporal punishment is almost always forbidden to him, or more properly, requires a higher bar than corporally chastising a child or servant, since a wife is neither one of those, but his “companion.” The rare exception is in the case of a direly grave cause, in which case it is sometimes licit to rebuke her with “moderate blows.” But even this must be in proportion to her status: it is almost never acceptable if she is a woman of noble birth. (This is similar to where he says a noble/aristocratic wife is under no obligation to obey a husband who demands that she clean or cook, and that if she does fulfill these wishes, she can compensate herself by secretly taking/spending his money).

    In “De divortio,” he explains what the direly grave cause which makes moderate corporal punishment licit is: adultery. This is in accordance with St. Thomas and most other theologians. That is, rather than have to divorce an adulterous wife, a man can chastise her with words or even moderate blows if that will adequately correct her.



    So in “De quarto praecepto decalogi,” he says that ordinarily, a husband sins mortally against the fourth commandment by saying insulting things or seriously striking his wife in any way (but not if done playfully or lightly as part of a joke, as is obvious). In proportion to a grave cause, he may sometimes rebuke her with harsh words. But recourse to corporal punishment is almost always forbidden to him, or more properly, requires a higher bar than corporally chastising a child or servant, since a wife is neither one of those, but his “companion.” The rare exception is in the case of a direly grave cause, in which case it is sometimes licit to rebuke her with “moderate blows.” But even this must be in proportion to her status: it is almost never acceptable if she is a woman of noble birth. (This is similar to where he says a noble/aristocratic wife is under no obligation to obey a husband who demands that she clean or cook, and that if she does fulfill these wishes, she can compensate herself by secretly taking/spending his money).

    In “De divortio,” he explains what the direly grave cause which makes moderate corporal punishment licit is: adultery. This is in accordance with St. Thomas and most other theologians. That is, rather than have to divorce an adulterous wife, a man can chastise her with words or even moderate blows if that will adequately correct her.
    .
    Whose position(s) are you describing? You just say 'he' and I'm not sure who 'he' is.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #176 on: May 12, 2020, 06:35:48 AM »
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  • I think it's St. Thomas.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #177 on: May 12, 2020, 09:11:16 AM »
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  • Finally, we're moving the discussion forward a bit here.
    First, can you provide the exact references please?
    I presume you took the time to read St. Alphonsus also.
    Do you see a difference between this and St. Aphonsus?  https://books.google.ie/books?id=PQVHDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT6201&lpg=PT6201&dq=alphonsus+liguori+wife-beating&source=bl&ots=IDrMZJEmaR&sig=ACfU3U2s4jS1G3SqeGH_ase6g7sxL-Y5gA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDh-6I8Z3pAhVdSxUIHfcED4gQ6AEwAXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=alphonsus%20liguori%20wife-beating&f=false

    I thought they were quite similar.

    "The husband commits sin ... if he maltreats her by beating her, slapping her face, or calling her insulting names. The wife is a companion not a slave.  Before marriage some husbands make great promises:  "You shall be the mistress of the house, the mistress of me." And after the lapse of a few months, they treat their wives as slaves.  "What can I not chastise my wife when she is guilty of misconduct?" If there is a just cause (particularly if your wife fails in chastity) and if after being corrected several times, she does not amend, you can chastise her but with moderation.  But it is not lawful to beat your wife for trifling defects such as for saying a word in anger, or for disobedience in a matter of little importance."


    In any case, the moral theology books do not specify adultery. Any serious sin is necessary. Limiting it to adultery seems rather arbitrary. May women give grave scandal by persistently contradicting their husbands in front of the children and even in front of other families. Dominating the marriage (usurping his authority - a mortal sin) is a frequent one too.
    Arguing with one's husband, contradicting him in front of others, and disrespecting him are very bad things.  I encourage any wife who does such things to understand how wrong they are, to go Confession and to do her best to change these behaviours.

    But there is little grounds to see them as having the same degree of gravity as adultery.  The sin of adultery is sufficiently serious that the husband may separate from his wife.  St. Thomas teaches that a man in such a situation could chastise her with blows as an alternative to separation.  


    As traditional Catholic who need to be counter cultural, we need to push against this all the more. Husbands who want their families to be like this, have a right to mould them in this way.

    Even if this right exists in the abstract, it is extremely imprudent to attempt to exercise it when it is illegal and one risks destroying one's family.  Mithrandylan explained this very well.  In case you are unfamiliar with him,  he is a long-time poster here who has repeatedly demonstrated his understanding of Church teaching and his firm opposition to feminism.  In addition, he is a husband and father writing with the benefit of real life experience.  It would be difficult to have more credibility than he does on this topic.  

    (While reputation scores are not necessarily a good indicator, this time it is:  Posts 3362, Reputation +4255/-338)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #178 on: May 12, 2020, 09:22:05 AM »
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  • But there is little grounds to see them as having the same degree of gravity as adultery.  The sin of adultery is sufficiently serious that the husband may separate from his wife.  St. Thomas teaches that a man in such a situation could chastise her with blows as an alternative to separation.  

    Good post, Jaynek.  Even in this case, if a woman is not contrite or repentant about committing adultery, I question what good it would do.  Such a woman would not hesitate to leave or divorce the husband, or even to get the police involved.  If the only thing deterring her from committing the sin again is the prospect of physical punishment, then she'll just likely be more careful next time not to get caught.

    Even if it were permitted in strict justice to apply corporal punishment in this case, I have a difficult time envisioning a scenario where it would be prudent and/or effective.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Disciplining wife
    « Reply #179 on: May 12, 2020, 09:51:27 AM »
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  • Corporal punishment is not some kind of evil we should try to avoid.

    It is meritorious.
    You disagree with St. John Chrysostom.  He refers to it as madness, shame, dishonour.  He compares the man who does it to a wild beast and a murderer of parents:

    And to you husbands also this I say: make it a rule that there can be no such offense as to bring you under the necessity of striking a wife. And why say I a wife? Since not even upon his handmaiden could a free man endure to inflict blows and lay violent hands. But if the shame be great for a man to beat a maidservant, much more to stretch forth the right hand against her that is free. And this one might see even from heathen legislatures who no longer compel her that has been so treated to live with him that beat her, as being unworthy of her fellowship. For surely it comes of extreme lawlessness when your partner of life, she who in the most intimate relations and in the highest degree, is united with you; when she, like a base slave, is dishonored by you. Wherefore also such a man, if indeed one must call him a man and not rather a wild beast, I should say, was like a parricide and a murderer of his mother. For if for a wife's sake we were commanded to leave even father and mother, not wronging them but fulfilling a divine law; and a law so grateful to our parents themselves that even they, the very persons whom we are leaving, are thankful, and bring it about with great eagerness; what but extreme frenzy can it be to insult her for whose sake God bade us leave even our parents?

    But we may well ask, Is it only madness? There is the shame too: I would fain know who can endure it. And what description can set it before us; when shrieks and wailings are borne along the alleys, and there is a running to the house of him that is so disgracing himself, both of the neighbors and the passers by, as though some wild beast were ravaging within? Better were it that the earth should gape asunder for one so frantic, than that he should be seen at all in the forum after it.
    But the woman is insolent, says he. Consider nevertheless that she is a woman, the weaker vessel, whereas you are a man. For therefore were thou ordained to be ruler; and were assigned to her in place of a head, that you might bear with the weakness of her that is set under you. Make then your rule glorious. And glorious it will be when the subject of it meets with no dishonor from you. And as the monarch will appear so much the more dignified, as he manifests more dignity in the officer under him; but if he dishonor and depreciate the greatness of that rank, he is indirectly cutting off no small portion of his own glory likewise: so also thou dishonor her who governs next to yourself, will in no common degree mar the honor of your governance.

    Considering therefore all these things, command yourself: and withal think also of that evening on which the father having called you, delivered you his daughter as a kind of deposit, and having separated her from all, from her mother, from himself, from the family, entrusted her entire guardianship to your right hand. Consider that (under God) through her you have children and hast become a father, and be thou also on that account gentle towards her.

    Do you see not the husbandmen, how the earth which has once received the seed, they tend with all various methods of culture, though it have ten thousand disadvantages; e.g., though it be an unkindly soil or bear ill weeds, or though it be vexed with excessive rain through the nature of its situation? This also do thou. For thus shall you be first to enjoy both the fruit and the calm. Since your wife is to you both a harbor, and a potent healing charm to rejoice your heart. Well then: if you shall free your harbor from winds and waves, you shall enjoy much tranquility on your return from the market-place: but if you fill it with clamor and tumult, thou dost but prepare for yourself a more grievous shipwreck.  In order then to prevent this, let what I advise be done: When anything uncomfortable happens in the household, if she be in the wrong console her and do not aggravate the discomfort. For even if you should lose all, nothing is more grievous than to have a wife without good-will sharing your abode. And whatever offense you can mention, you will tell me of nothing so very painful as being at strife with her. So that if it were only for such reasons as these, let her love be more precious than all things. For if one another's burdens are to be borne, much more our own wife's.

    Though she be poor do not upbraid her: though she be foolish, do not trample on her, but train her rather: because she is a member of you, and you have become one flesh.  But she is trifling and drunken and passionate. You ought then to grieve over these things, not to be angry; and to beseech God, and exhort her and give her advice, and do every thing to remove the evil. But if you strike her thou dost aggravate the disease: for fierceness is removed by moderation, not by rival fierceness. With these things bear in mind also the reward from God: that when it is permitted you to cut her off, and you do not so for the fear of God, but bearest with so great defects, fearing the law appointed in such matters which forbids to put away a wife whatsoever disease she may have: you shall receive an unspeakable reward. Yea, and before the reward you shall be a very great gainer, both rendering her more obedient and becoming yourself more gentle thereby. It is said, for instance, that one of the heathen philosophers , who had a bad wife, a trifler and a brawler, when asked, Why, having such an one, he endured her; made reply, That he might have in his house a school and training-place of philosophy. For I shall be to all the rest meeker, says he, being here disciplined every day. Did you utter a great shout? Why, I at this moment am greatly mourning, when heathens prove better lovers of wisdom than we; we who are commanded to imitate angels, nay rather who are commanded to follow God Himself in respect of gentleness.

    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220126.htm