Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 9

Author Topic: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing  (Read 8632 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2019, 01:00:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 07, 2019, 12:42:57 PM
    No, he obeyed the trueand certain Popes, Pius XI and Pius XII.  Roma locuta est, cause finita est.
    Like the conciliar Legionaires of Christ once said:  “If the pope ordered us to say the clown mass tomorrow, we would stay up all night practicing it.”
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #76 on: January 07, 2019, 02:13:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • There is no holiness where there is dissent from the (true) Pope.
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #77 on: January 07, 2019, 02:19:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 07, 2019, 02:13:27 PM
    There is no holiness where there is dissent from the (true) Pope.
    That’s painting with a pretty broad brush.  By implication, it means either all the sedes or all the r&r’s are damned.
    It also ignores the possibility of a true pope being a dissenter, but read the quote from “Stubborn’s” post signature from St Bellarmine (no, I am not Stubborn).
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #78 on: January 07, 2019, 03:48:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 07, 2019, 02:19:34 PM
    That’s painting with a pretty broad brush.  By implication, it means either all the sedes or all the r&r’s are damned.
    It also ignores the possibility of a true pope being a dissenter, but read the quote from “Stubborn’s” post signature from St Bellarmine (no, I am not Stubborn).
    It’s direct from St Pope Pius X.  Not my words, his words.
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #79 on: January 07, 2019, 06:04:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 07, 2019, 12:42:57 PM
    No, he obeyed the trueand certain Popes, Pius XI and Pius XII.  Roma locuta est, cause finita est.
    The novelty of a music conductor leading the laity from the altar rail is the subject of this thread. Please post where Pius XI and XII said that a mass should have a music conductor lead the laity from the altar rail.
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #80 on: January 07, 2019, 06:13:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 07, 2019, 02:13:27 PM
    There is no holiness where there is dissent from the (true) Pope.
    A Catholic educated in the history of the liturgical movement understands the reformers of the liturgy were the dissenters (and that Benedict XV, Pius XI and Pius XII revolted against St. Pius X):
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f080_Dialogue_8.htm
    It is they, therefore, who are the dissenters, and they, therefore, who fall under your (and Pius X's) condemnation.
    As for the pre-conciliar modernist American bishops who imported the dialogue Mass (and girls in choir, which was explicitly condemned by Pius X), see here:
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Snap/f080_Dialogue_8_1.pdf
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #81 on: January 07, 2019, 06:25:26 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 07, 2019, 06:13:01 PM
    A Catholic educated in the history of the liturgical movement understands the reformers of the liturgy were the dissenters (and that Benedict XV, Pius XI and Pius XII revolted against St. Pius X):
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f080_Dialogue_8.htm
    It is they, therefore, who are the dissenters, and they, therefore, who fall under your (and Pius X's) condemnation.
    As for the pre-conciliar modernist American bishops who imported the dialogue Mass (and girls in choir, which was explicitly condemned by Pius X), see here:
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Snap/f080_Dialogue_8_1.pdf
    From the article above:

    "The really revolutionary element of Divini Cultus, however, is that female singers of the liturgical texts were promoted by Pope Pius XI himself. As we have seen with his blessing of Justine Ward’s work, he had already approved girl choristers, even though they had been banned by his predecessor. 

    Americanist Card. Gibbons was a friend of Roosevelt and an opposer of St. Pius X
    Whereas Pius X ordered that liturgical chant should be taught to seminarians and clerics and restricted to their use, Pius XI extended this instruction to the whole Catholic population, starting in the schools. He told heads of religious communities of women as well as men to “devote particular attention to the achievement of this purpose in the various educational institutions committed to their care.” (7) 

    This not only means that females were also allowed to perform a liturgical function, but that choirs should be formed for their instruction in the Chant. It was a concession to the recalcitrant American Bishops. Predictably, it led to a divisive situation with Bishops everywhere taking the part of Pius XI against Pius X and leading the faithful to do likewise."
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #82 on: January 07, 2019, 06:31:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 07, 2019, 06:25:26 PM
    From the article above:

    "The really revolutionary element of Divini Cultus, however, is that female singers of the liturgical texts were promoted by Pope Pius XI himself. As we have seen with his blessing of Justine Ward’s work, he had already approved girl choristers, even though they had been banned by his predecessor.

    Americanist Card. Gibbons was a friend of Roosevelt and an opposer of St. Pius X
    Whereas Pius X ordered that liturgical chant should be taught to seminarians and clerics and restricted to their use, Pius XI extended this instruction to the whole Catholic population, starting in the schools. He told heads of religious communities of women as well as men to “devote particular attention to the achievement of this purpose in the various educational institutions committed to their care.” (7)

    This not only means that females were also allowed to perform a liturgical function, but that choirs should be formed for their instruction in the Chant. It was a concession to the recalcitrant American Bishops. Predictably, it led to a divisive situation with Bishops everywhere taking the part of Pius XI against Pius X and leading the faithful to do likewise."
    At this point, supporters of congregational singing need to ask themselves an honest question:
    If women can suddenly become members of the choir (by episcopal revolt against Pope St. Pius X), thereby usurping a liturgical function, then per the Novus Ordo, what logical objection can there be to altar girls (likewise performing a liturgical function)?
    Perhaps now you can see the problem with congregational singing (and the Dialogue Mass, in which women also make the spoken or sung responses, usurping a liturgical roll, and much closer to the altar than from the choir loft!)?
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #83 on: January 07, 2019, 06:32:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 07, 2019, 06:31:05 PM
    At this point, supporters of congregational singing need to ask themselves an honest question:
    If women can suddenly become members of the choir (by episcopal revolt against Pope St. Pius X), thereby usurping a liturgical function, then per the Novus Ordo, what logical objection can there be to altar girls (likewise performing a liturgical function)?
    Perhaps now you can see the problem with congregational singing (and the Dialogue Mass, in which women also make the spoken or sung responses, usurping a liturgical roll, and much closer to the altar than from the choir loft!)?
    Step by step by step...
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #84 on: January 07, 2019, 06:37:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f081_Dialogue_9.htm


    The beginning of the end of papal protection for liturgical tradition 

    With his support for congregational singing and responses in Divini Cultus, Pope Pius XI produced a landmark mandate for change, which corresponded neither with the lex orandi of the Roman rite nor with the requirements, interests or desires of the Catholic faithful who had been worshipping in silence for centuries. 

    Pius XI reportedly celebrated the dialogue Mass several times
    Pius XI is reported to have publicly celebrated the Dialogue Mass himself in 1922 and 1925 and to have encouraged individuals and groups who were consciously advancing the liturgical revolution. (3) 

    It is not surprising, therefore, that by the late 1920s, liturgical experimentation was already well under way in Europe, especially in some Benedictine Abbeys , (4) in the German-speaking lands (5) as well as in parts of America. (6) This involved “Dialogue Mass,” Mass facing the people, vernacular responses, congregational singing, Offertory procession, handshaking etc., all of which went into the melting pot to emerge as a ready-made template for a “democratized” liturgy. 

    So, by the time Pius XI issued Divini Cultus in 1928, the vague expression “active participation” had a circuмscribed meaning among the reformers, but was unknown among the mass of ordinary Catholics who had never asked for it. This suggests that the spirit, which hovered over Pius XI when he recommended “active participation,” was akin to the spirit of Beauduin, which eventually gave rise to a new perception of the Church and the priesthood. 
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #85 on: January 07, 2019, 08:53:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • I’ll stick with the Vicars of Jesus Christ on earth, Popes Pius XI and Pius XII, not the dissenter group TIA.  
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #86 on: January 07, 2019, 08:55:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • For a withering indictment of the dialogue Mass (and the modernist standing nonsense the SSPX is now pushing in its chapels to reverence the priest), see this video from Fr. Jenkins (a sedevacantist priest), see this video from minute 7:02 - 23:45

    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #87 on: January 07, 2019, 08:56:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 07, 2019, 08:53:57 PM
    I’ll stick with the Vicars of Jesus Christ on earth, Popes Pius XI and Pius XII, not the dissenter group TIA.  
    I'll stick with Pope St. Pius X and all the vicars which preceded him, and not the dissenter popes who rejected their predecessors!
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #88 on: January 07, 2019, 09:01:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 07, 2019, 08:53:57 PM
    I’ll stick with the Vicars of Jesus Christ on earth, Popes Pius XI and Pius XII, not the dissenter group TIA.  
    Stick with them on what? Going to a mass with a conductor leading the singing in front of the altar rail? You are not ever clear on what you are "sticking with" , nor posting the quotes from Pius XI and XII which you claim you are flowing. 
    Logged

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #89 on: January 07, 2019, 09:03:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Anonymous on January 07, 2019, 06:04:52 PM
    The novelty of a music conductor leading the laity from the altar rail is the subject of this thread. Please post where Pius XI and XII said that a mass should have a music conductor lead the laity from the altar rail.
    Chapter 3 #5 of the decree of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, De Musica Sacra et sacra liturgia
    Sept. 3, 1958, approved by Pope Pius XII.  
    Logged
    Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 9
    « previous next »