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Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2019, 06:45:36 PM »
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  • Dialogue Mass - I
    A Plea for Silent Participation in the Liturgy
    Dr. Carol Byrne, Great Britain
    Some priests in the Traditionalist Movement are starting to introduce “dialogue Masses” for their parishioners. To shed light on the inappropriateness of this bad custom of “active participation of the faithful,” nothing could be more useful than this series by Dr. Carol Byrne that TIA starts to post today. We hope our readers will take advantage of the sound arguments of this careful study. The Editor.


    Introduction 

    By common consent, the post-Vatican II Hierarchy of the Church maintains that “active participation” of all the faithful in the liturgy is “the aim to be considered before all else” (1) – even, as it turned out, before respect for Tradition, reverence for the Blessed Sacrament, a sense of the transcendent, or decorum and modesty in the house of God.

    Just how did the Bishops arrive at this astonishing conclusion? By falsely presenting the reforms they have implemented as a continuation of the work of Pope Pius X whose motu proprio, Tra le Sollecitudini (TLS) first contained the word “active” in its Italian (though not, significantly, in its Latin) version to describe lay participation in the Mass.


    Praying silently at Mass, a centuries long tradition
    [color][size][font]
    It is pertinent to ask how such a word, dangerously imprecise in its scope, could have found its way into a juridical code of sacred music intended to apply the Pope’s instructions on the liturgy with the force of law and by his own Apostolic Authority. 

    “Activity” had never been a defining characteristic of lay participation at Mass throughout the Church’s history. Therefore, some explanation is needed as to why it suddenly acquired an overwhelming significance in the early part of the 20th century and how it came to have a far reaching effect in the Liturgical Movement. 

    History has shown that the single word “active” created a Mexican wave that rippled through the 20th century, gathering momentum as it went, until it engulfed the entire Church with the blessing of Vatican II’s Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium on the Liturgy (1963). Ever since, “active participation” has taken on a life of its own and continues to be reinforced with a zeal surpassed only by the hostility of the reformers for the traditional Latin Mass. 

    We know from one of the progressivist Fathers of Vatican II, Card. Godfried Danneels of Belgium who had been involved in drafting the Constitution on the Liturgy, that the aim of “active participation” was to democratize the liturgy by blurring the distinction between priestly and lay roles: 

    “From its very beginnings, the aim of the liturgical movement, which originated in Belgium in 1909, was to close the gap between the official liturgy of the priest and that of the people. The term ‘active participation’ was born out of this movement and has since become part of our common usage.” (2)


    [/font][/size][/color]
    Active participation makes lay people equal to priests
    [color][size][font]
    Its usage has become so common that hardly anyone now stands aghast at the suggestion that lay people can be “empowered” to exercise an official role in the liturgy through their “active participation.” This was a concept promoted by Vatican II, but the traditional teaching of the Church, as explained by Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei, is different. (3) 

    From this we learn that the priest, through the Sacrament of Ordination, acts in the name of the Church, in an official act of the liturgy. Lay people, however, by virtue of their Baptism, merely associate themselves with the official liturgy through internal participation (by faith and prayer). 

    The result of the new emphasis on “active participation” was that the people in the pews, who had generally participated in the ceremonies of the Roman rite in silence, were now transformed into rivals in a liturgical war with the clergy over the right to officiate in the public prayer of the Church. 

    St. Pius X’s intentions 

    The subject matter of Tra le Sollecitudini was the restoration of sacred music, particularly Gregorian chant, in the Church’s liturgy. Its purpose was to lay down the true principles of liturgical music, both vocal and instrumental, to be disseminated throughout the world. 

    It is of the greatest importance to our study that this motu proprio was not about congregational singing in the liturgy but about the clergy and the choir as the only legitimate executors of liturgical chant. It laid down no obligation for the congregation to join in the chant or requirement for lay people (apart from selected choir members) to be trained in liturgical singing. Nor did it state or even imply that silence on the part of the congregation indicated an absence or deficiency in their full participation in the liturgy. 

    Some points of concern 

    The motu proprio was first published in Italian on November 22, 1903, in the Acta Sanctae Sedis, the official organ of the Holy See, but the Latin version bearing the same date did not see the light of day until much later, after many intervening docuмents. Both texts can be accessed .pdf]here. (4)


    [/font][/size][/color]
    Pope Pius X's aim was to reform Gregorian chant, not active participation
    [color][size][font]
    This wide separation of the texts is a departure from the protocol observed by the compilers of the Acta Sanctae Sedis, who normally published vernacular and Latin texts consecutively for the purposes of transparency and convenient reference. Furthermore, it was uncharacteristic of the Holy See’s policy to issue a legislative docuмent of such weight and solemnity concerning the entire Catholic world in the vernacular and only much later in the universal language of the Church. 

    Another notable anomaly is the manner in which the Latin version is dated. Instead of the customary format found in the Acta Sanctae Sedis since 1865, it was written according to the method of calculation of the ancient Romans as X Kalendas Decembris. Thus the impression is given that the Latin text had been composed long after TLS, as if it were an afterthought and of relative unimportance. Only those who are familiar with the ancient dating system would realize that X Kalendas Decembris is, in fact, the equivalent of November 22, the same date as TLS. (5) 

    This has prompted some to assume that the Italian version, simply because it appeared first, is the official papal text. (6) TLS may be “official” in the sense of having been published by officials of the Vatican bureaucracy, but the fact remains that the Latin is invariably the only authoritative and official version of papal docuмents, even if it happens that this text only becomes available later. 

    Out of sight, out of mind 

    Therefore, it is to be deplored that the Latin version was buried from immediate view and relegated to an inconvenient position. To add to the difficulties in locating the Latin text, the page number in the Acta Sanctae Sedis was printed as 587 instead of 387, thus misdirecting the researcher. 

    Why such obfuscation surrounding the only version of the motu proprio (i.e. the Latin) that conveys in indisputable terms the mind of the Pope? The answer will become clear when we come to examine the important discrepancies between the two docuмents. 

    Which version to follow – the Italian or Latin? 

    As the use of Latin in drafting docuмents was considered by the Church as the ultimate safeguard of objectivity, it is vitally important for the faithful transmission of the truth in a seamless way. Later generations of Catholics can recognize in the Latin words the exact meaning intended by the Popes. Thus it averted the risk of misleading the faithful through imprecise formulae or the rapid changes in meaning typical of vernacular languages. 

    As we shall see, misrepresentation is exactly what happened when TLS was placed into the hands of liturgical reformers. An examination of this docuмent will show that it contains a number of key words and phrases for which there is no translational equivalence in the Latin version. 

    In other words, ideas had been inserted into TLS that pander to the aims and objectives of those who wanted to change the liturgy in ways not envisaged by Pope Pius X. Someone even managed to get the word attiva (“active”) written into the text of TLS to describe the participation of the laity, a term entirely missing in the Latin version

    It is noteworthy that the reformers could not have misinterpreted the Pope’s words in the Latin version because it was drafted with tamper-proof precision designed to give the crystal clear meaning of the Pope and deny any wiggle room for liturgical interventionists. But, for all its official status, the Italian version, as with all docuмents in the vernacular, could offer no such guarantees. In fact, the more it was translated into other vernacular languages, the greater the confusion and error that was transmitted. 

    Continued [/font][/size][/color]


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #46 on: January 03, 2019, 06:47:42 PM »
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  • Dialogue Mass - I
    A Plea for Silent Participation in the Liturgy
    Dr. Carol Byrne, Great Britain
    Some priests in the Traditionalist Movement are starting to introduce “dialogue Masses” for their parishioners. To shed light on the inappropriateness of this bad custom of “active participation of the faithful,” nothing could be more useful than this series by Dr. Carol Byrne that TIA starts to post today. We hope our readers will take advantage of the sound arguments of this careful study. The Editor.


    Introduction

    By common consent, the post-Vatican II Hierarchy of the Church maintains that “active participation” of all the faithful in the liturgy is “the aim to be considered before all else” (1) – even, as it turned out, before respect for Tradition, reverence for the Blessed Sacrament, a sense of the transcendent, or decorum and modesty in the house of God.

    Just how did the Bishops arrive at this astonishing conclusion? By falsely presenting the reforms they have implemented as a continuation of the work of Pope Pius X whose motu proprio, Tra le Sollecitudini (TLS) first contained the word “active” in its Italian (though not, significantly, in its Latin) version to describe lay participation in the Mass.



    Praying silently at Mass, a centuries long tradition
    [size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
    It is pertinent to ask how such a word, dangerously imprecise in its scope, could have found its way into a juridical code of sacred music intended to apply the Pope’s instructions on the liturgy with the force of law and by his own Apostolic Authority.

    “Activity” had never been a defining characteristic of lay participation at Mass throughout the Church’s history. Therefore, some explanation is needed as to why it suddenly acquired an overwhelming significance in the early part of the 20th century and how it came to have a far reaching effect in the Liturgical Movement.

    History has shown that the single word “active” created a Mexican wave that rippled through the 20th century, gathering momentum as it went, until it engulfed the entire Church with the blessing of Vatican II’s Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium on the Liturgy (1963). Ever since, “active participation” has taken on a life of its own and continues to be reinforced with a zeal surpassed only by the hostility of the reformers for the traditional Latin Mass.

    We know from one of the progressivist Fathers of Vatican II, Card. Godfried Danneels of Belgium who had been involved in drafting the Constitution on the Liturgy, that the aim of “active participation” was to democratize the liturgy by blurring the distinction between priestly and lay roles:

    “From its very beginnings, the aim of the liturgical movement, which originated in Belgium in 1909, was to close the gap between the official liturgy of the priest and that of the people. The term ‘active participation’ was born out of this movement and has since become part of our common usage.” (2)


    [/font][/size]

    Active participation makes lay people equal to priests
    [size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
    Its usage has become so common that hardly anyone now stands aghast at the suggestion that lay people can be “empowered” to exercise an official role in the liturgy through their “active participation.” This was a concept promoted by Vatican II, but the traditional teaching of the Church, as explained by Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei, is different. (3)

    From this we learn that the priest, through the Sacrament of Ordination, acts in the name of the Church, in an official act of the liturgy. Lay people, however, by virtue of their Baptism, merely associate themselves with the official liturgy through internal participation (by faith and prayer).

    The result of the new emphasis on “active participation” was that the people in the pews, who had generally participated in the ceremonies of the Roman rite in silence, were now transformed into rivals in a liturgical war with the clergy over the right to officiate in the public prayer of the Church.

    St. Pius X’s intentions

    The subject matter of Tra le Sollecitudini was the restoration of sacred music, particularly Gregorian chant, in the Church’s liturgy. Its purpose was to lay down the true principles of liturgical music, both vocal and instrumental, to be disseminated throughout the world.

    It is of the greatest importance to our study that this motu proprio was not about congregational singing in the liturgy but about the clergy and the choir as the only legitimate executors of liturgical chant. It laid down no obligation for the congregation to join in the chant or requirement for lay people (apart from selected choir members) to be trained in liturgical singing. Nor did it state or even imply that silence on the part of the congregation indicated an absence or deficiency in their full participation in the liturgy.

    Some points of concern

    The motu proprio was first published in Italian on November 22, 1903, in the Acta Sanctae Sedis, the official organ of the Holy See, but the Latin version bearing the same date did not see the light of day until much later, after many intervening docuмents. Both texts can be accessed .pdf]here. (4)


    [/font][/size]

    Pope Pius X's aim was to reform Gregorian chant, not active participation
    [size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
    This wide separation of the texts is a departure from the protocol observed by the compilers of the Acta Sanctae Sedis, who normally published vernacular and Latin texts consecutively for the purposes of transparency and convenient reference. Furthermore, it was uncharacteristic of the Holy See’s policy to issue a legislative docuмent of such weight and solemnity concerning the entire Catholic world in the vernacular and only much later in the universal language of the Church.

    Another notable anomaly is the manner in which the Latin version is dated. Instead of the customary format found in the Acta Sanctae Sedis since 1865, it was written according to the method of calculation of the ancient Romans as X Kalendas Decembris. Thus the impression is given that the Latin text had been composed long after TLS, as if it were an afterthought and of relative unimportance. Only those who are familiar with the ancient dating system would realize that X Kalendas Decembris is, in fact, the equivalent of November 22, the same date as TLS. (5)

    This has prompted some to assume that the Italian version, simply because it appeared first, is the official papal text. (6) TLS may be “official” in the sense of having been published by officials of the Vatican bureaucracy, but the fact remains that the Latin is invariably the only authoritative and official version of papal docuмents, even if it happens that this text only becomes available later.

    Out of sight, out of mind

    Therefore, it is to be deplored that the Latin version was buried from immediate view and relegated to an inconvenient position. To add to the difficulties in locating the Latin text, the page number in the Acta Sanctae Sedis was printed as 587 instead of 387, thus misdirecting the researcher.

    Why such obfuscation surrounding the only version of the motu proprio (i.e. the Latin) that conveys in indisputable terms the mind of the Pope? The answer will become clear when we come to examine the important discrepancies between the two docuмents.

    Which version to follow – the Italian or Latin?

    As the use of Latin in drafting docuмents was considered by the Church as the ultimate safeguard of objectivity, it is vitally important for the faithful transmission of the truth in a seamless way. Later generations of Catholics can recognize in the Latin words the exact meaning intended by the Popes. Thus it averted the risk of misleading the faithful through imprecise formulae or the rapid changes in meaning typical of vernacular languages.

    As we shall see, misrepresentation is exactly what happened when TLS was placed into the hands of liturgical reformers. An examination of this docuмent will show that it contains a number of key words and phrases for which there is no translational equivalence in the Latin version.

    In other words, ideas had been inserted into TLS that pander to the aims and objectives of those who wanted to change the liturgy in ways not envisaged by Pope Pius X. Someone even managed to get the word attiva (“active”) written into the text of TLS to describe the participation of the laity, a term entirely missing in the Latin version.

    It is noteworthy that the reformers could not have misinterpreted the Pope’s words in the Latin version because it was drafted with tamper-proof precision designed to give the crystal clear meaning of the Pope and deny any wiggle room for liturgical interventionists. But, for all its official status, the Italian version, as with all docuмents in the vernacular, could offer no such guarantees. In fact, the more it was translated into other vernacular languages, the greater the confusion and error that was transmitted.

    Continued [/font][/size]

    I forgot to add the attribution/link to the above article (which is only part 1 of a book-length study): https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f073_Dialogue_1.htm


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #47 on: January 03, 2019, 08:21:03 PM »
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  • Downthumb this anonymous trash. The CI member who posted it even knew it was trash; hence the reason it was posted anonymously.

    St. Pius X clearly said he wanted the Faithful to sing the Kyrie, Gloria, etc. While interpreting his Motu Proprio, this fact should be taken into account.

    This was clearly authored by an American, which is the only nation where the people don't like to actively participate in singing. Pretty much every other culture around the world the people love to sing. It isn't something left for "music majors" or "the choir". Sometimes I hate American culture. This is one of those times.

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #48 on: January 03, 2019, 08:40:03 PM »
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  • Downthumb this anonymous trash. The CI member who posted it even knew it was trash; hence the reason it was posted anonymously.

    St. Pius X clearly said he wanted the Faithful to sing the Kyrie, Gloria, etc. While interpreting his Motu Proprio, this fact should be taken into account.

    This was clearly authored by an American, which is the only nation where the people don't like to actively participate in singing. Pretty much every other culture around the world the people love to sing. It isn't something left for "music majors" or "the choir". Sometimes I hate American culture. This is one of those times.
    The author is British.

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #49 on: January 03, 2019, 09:04:45 PM »
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  • Downthumb this anonymous trash. The CI member who posted it even knew it was trash; hence the reason it was posted anonymously.

    St. Pius X clearly said he wanted the Faithful to sing the Kyrie, Gloria, etc. While interpreting his Motu Proprio, this fact should be taken into account.

    This was clearly authored by an American, which is the only nation where the people don't like to actively participate in singing. Pretty much every other culture around the world the people love to sing. It isn't something left for "music majors" or "the choir". Sometimes I hate American culture. This is one of those times.
    By that rationale, your own post is trash, hence the reason YOU posted it anonymously.  But if you want to critique Dr. Carol's study, then have at it!


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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #50 on: January 05, 2019, 09:56:51 AM »
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  • What a silly thing to say that the dialogue mass is only hated in America, when the reality is that it is hated in all the Anglo countries of the world (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, etc).  The SSPX has met significant resistance in all these countries where they tried to import this French/Belgian modernism.  If the other European countries have accepted the novelty of the dialogue Mass (which has no precedence in the Church before Beauduin ad company in the early 1900s), it is not because those innovations are good or traditional, but because the liberals were successful in finding weak clerics, bishops, and popes to accept their modernism (and then exported it throughout the world like the SSPX is doing today).

    As for the idea that the dialogue Mass is traditional because Archbishop Lefebvre permitted it, it should be recognized that the dialogue Mass was already triumphant all over France and western and central Europe by the time he was an adult/priest, and this was de facto the only Mass he ever knew (i.e., for him, it was normal, even if in the history of the church it is a complete anomaly and aberration).  For this, I say give the man a pass.

    And regarding the contention that because the dialogue mass arrived before Vatican II, it is therefore traditional, well, I would recommend Fr. Didier Bonneterre's (SSPX) book "Liturgical Revolution," which details how these modernists bent the mass to their own ends and used it to introduce new concepts like Mass facing the people, vernacular, etc.


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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #51 on: January 05, 2019, 10:08:12 AM »
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  • A modernist explains why the modernists love the dialogue mass: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/mcnamarasblog/2009/01/h-a-reinhold-and-the-dialogue-mass.html 


    Today marks the death of Hans Ansgar Reinhold (1907-1968), a German born priest who took a leading role in the Liturgical Movement. Begun in late 19th century Europe, the movement made its way to America in the 1920’s. Its purpose was twofold: to make the liturgy more attuned to early Christian traditions, and to make it more relevant to modern Christian life. One of its major themes was the connection between the liturgy and social action. Born in Hamburg, he studied with Monsignor Romano Guardini at the University of Freiburg. In 1925 he was ordained a priest. An opponent of the nαzι regime, he was forced to leave Germany in 1935. In America he served at several parishes while promoting liturgical reform. He wrote several books on the subject, including The American Parish and the Roman Liturgy (1958) and Bringing the Mass to the People (1960). He was a major proponent of the “Dialogue Mass,” which stressed active participation by the laity in the preconciliar era.

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #52 on: January 05, 2019, 11:09:07 AM »
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  • Downthumb this anonymous trash. The CI member who posted it even knew it was trash; hence the reason it was posted anonymously.

    St. Pius X clearly said he wanted the Faithful to sing the Kyrie, Gloria, etc. While interpreting his Motu Proprio, this fact should be taken into account.

    This was clearly authored by an American, which is the only nation where the people don't like to actively participate in singing. Pretty much every other culture around the world the people love to sing. It isn't something left for "music majors" or "the choir". Sometimes I hate American culture. This is one of those times.
    I have no idea how this thread got from its initial point (a valid one) to active participation.

    Yes, the Faithful should sing from the Kyriale. That's not the issue. I'll present a hypothesis about the actual issue.

    IF the faithful cannot follow chironomy -- the conducting and leading of Gregorian chant -- , or read chant notation, period, which is basically all non-Traditionalist clergy, schola directors and students of sacred music...

    THEN this narcissistic conductor of the schola should not be treating the congregation like their own schola cantorum

    They know the Kyriale because they've heard that before at Mass, and if one goes every Sunday of the year, one will likely hear most, if not all of the Gregorian Mass settings. 

    Should there be a dialogue Mass ever? No. That is a French tradition and it can stay in the Francophone world. But that is not the point here.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #53 on: January 05, 2019, 11:11:15 AM »
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  • And to add to that hypothesis:

    IF The Mass is not as it was in the 18th and 19th century with narcissistic operatic bombastic solos, and setting of popular music to Latin texts, and it is about the Holy Sacrifice

    THEN this narcissist's place is in the choir loft. 
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #54 on: January 05, 2019, 11:26:38 AM »
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  • I have no idea how this thread got from its initial point (a valid one) to active participation.

    Yes, the Faithful should sing from the Kyriale. That's not the issue. I'll present a hypothesis about the actual issue.

    IF the faithful cannot follow chironomy -- the conducting and leading of Gregorian chant -- , or read chant notation, period, which is basically all non-Traditionalist clergy, schola directors and students of sacred music...

    THEN this narcissistic conductor of the schola should not be treating the congregation like their own schola cantorum.

    They know the Kyriale because they've heard that before at Mass, and if one goes every Sunday of the year, one will likely hear most, if not all of the Gregorian Mass settings.

    Should there be a dialogue Mass ever? No. That is a French tradition and it can stay in the Francophone world. But that is not the point here.
    No, the faithful should NOT sing from the Kyrie (or any other portion of the Mass).
    Congregational singing has no precedent in the Catholic Church prior to the liturgical movement, unless you go all the way back almost to apostolic times.

    The only singing during the Mass is done formerly by the choir (which was completely composed of clerics), and is more recent times by a trained choir.

    To have the whole congregation singing the whole Mass (or any part of it, for that matter) is a total innovation of the 20th century liturgical movement.

    To get back to it, you must demolish 1600+ years of organic liturgical development, to be the Church's liturgical messiah, and finally uncover "true" liturgy.

    Apparently, you did not read any of Dr. Byrne's study cited previously (much less attempt to refute it).

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #55 on: January 05, 2019, 11:34:17 AM »
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  • Even if every person in Sanford, FL has a voice like Pavorati, and a PhD in Gregorian Chant, still they have no business singing the parts proper to a choir.  Everyone forgets that the choir used to be completely comprised of priests and monks, and it was to these that the responses were appointed.  Later, lay choirs were introduced where there were not sufficient numbers of priests/monks to make the responses (i.e., your average parish church).  Then lay choirs were introduced everywhere.  So far, no problem: A high Mass (or missa cantata) would not otherwise be possible.  But the idea of the whole darn church singing was a terrible innovation with ulterior motives today manifest worldwide.  Have you ever been on a pilgrimage in Europe?  When they say mass, they get a band leader/conductor up on a podium flapping his arms around for the faithful, who from 300 yards away begin singing at the rear of the crowd prayers that ended 5 seconds ago at the front of the crowd.  It is total chaos and cacophany.  terrible to listen to.  The priest, front of the crowd, and back of the crowd are each at 3 different points of the Mass.......but we must all "participate"......."actively."  No thanks!


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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #56 on: January 05, 2019, 11:41:05 AM »
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  •  A little off subject, but not too far: Seems to me that a lot of SSPX priests used to say their low Masses with a very quiet voice (i.e., You could not hear their responses, or barely so, from the pews).  In recent years, the priests at my chapel all say the prayers very loudly, as though they were dialogue wiwth the people, rather than to God.  This discussion made me realize this subtle change.  Has anyone else noticed this in their chapels?  I would prefer to hear responses from people who have attended the SSPX for at least 10-15 years, otherewise those with less tenure really have no basis compare recent years vs former years.

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #57 on: January 05, 2019, 11:59:42 AM »
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  • Do sedevacantists accept dialogue masses?

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #58 on: January 05, 2019, 12:04:48 PM »
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  • A little off subject, but not too far: Seems to me that a lot of SSPX priests used to say their low Masses with a very quiet voice (i.e., You could not hear their responses, or barely so, from the pews).  In recent years, the priests at my chapel all say the prayers very loudly, as though they were dialogue wiwth the people, rather than to God.  This discussion made me realize this subtle change.  Has anyone else noticed this in their chapels?  I would prefer to hear responses from people who have attended the SSPX for at least 10-15 years, otherewise those with less tenure really have no basis compare recent years vs former years.
    Attended first SSPX in 1995, departed SSPX in 2014.  What you say is true, with one exception, a French priest.

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #59 on: January 06, 2019, 11:49:26 AM »
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  • Would you find it distracting if someone were to "conduct" the congregation from the altar rail with his back toward the altar during sung parts of the Mass? Especially since there is a choir loft/choir to begin with?
    Did the "conductor" clown lead the laity from the altar rail again this Sunday January 6th, the Feast of the Epiphany ?