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Offline JezusDeKoning

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Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2019, 03:02:58 PM »
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  • It's upstaging the Holy Sacrifice and not adding to it in any way. 

    In the Classical and Romantic era (from 1750-1900 and composers like Mozart, Beethoven, etc.), the music used at Mass began to get exceedingly bombastic, adding brass, strings, and . And it was being performed as liturgical music, especially in Mozart's native Austria and in Italy.  But most of it (90%) has no place in the Mass because it was distracting from the Holy Sacrifice and turning it into a spectacle.

    This is why St. Pope Pius X released Tra le sollecitudini in 1903 and mandated a worldwide return to Gregorian chant because it accompanied the liturgy and didn't overshadow it.

    The schola director is overshadowing the liturgy by trying to show off with this practice. Even then, the people cannot understand his direction. The average trained musician will get about 4 weeks exposure to Gregorian chant, and even then, none of it is singing it or learning to read it -- simply the beginning of Western liturgical music and how important the Church's chant was in that role.

    But your average untrained musician will not understand an arsis or thesis (conducting chant and its stress).  That would be the equivalent of asking a native, monolingual English speaker to read Tolstoy in Russian. They'll get it by ear. They do not need this pretentious loon in the front acting like he knows what he's doing.
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #16 on: January 02, 2019, 04:13:31 PM »
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  • It's upstaging the Holy Sacrifice and not adding to it in any way.

    In the Classical and Romantic era (from 1750-1900 and composers like Mozart, Beethoven, etc.), the music used at Mass began to get exceedingly bombastic, adding brass, strings, and . And it was being performed as liturgical music, especially in Mozart's native Austria and in Italy.  But most of it (90%) has no place in the Mass because it was distracting from the Holy Sacrifice and turning it into a spectacle.

    This is why St. Pope Pius X released Tra le sollecitudini in 1903 and mandated a worldwide return to Gregorian chant because it accompanied the liturgy and didn't overshadow it.

    The schola director is overshadowing the liturgy by trying to show off with this practice. Even then, the people cannot understand his direction. The average trained musician will get about 4 weeks exposure to Gregorian chant, and even then, none of it is singing it or learning to read it -- simply the beginning of Western liturgical music and how important the Church's chant was in that role.

    But your average untrained musician will not understand an arsis or thesis (conducting chant and its stress).  That would be the equivalent of asking a native, monolingual English speaker to read Tolstoy in Russian. They'll get it by ear. They do not need this pretentious loon in the front acting like he knows what he's doing.
    I don’t care if it was Vivaldi up there flapping around.  Sit down and shut up so I can concentrate on the mass!


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #17 on: January 02, 2019, 04:30:54 PM »
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  • Yes, that's exactly my point. There were musical practices that greatly took away from the Mass back then, but Pope Pius X brought Gregorian chant back to eliminate those practices. Ironically, he is using Gregorian chant to distract from the Mass.

    It is such a distracting practice. They don't need Flappity-flap-flap-flap in the front. They need him in the loft, upstairs. He needs to stay up there. 
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #18 on: January 02, 2019, 04:41:38 PM »
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  • Yes, that's exactly my point. There were musical practices that greatly took away from the Mass back then, but Pope Pius X brought Gregorian chant back to eliminate those practices. Ironically, he is using Gregorian chant to distract from the Mass.

    It is such a distracting practice. They don't need Flappity-flap-flap-flap in the front. They need him in the loft, upstairs. He needs to stay up there.
    Yes, but since we are all priests, we should all stand like the priest, and “actively participate” like the priest, and sing as though we were in choir (standing, of course), or else -so say the conciliarists, and now the sspx- we aren’t sufficiently “participating.”  But Rome wants to see “progress” at sspx chapels in this regard, so the sspx has begun the conditioning process (and not just in Florida).

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #19 on: January 02, 2019, 05:00:43 PM »
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  • Yes, but since we are all priests, we should all stand like the priest, and “actively participate” like the priest, and sing as though we were in choir (standing, of course), or else -so say the conciliarists, and now the sspx- we aren’t sufficiently “participating.”  But Rome wants to see “progress” at sspx chapels in this regard, so the sspx has begun the conditioning process (and not just in Florida).
    Never experienced even a lick of that in St. Cloud. My Society chapel in all things, music included, has never been anything but anti-Conciliar. And I've been there for 3 years, parishioner, singing and directing the choir.

    This is a single chapel doing one thing. And doing it very badly.
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca


    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #20 on: January 02, 2019, 05:05:41 PM »
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  • Almost impossible to understand the sermon by the priest in the video, except when he starts to complain about people who complain and are a drag.  LOL, the priest gave a sermon about not complaining, meanwhile all he is doing is complaining and he sounds like a drag himself.  Maybe he wants the “exclusive” on complaining and being a drag.  Very negative disposition.  

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #21 on: January 02, 2019, 05:12:12 PM »
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  • Guarantee you all that the plug is soon going to be pulled on that video!

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #22 on: January 02, 2019, 05:44:16 PM »
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  • Never experienced even a lick of that in St. Cloud. My Society chapel in all things, music included, has never been anything but anti-Conciliar. And I've been there for 3 years, parishioner, singing and directing the choir.

    This is a single chapel doing one thing. And doing it very badly.
    Sorry, but you are wrong (though you probably could not know it, being a relative newbie in St. Cloud): Your former pastor (Fr. Leith) used to give anti-resistance sermons, and just to the south of you in St. Paul, the SSPX chapel changed "rubrics" for the faithful so that now they all stand at high Mass throughout the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei (and the altar boys recite the Domine non sum dignus with the priest), among other things.  Apparently the faithful were told that standing was even more reverent than kneeling (!), but none of them ever thought to ask why they don't all stand up for the consecration then (or why Our Lord did not say "Every knee must stiffen" instead of "Every knee will bend" if standing is a more reverent posture.  The priest had cards with the new rubrics placed in the pews.  A few resist, but most go along with it.  I believe there are several on CI who go to that chapel who could verify this.
    Its just one step short of what is happening in Sanford, and is probably the next logical step.


    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #23 on: January 02, 2019, 05:54:18 PM »
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  • Sorry, but you are wrong (though you probably could not know it, being a relative newbie in St. Cloud): Your former pastor (Fr. Leith) used to give anti-resistance sermons, and just to the south of you in St. Paul, the SSPX chapel changed "rubrics" for the faithful so that now they all stand at high Mass throughout the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei (and the altar boys recite the Domine non sum dignus with the priest), among other things.  Apparently the faithful were told that standing was even more reverent than kneeling (!), but none of them ever thought to ask why they don't all stand up for the consecration then (or why Our Lord did not say "Every knee must stiffen" instead of "Every knee will bend" if standing is a more reverent posture.  The priest had cards with the new rubrics placed in the pews.  A few resist, but most go along with it.  I believe there are several on CI who go to that chapel who could verify this.
    Its just one step short of what is happening in Sanford, and is probably the next logical step.
    [font=&quot,serif]You are too late in your warning, watch the video, the SSPX chapel in Sanford already changed rubrics for the faithful so that now they all stand at high Mass throughout the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei (and the altar boys recite the Domine non sum dignus with the priest), among other things. [/font][/color]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #24 on: January 02, 2019, 06:08:31 PM »
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  • They've done things like that on-and-off for many, many years ... since I was a seminarian in the late 80s and early 90s.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #25 on: January 02, 2019, 06:47:03 PM »
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  • The new Society is preparing you for”active” participation.
    Active participation is not the problem, it’s the new theology.  Pope Pius XI and XII, both solid and true Popes were moving the laity to much more active participation.  


    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #26 on: January 02, 2019, 07:02:15 PM »
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  • Active participation is not the problem, it’s the new theology.  Pope Pius XI and XII, both solid and true Popes were moving the laity to much more active participation.  
    The new theology is what gave rise to "active participation:"
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f079_Dialogue_7.htm 

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #27 on: January 02, 2019, 07:37:00 PM »
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  • Active participation is not the problem, it’s the new theology.  Pope Pius XI and XII, both solid and true Popes were moving the laity to much more active participation.  
    What does active participation mean to you? How does it take place? By your response, I think your have the Novus Ordo mindset on what it means. To you active participation means standing and singing and responding, like the choir and the altar servers. That's a total novelty. 
    Someone could be singing all the songs and responding for the altar server like in the Novus Ordo, yet they are internally thinking about the cute girl in the mini-skirt and tight top in front of them, or thinking about the Sunday football game coming up in 2 hours. 
    Meanwhile an elderly lady could be sitting during the whole mass without not making a sound but really active in conversation with Our Lord through the mass and her missal. That is real active participation.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #28 on: January 02, 2019, 08:53:16 PM »
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  • What does active participation mean to you? How does it take place? By your response, I think your have the Novus Ordo mindset on what it means. To you active participation means standing and singing and responding, like the choir and the altar servers. That's a total novelty.
    Someone could be singing all the songs and responding for the altar server like in the Novus Ordo, yet they are internally thinking about the cute girl in the mini-skirt and tight top in front of them, or thinking about the Sunday football game coming up in 2 hours.
    Meanwhile an elderly lady could be sitting during the whole mass without not making a sound but really active in conversation with Our Lord through the mass and her missal. That is real active participation.
    Did you just get hatched out of an egg?  The link above shows it was Pius XI and the modernist liturgists like Dom Lanbert Beauduin and Cardinal Mercier who considered "active participation" as "standing and singing and responding, like the choir and the altar servers," not me.  You are not condemning me (who rejects those innovations), but Pius XI who introduced them at the behest of the modernists who lobbied him to do so. 

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #29 on: January 02, 2019, 09:00:07 PM »
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  • Quote
    Pope Pius XI and XII, both solid and true Popes 
    Both of these were true popes, but they were NOT solid.  The last good pope we had was Pope St Pius X; that's over 100 years ago.  Since his death, modernism came out from underground, blossomed and spread its errors everywhere, especially while Pius XI and XII were popes.  Neither of them consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart.  They failed in this and in other ways.

     

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