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Author Topic: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing  (Read 3390 times)

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Anonymous

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Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
« Reply #120 on: January 08, 2019, 07:14:06 PM »
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  • The Catholic Encyclopedia was completed under Benedict XV, who relaxed the suppression of modernism and disbanded the Sodalitium Pianum, as is commonly known.
    He was also the first to say the experimental dialogue Mass, and consequently, it is not surprising to find the Encyclopedia endorsing congregational singing.
    Hence, the quote which you supply more or less acknowledges our contention, then shows the post-Pian author overturning Pius X's norms with a novel interpretation then in favor with BVX (and the popes which followed).
    The proof of this reading of things is that you will not find females in choir (unless we are speaking of conventual Masses in which case special laws govern) before Pius X in the entire history of the Church, unless you go all the way back almost to apostolic times (archaeologism).
    And more than this, not only did the same article you quoted from note a negative ruling in 1908 on the subject, but the newspaper article I quoted previous to you CE post clearly shows the American hierarchy as understanding Pius X affirmed the ban on women in the choir, and they were rebelling against it.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #121 on: January 08, 2019, 07:28:32 PM »
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  • More on the same subject:  http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/08/fr-paul-and-his-st-peters-singers.html#.XDVMFVxKiUk

    "St. Pius X had forbidden women to sing in scholas in his 1903 encyclical but Fr. Anthony Ruff's new book Sacred Music and Liturgical Reformdemonstrates two very important points with regard to this prohibition. 

    1) The prohibition against women singers was completely ignored all over Europe and especially the United States. The encyclical itself had a huge impact on the Catholic world but for this narrow point. In fact, "indults" to depart from the letter of the law were being issued by the Pope personally just days after publication [because of massive revolt], and ever more leniency was in effect within a few years at the hands of legislative bodies overseeing the liturgy. 

    It was nowhere enforced [because of massive revolt], and one can tell that just by looking at pictures of chant classes conducted by Justine Ward [feminist/modernist mentioned who had the ear of Pius XI, mentioned by Dr. Byrne] in the United States: more than half the students were girls and women. Indeed, women were at the forefront of the movement. The tradition of women singing at Mass has always been integral to life in a convent, and there are extensive records of women singing polyphony in England. As for the Vatican itself, its practice of using only men and boys to sing reflected a long-standing tradition and not so much an adherence to doctrinal norms. Later, as is well known, Pius XII legislated in favor of permitting women to sing, legislation which didn't change the practice much either since the original edict had not had much effect in any case [because of massive revolt]. 

    2) Fr. Ruff further demonstrates that the edict of Pius X had nothing to do with discrimination but rather stemmed from a widely held position of the Cecilian movement that the choir performed a clerical roll in the liturgy and hence it should share as closely as possible in the features of the clergy. The Cecilians believed that the singers should be men because the priesthood was limited to men; they further hoped that the vocation of schola member would be lifelong and that singers would, for example, under the ideal, receive tonsures. "


    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #122 on: January 09, 2019, 12:38:41 AM »
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  • This discussion makes me wonder how many Catholics no longer see themselves as subjects to the Pope, but rather see the Church as a democracy with lay veto power over the laws and teachings of the Popes, in this case Pius XI and Pius XII.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #123 on: January 09, 2019, 05:44:11 AM »
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  • This discussion makes me wonder how many Catholics no longer see themselves as subjects to the Pope, but rather see the Church as a democracy with lay veto power over the laws and teachings of the Popes, in this case Pius XI and Pius XII.
    That’s a rather ironic statement, coming from one who vetos the papacies of the last 6 pope’s!

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #124 on: January 09, 2019, 08:15:45 AM »
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  • Saint Pope Pius X taught:

    Distracted with so many occupations, it is easy to forget the things that lead to perfection in priestly life; it is easy [for the priest] to delude himself and to believe that, by busying himself with the salvation of the souls of others, he consequently works for his own sanctification. Alas, let not this delusion lead you to error, because nemo dat quod nemo habet [no one gives what he does not have]; and, in order to sanctify others, it is necessary not to neglect any of the ways proposed for the sanctification of our own selves.

    ...

    The Pope is the guardian of dogma and of morals; he is the custodian of the principles that make families sound, nations great, souls holy; he is the counsellor of princes and of peoples; he is the head under whom no one feels tyrannized because he represents God Himself; he is the supreme father who unites in himself all that may exist that is loving, tender, divine.

    It seems incredible, and is even painful, that there be priests to whom this recommendation must be made, but we are regrettably in our age in this hard, unhappy, situation of having to tell priests: love the Pope!

    And how must the Pope be loved? Non verbo neque lingua, sed opere et veritate. [Not in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth - 1 Jn iii, 18] When one loves a person, one tries to adhere in everything to his thoughts, to fulfill his will, to perform his wishes. And if Our Lord Jesus Christ said of Himself, "si quis diligit me, sermonem meum servabit," [if any one love me, he will keep my word - Jn xiv, 23] therefore, in order to demonstrate our love for the Pope, it is necessary to obey him. 

    Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey - that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.

    This is the cry of a heart filled with pain, that with deep sadness I express, not for your sake, dear brothers, but to deplore, with you, the conduct of so many priests, who not only allow themselves to debate and criticize the wishes of the Pope, but are not embarrassed to reach shameless and blatant disobedience, with so much scandal for the good and with so great damage to souls.

    Saint Pius X
    Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union 
    • November 18, 1912



    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #125 on: January 09, 2019, 09:03:41 AM »
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  • Saint Pope Pius X taught:

    Distracted with so many occupations, it is easy to forget the things that lead to perfection in priestly life; it is easy [for the priest] to delude himself and to believe that, by busying himself with the salvation of the souls of others, he consequently works for his own sanctification. Alas, let not this delusion lead you to error, because nemo dat quod nemo habet [no one gives what he does not have]; and, in order to sanctify others, it is necessary not to neglect any of the ways proposed for the sanctification of our own selves.

    ...

    The Pope is the guardian of dogma and of morals; he is the custodian of the principles that make families sound, nations great, souls holy; he is the counsellor of princes and of peoples; he is the head under whom no one feels tyrannized because he represents God Himself; he is the supreme father who unites in himself all that may exist that is loving, tender, divine.

    It seems incredible, and is even painful, that there be priests to whom this recommendation must be made, but we are regrettably in our age in this hard, unhappy, situation of having to tell priests: love the Pope!

    And how must the Pope be loved? Non verbo neque lingua, sed opere et veritate. [Not in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth - 1 Jn iii, 18] When one loves a person, one tries to adhere in everything to his thoughts, to fulfill his will, to perform his wishes. And if Our Lord Jesus Christ said of Himself, "si quis diligit me, sermonem meum servabit," [if any one love me, he will keep my word - Jn xiv, 23] therefore, in order to demonstrate our love for the Pope, it is necessary to obey him.

    Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey - that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.

    This is the cry of a heart filled with pain, that with deep sadness I express, not for your sake, dear brothers, but to deplore, with you, the conduct of so many priests, who not only allow themselves to debate and criticize the wishes of the Pope, but are not embarrassed to reach shameless and blatant disobedience, with so much scandal for the good and with so great damage to souls.

    Saint Pius X
    Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union
    • November 18, 1912
    Ahh, if only St Pius X’s successors would have heeded your/his advice....

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #126 on: January 09, 2019, 01:19:59 PM »
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  • The fact that St. Pius X’s teachings does not/cannot apply to Paul VI, JP2, Benedict XVI, and Francis is a red flag.  St. Pius X did not qualify his teaching, meaning it applies to all Popes.  The fact that it cannot apply to these so called Popes, should show us that we need to take a closer look at whether they were/are Popes at all.  

    If we cannot dissent to Frankie in Rome, then logically we lose our Faith.  There is only one way out of this logical trap, to take out the of the syllogism that Frank is Pope, then it makes sense again and St. Pius X’s teaching remains perfectly intact and applicable.

    Would anyone dare to say that St. Pope Pius X taught error to the Church on this point?

    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #127 on: January 14, 2019, 11:42:39 AM »
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  • Another interesting thing is that the church's domain - SSPXFlorida.com is hosted by GoDaddy.Com. Go Daddy was known years ago for their sexually suggestive ads. Certainly there aren't Catholic options for hosting?


    Anonymous

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    Re: Dialogue Mass/leading the choir in singing
    « Reply #128 on: January 14, 2019, 05:27:46 PM »
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  • Did the clown conductor lead the laity again yesterday, Sunday January 13, 2019? 

     

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