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Offline rum

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Re: Curse of Ham
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2018, 01:01:53 AM »
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  • After analyzing the issue on the thread linked to above I came to this conclusion:

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    What I do know is that a Catholic can maintain that the Curse of Ham applies to blacks and not be excommunicated, and can even be made a Doctor of the Church, a Doctor of Divinity and a Pope! So it seems it's one of those subjects on which the Church allows different interpretations.
    Michael Hoffman maintains that it was only after the Reformation that this curse was accepted as applying to blacks, and that it is due to Churchman becoming Judaized. But how to explain the St. Ephraim quote? Has the quote been falsely attributed to him? Hoffman has told me he's not familiar with the quote.

    That said, regardless of whether or not the curse of ham applies to blacks they are viewed by just about everybody as the most primitive race. I read some people arguing that the only reason Westerners view blacks as primitive is because of this "false teaching." That's absurd. Non-Christians who are non-white from all over the world view blacks as the most primitive race. They don't need to believe in the curse of Ham applying to blacks to make such an observation. No one does.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Curse of Ham
    « Reply #16 on: November 14, 2018, 03:05:22 AM »
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  • Yes, but isn't it possible that the blacks and Madianites (Arabs) in Habacuc 3:7 are descended from Chanaan? Considering the events in Book of Habacuc 3 came long after the Book of Genesis 9, they could still be biologically descended from Chaanan and, variably, took on his phenotype (physical and mental disposition) that might have been altered from the curse and passed down through the generations.

    I am not a Bible scholar or historian. So I can't answer you, only search the answer myself. I came up with this short article on the Midians, but it doesn't say whether or not they are descended from Chanaan.
    .
    Question: "Who were the Midianites?"

    Answer:
    Abraham had more sons than just Isaac (by Sarah) and Ishmael (by Hagar). He also had six sons by Keturah, his wife after the death of Sarah: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah (Genesis 25:2). The Midianites were the descendants of Midian and therefore children of Abraham. They settled in “the land of the east” (Genesis 25:6). Most scholars believe the land of Midian was officially on both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba, although the Midianites showed nomadic tendencies later in their history (see Habakkuk 3:7, ESV).


    When Moses fled the wrath of Pharaoh, he traveled to Midian (Exodus 2:15). There, Moses met and married his wife, Zipporah, and served his father-in-law, Jethro, as a shepherd for forty years. The fact that Jethro was “a priest of Midian” (Exodus 2:16) indicates that the Midianites, at least during Moses’ time, still retained the knowledge of the God of their father Abraham (cf. Jethro’s words and actions in Exodus 18). At the end of Moses’ time in Midian, God appeared to Moses—still in Midian—and commissioned him to lead the Israelites out of slavery (Exodus 3—4).

    As the children of Israel traveled through the wilderness, they employed the services of a guide familiar with the desert—Moses’ Midianite brother-in-law, Hobab (Numbers 10:29). However, the relations between the Israelites and the Midianites began to sour when the Midianites joined forces with the Moabites in order to hire Balaam to curse Israel (Numbers 22). Later, when Israel fell into idolatry and sexual sin with the Moabite women (Numbers 25), we find that a prominent Midianite woman was also involved (Numbers 25:6). The Lord then told Moses to wage war against the Midianites: “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them. They treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the Peor incident involving their sister Kozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader” (Numbers 25:17–19). The Israelites did eventually attack the Midianites, meting out divine retribution against their enemies (Numbers 31). Five kings of the Midianites were killed, as was Balaam (Numbers 31:8). This battle was one of the last things Moses accomplished as leader of the Israelites.

    During the time of the judges, “the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples invaded the country” and plundered the land (Judges 6:3). For seven years, “Midian so impoverished the Israelites that they cried out to the Lord for help” (verse 6). God answered their cries and raised up Gideon as a deliverer. With just 300 men, Gideon defeated the armies of the Midianites, although the foe was “thick as locusts. Their camels could no more be counted than the sand on the seashore” (Judges 7:12). Of course, God was involved, and He was the One who granted the victory over the Midianites (verse 22).

    Later references to the Midianites include allusions to God’s victory over them (Psalm 83:9; Isaiah 10:26). And, in a prophecy of Israel’s future glory in the Messianic kingdom, Isaiah writes, “Herds of camels will cover your land, / young camels of Midian and Ephah. / And all from Sheba will come, / bearing gold and incense / and proclaiming the praise of the Lord” (Isaiah 60:6).
    https://www.gotquestions.org/Midianites.html

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    Arabs who aren't baptized aren't much more civilized than blacks who aren't baptized, and they're a very temperamental & violent people not unlike blacks. Arab Muslims even kill their own daughters who find disfavor from their fathers. It's an epidemic.
    All nations tend to savagery without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, including the white. Civilised people can become savages in one or two generations if they forget their God, just as the Israelites did.





    Offline BTNYC

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    Re: Curse of Ham
    « Reply #17 on: November 14, 2018, 08:56:23 AM »
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  • All nations tend to savagery without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, including the white. Civilised people can become savages in one or two generations if they forget their God, just as the Israelites did.
    Grace builds upon nature, but does not transform it. God did not create the races with equal physical strength, equal intellect, equal capacity for developing advanced civilizations, etc.

    The noble European pagans (Greeks, Romans) were civilized, even before receiving the Gospels. It was Providence that chose that culture on which to build Christendom, rather than a Semitic or Sub-Saharan African culture. Even the relatively savage Celts and Germanic tribes of Europe were nowhere near the depths of savagery that Sub-Saharan Africans, or say, aboriginal Australians were right up until modern times.

    Look at Catholic Haiti, vacillating between barely functional and out-and-out savagery for the past two centuries since they cast off their French masters.

    Grace builds upon nature. But nature is what it is.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Curse of Ham
    « Reply #18 on: November 14, 2018, 11:16:48 AM »
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    I highlighted a religious sister, a priest, a bishop, a pope, and a mystic.
      

    I think the most authoritative of those is by far Pius IX's Prayer for the Conversion of the descendants of Cham in Central Africa, in which there is a clear acknowledgement that the curse does in fact, exist.  The Sovereign Pontiff even attached an indulgence to it of three hundred years.


    Let us pray for the most wretched Ethiopians in Central Africa, that Almighty God may at length move the curse of Cham from their hearts, and grant them the blessing to be found only in Jesus Christ, our God and Lord.

    Lord Jesus Christ, the only Saviour of the entire human race, who ready rulest from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the each, open propitiously thy most sacred heart also to the most wretched souls of Central Asia, who are still seated in the darkness and the shadow of death, that, through the intercession of the most pious Virgin Mary, thy immaculate mother, and of her most glorious spouse, S. Joseph, the Ethiopians, having abandoned their idols, may prostrate themselves before thee, and be joined to thy holy Church. Who livest, etc.


    Offline cassini

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    Re: Curse of Ham
    « Reply #19 on: November 30, 2018, 10:53:36 PM »
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  • ‘Ninus is said to have been the son of Belus or Bel [Bal], and Bel is said to have been the founder of Babylon… If Ninus was Nimrod, then who was the historical Bel? He must have been Cush; for “Cush begat Nimrod” (Gen. X.), and Cush is generally represented as having been the ringleader in the great apostasy. But again, Cush, as the son of Ham, was Her-mes or Mercury; for Hermes is just an Egyptian synonym for the “son of Ham.” Now, Hermes was the great original prophet of idolatry; for he was recognised by the pagans as the author of their religious rites, and the interpreter of the gods… Mercury then, or Hermes, or Cush, “the son of Ham,” was the “DIVIDER of the speeches of men.” He, it would seem, had been the ringleader in the scheme for building the great city and tower of Babel; and, as the well-known title of Hermes, -“the interpreter of the gods,” would indicate, had encouraged them, in the name of God, to proceed in their presumptuous enterprise, and so had caused the language of men to be divided, and themselves to be scattered abroad on the face of the Earth… That Cush was known to pagan antiquity under the very character of Bel “The Confounder,” a statement of Ovid very clearly proves. The statement to which I refer is that in which Janus “the god of gods,” from whom all the other gods had their origin, is made to say of himself “the ancients…called me Chaos.” Now, first this decisively shows that Chaos was known not merely as a state of confusion, but also as the “god of Confusion.” But secondly, who that is at all acquainted with the laws of Chaldaic pronunciation, does not know that Chaos is just one of the established names of Chūs or Cush? Rev. Alex Hislop: The Two Babylons, Loizeau Bros, Roma, 1862. pp. 25-27


    Anonymous

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    Re: Curse of Ham
    « Reply #20 on: December 01, 2018, 06:58:39 PM »
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  • I've often thought that Australoids branched out of Africa, and thus are from Ham's line. 

    Australoids are found on those Sentinel Islands, the aborigines of Australia, and many of the Oceanic islands in the Pacific, including the Philippines.

    Anonymous

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    Re: Curse of Ham
    « Reply #21 on: December 07, 2018, 03:18:29 PM »
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  • I think the most authoritative of those is by far Pius IX's Prayer for the Conversion of the descendants of Cham in Central Africa, in which there is a clear acknowledgement that the curse does in fact, exist.  The Sovereign Pontiff even attached an indulgence to it of three hundred years.


    Let us pray for the most wretched Ethiopians in Central Africa, that Almighty God may at length move the curse of Cham from their hearts, and grant them the blessing to be found only in Jesus Christ, our God and Lord.

    Lord Jesus Christ, the only Saviour of the entire human race, who ready rulest from sea to sea, and from the river to the ends of the each, open propitiously thy most sacred heart also to the most wretched souls of Central Asia, who are still seated in the darkness and the shadow of death, that, through the intercession of the most pious Virgin Mary, thy immaculate mother, and of her most glorious spouse, S. Joseph, the Ethiopians, having abandoned their idols, may prostrate themselves before thee, and be joined to thy holy Church. Who livest, etc.
    That's a nice prayer.  I get sick of the assertion that this is somehow hateful.  It is compassionate!  

    Anonymous

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    Re: Curse of Ham
    « Reply #22 on: December 07, 2018, 03:24:32 PM »
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  • Yes, but isn't it possible that the blacks and Madianites (Arabs) in Habacuc 3:7 are descended from Chanaan? Considering the events in Book of Habacuc 3 came long after the Book of Genesis 9, they could still be biologically descended from Chaanan and, variably, took on his phenotype (physical and mental disposition) that might have been altered from the curse and passed down through the generations.

    Arabs who aren't baptized aren't much more civilized than blacks who aren't baptized, and they're a very temperamental & violent people not unlike blacks. Arab Muslims even kill their own daughters who find disfavor from their fathers. It's an epidemic.

    It was the British empire that civilized the Arabs, and it was oil that enriched them. It wasn't by their own genius. If not for the Brits and oil reserves throughout the ME, they'd still be riding around on camels warring with other rival tribes ... butchering, raping and stealing, not unlike the Native Siberians (ostensibly called "Americans") did to each other long before Europeans colonized the Americas.

    The black disposition needs no explanation. Again, look at Rwanda 1994 or Haiti since they killed and kicked out the civilized French, and reverted back to their African demonic spirituality of voodoo.
    It's compassion and it required sacrifice!  Rudyard Kipling wrote about it in the poem "The White Man's Burden."  
    The White Man's Burden

    (The United States and the Philippine Islands)
    Kipling, Rudyard (1865 - 1936)
    Original Text: 
    Rudyard Kipling's Verse: Definitive Edition (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1940): 323-24.
    1Take up the White Man's burden--
    2   Send forth the best ye breed--
    3Go bind your sons to exile
    4   To serve your captives' need;
    5To wait in heavy harness
    6   On fluttered folk and wild--
    7Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
    8   Half devil and half child.
    9Take up the White Man's burden--
    10   In patience to abide,
    11To veil the threat of terror
    12   And check the show of pride;
    13By open speech and simple,
    14   An hundred times made plain,
    15To seek another's profit,
    16   And work another's gain.
    17Take up the White Man's burden--
    18   The savage wars of peace--
    19Fill full the mouth of Famine
    20   And bid the sickness cease;
    21And when your goal is nearest
    22   The end for others sought,
    23Watch Sloth and heathen Folly
    24   Bring all your hope to nought.
    25Take up the White Man's burden--
    26   No tawdry rule of kings,
    27But toil of serf and sweeper--
    28   The tale of common things.
    29The ports ye shall not enter,
    30   The roads ye shall not tread,
    31Go make them with your living,
    32   And mark them with your dead!
    33Take up the White Man's burden--
    34   And reap his old reward:
    35The blame of those ye better,
    36   The hate of those ye guard--
    37The cry of hosts ye humour
    38   (Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
    39"Why brought ye us from bondage,
    40   "Our loved Egyptian night?"
    41Take up the White Man's burden--
    42   Ye dare not stoop to less--
    43Nor call too loud on Freedom
    44   To cloak your weariness;
    45By all ye cry or whisper,
    46   By all ye leave or do,
    47The silent, sullen peoples
    48   Shall weigh your Gods and you.
    49Take up the White Man's burden--
    50   Have done with childish days--
    51The lightly proffered laurel,
    52   The easy, ungrudged praise.
    53Comes now, to search your manhood
    54   Through all the thankless years,
    55Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,
    56   The judgment of your peers!


    Anonymous

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    Re: Curse of Ham
    « Reply #23 on: December 07, 2018, 03:35:38 PM »
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  • But like any hierarchy there are people who resist it for selfish reasons and would plunge the world into chaos, to satisfy their own inordinately self-centered desires.  These rebels demonstrate a lack of compassion for others and a selfishness towards God.  Usually, I think, they are motivated by an inordinate desire for power or as E.MichaelJones chose for the title of one of his books, Libido Domandi or the lust to dominate others.  One person is motivated by compassion, like the husband trying to play the God given role of priest/guide and protector to his family.  While the other, the rebellious wife for example, is motivated by a disordered desire for power and struggles to usurp her husbands God given role.  However, our culture constantly wants to reverse that and charge the orderly with lust for power and the rebellious with righteousness!  That's why I try to create my own micro-culture and withdraw from the culture at large.  It's just so backward!  

     

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