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Author Topic: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?  (Read 1703 times)

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Änσnymσus

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  • If one were to apply for citizenship in a Commonwealth country where they are asked to "swear allegiance to HM the King/Queen/etc", could one do so since they are Protestant monarchs? Or are we unable to as Catholics? 4am thoughts.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #1 on: May 01, 2023, 06:08:42 AM »
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  • Good question. Originally the below snip applied, but I don't see how it can possible apply these days. Can you swear allegiance only as long as you're excluding everything anti-Catholic?

    5:37 "...it is part of the Christian tradition that as the Roman Empire was dismantled, that throughout Europe the Christian Monarchies arose, and all of those Christian Kings recognized that they were to take Christ as their model.

    They were to think of themselves as the vicegerents of Christ, just as the pope was the vicar of Christ upon the earth. And the people were taught they had two sovereigns on the earth, but both of them did represent Christ. The pope represented Christ in the spiritual realm, and the king represented Christ in matter temporal, and the people were to obey both as a religious duty..." - Fr. Wathen

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #2 on: May 01, 2023, 06:32:36 AM »
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  • When Queen Elizabeth apostatized Pope Leo X freed all her subjects from any oaths of loyalty to the crown.

    Offline angelusmaria

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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #3 on: May 01, 2023, 06:34:03 AM »
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  • I don't know how the oath is worded, but maybe a mental reservation could allow for it:  being truly loyal to them and their salvation and souls by not affirming them in evil and opposing them when they say/do things that put their souls in jeopardy.
    please pray for me

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #4 on: May 01, 2023, 07:22:27 AM »
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  • Leo did but the Catholics continued to take the oath.🤷


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #5 on: May 01, 2023, 07:26:44 AM »
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  • This is a good question when one considers all the martyrs of the past who would never take such an oath.  
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #6 on: May 01, 2023, 07:50:43 AM »
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  • Depends entirely on what the oath said. St. Thomas More would have sworn allegiance to Henry VIII if he could have without acknowledging Henry's claim to be head of the English Church. 
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #7 on: May 02, 2023, 01:58:15 PM »
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  • Depends entirely on what the oath said. St. Thomas More would have sworn allegiance to Henry VIII if he could have without acknowledging Henry's claim to be head of the English Church.
    All these "Test Oaths" as they were called have been long repealed. The regular oath is this:



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    I, (full name), do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charleshis heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.


    For citizenship:


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    I... swear by Almighty God that, on becoming a British citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles the Third, His Heirs and Successors according to law.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #8 on: May 02, 2023, 02:38:50 PM »
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  • I don't see anything objectionable to that at all. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #9 on: May 02, 2023, 03:39:27 PM »
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  • I don't see anything objectionable to that at all.
    One could object that Charles is no king, but a usurper, just as Elizabeth was a "pretended Queen of England, and the servant of crime" according to Pope St. Pius V in Regnans in Excelsis.

    Are Catholics obliged to consider heretics as illegitimate kings? Can a Catholic swear faithful allegiance to a heretic?

    I wouldn't be surprised if the historical fact is that Catholics did swear allegiance to heretics.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #10 on: May 02, 2023, 03:46:38 PM »
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  • One could object that Charles is no king, but a usurper, just as Elizabeth was a "pretended Queen of England, and the servant of crime" according to Pope St. Pius V in Regnans in Excelsis.
    .
    If one held that position one would not be inquiring if the oath could be taken in the first place. But yes, of course, if one did not in fact recognize Charles as King one could not take the oath. 

    Are Catholics obliged to consider heretics as illegitimate kings? Can a Catholic swear faithful allegiance to a heretic?

    I wouldn't be surprised if the historical fact is that Catholics did swear allegiance to heretics.
    .
    Non-Catholics are perfectly capable of holding legitimate political office. Render unto Caesar. Caesar was an infidel. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #11 on: May 02, 2023, 03:53:37 PM »
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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #12 on: May 02, 2023, 03:56:28 PM »
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  • One may wonder to what level of the Lodge Charles could initiate someone? Loyalty to King and Parliament anyway. God save the Lodge and the secrets ... the handshakes ...

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #13 on: May 02, 2023, 05:06:12 PM »
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  • Pope St. Pius V, Regnans in Excelsis:
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    [We declare Elizabeth] to be deprived of her pretended title to the aforesaid crown and of all lordship, dignity and privilege whatsoever.

    And also (declare) the nobles, subjects and people of the said realm and all others who have in any way sworn oaths to her, to be forever absolved from such an oath and from any duty arising from lordship. fealty and obedience; and we do, by authority of these presents , so absolve them and so deprive the same Elizabeth of her pretended title to the crown and all other the above said matters. We charge and command all and singular the nobles, subjects, peoples and others afore said that they do not dare obey her orders, mandates and laws. Those who shall act to the contrary we include in the like sentence of excommunication.

    St. Pius V excommunicated those who would consider her to be the Queen.  Therefore the line of British "royalty" is copmletely illegitimate.  Given the reasons for his commands related to Elizabeth, one would gather that St. Pius V would also disapprove of any who would pretend that the successors of Elizabeth were legitimate also.  If she ceased to be queen, then here successors are not legitimate royalty either.  St. Pius V excommunicated anyone who would treat her as having any authority (i.e. by obeying her orders).

    Ironically, Elizabeth was no queen even before this, but had usurped the line, which now resides in the son of a truck driver from Australia.

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    Re: Could Catholics "swear allegiance" to the British monarchy?
    « Reply #14 on: May 02, 2023, 05:57:09 PM »
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  • Charles's legitimacy doesn't depend on Elizabeth's.