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Author Topic: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction  (Read 13313 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
« Reply #105 on: April 21, 2025, 03:58:50 PM »
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  • From everything I read, despite minor spats between specific individuals now and then, most of the Sede groups of any relevance do have clergy that constantly mingle and cooperate with one another, except, as you pointed out, the SSPV who seem the most insular and absurd on their condemnations of others.

    Right, and there has to be some ulterior motive there, since the "reasons" they adduce for their attitude are just utter nonsense.  With the CMRI, for instance, their allegation that they're Old Cathlic schismatics is nonsense.  There's nothing in Canon Law or in any Traditional theology to indicate that you become an Old Catholic by being ordained by one.  I could go right now to an Orthodox bishop, get ordained, and I'd be SUSPENDED ... but it's easy to argue that even suspension is lifted given the necessity created by this crisis, but I would not be considered a schismatic for getting that ordination.  Of course SSPV also ignore the CMRI claim that they asked Brown to recant his errors, and that he did so, before ordaining / consecrating Schuckhardt.  Nor will any of them tell you that Brown was not an Old Catholic but an Old Roman Catholic.  Old Roman Catholics split from the Old Catholics after the latter rejected papal infallibility and adhere to various other heresies, and renounced those heresies.  Theirs was more of a contention that there had been an old agreement in place with Rome to allow the Bishop of Utrecht to have a certain amount of (practical) autonomy from Rome.

    After that, then, the argument that the +Thuc line are doubtful also has zero basis in Canon Law or in fact.  But, let's say there was some validity to that arguement.

    Uhm, well, since you claim to have valid orders, FIX IT.  They could easily have just gone and conditionally consecrated one another and then have each bishop conditionally ordain/consecrate the others in their group.  Problem solved.  If I for one second thought I had valid orders but some other reasonably-legitimate Catholic group did not, I'd immediately offer to remedy the situation.  Even if the other group did not want to admit any doubt, you could make a case for reasons of peace among the faithful and appeasing their consciences in the absence of a final arbiter of validity.  To me, the thought that so many lay Catholics might be receiving invalid Sacraments and possibly losing their souls ... it's an unspeakable tragedy, and not something to almost gloat about and enjoy having as a weapon to attack the other group(s) with.  So the fact that they behave this way makes me question whether 1) they actually have the faith or 2) they really believe the stuff they're spewing.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #106 on: April 21, 2025, 04:11:14 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, hgodwinson, I'm not trying to disrespectful.  My apologies if my words betray me.

    I'll ask again since my question hasn't been answered.  What Sede group is the true Catholic Church?  What is the name of the Pope?  Prior to Vatican 2, I don't believe the papacy was empty for more than a few years (that I could find out).  That's why I ask, surely by now there's a valid Pope in the church our Blessed Lord established.  He tasked Peter to feed His sheep afterall!

    No "sede" group and no "R&R" group ARE, as group, THE true Catholic Church, but they may all be Catholic and IN the Catholic Church.  What R&R group is THE true Catholic Church?  During the Great Western Schism, which group was THE true Catholic Church?  Answer is that neither was THE Church, but that both were PART OF the Church, even if they were divided materially regarding the consideration of fact, i.e. who had been legitimately elected pope.

    Which sheep is (well, was) Bergoglio feeding, the heretics and sodomites?  He was absolutely wrecking the faith.  That's precisely the SV argument, that since Our Lord promised a papcy to maintain unity in faith and government, the papacy violates Our Lord's promises if it fails to do so.  Meanwhile, there's nothing inherently contrary to Our Lord's promises against a prolonged vacancy of the Holy See, especially as part of the End Times Great Apostasy that has been predicted by so many Church Fathers, saints, and mystics.

    So if you think the current vacancy is "too long," please do tell us exactly how long it can be.  3 years?  5 years?  10 years? 15 years?  20 years, 9 months, 15 days, 3 hours, 52 minutes, and 28 seconds?  This demonstrates the nonsensical nature of an arbitrary length of time.

    You could take a minute to read this article ...
    https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/fr-edmund-james-oreilly-s-j-on-the-idea-of-a-long-term-vacancy-of-the-holy-see/

    Pre-Vatican-II Theologian Fr. Edmund O'Reilly, S.J., writing about the Great Western Schism, which went on for about 40 years ...
    Quote
    There was, I say, at every given time a Pope, really invested with the dignity of Vicar of Christ and Head of the Church, whatever opinions might exist among many as to his genuineness; not that an interregnum covering the whole period would have been impossible or inconsistent with the promises of Christ, for this is by no means manifest, but that, as a matter of fact, there was not such an interregnum.

    Meanwhile, every pre-Vatican-II theologian ever, in the history of the Church, held that the Papal Magisterim cannot corrupt the faith or the Public Worship of the Church where it endangers souls.  If you posit that the Papacy can wreck the Church so badly that Catholics are permitted and even required in conscience to break communion with and submission to the Vicar of Christ, then you've wrecked your own faith annd no longer have the Catholic faith ... since that is in fact the accusation of every herestical and schismatic group ever in the history of the Church in rejecting the Church, from the Orthodox to the Protestants, to the Old Catholics.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #107 on: April 21, 2025, 04:15:48 PM »
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  • No "sede" group and no "R&R" group ARE, as group, THE true Catholic Church, but they may all be Catholic and IN the Catholic Church.  
    Careful Laddie boy, what about those pesky material heretics eh? 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #108 on: April 21, 2025, 04:16:02 PM »
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  • Of course, the argument against unity coming from an R&R is rich, since R&R believe that a group can be split off not from just any other group, but from the Vicar of Christ Himself and still somehow be united with them, even though R&R cannot in good conscience go to the Pope's Mass or accept his Magisterium.  But put a picture of some random guy in a white cassock on the wall in your vestibule, and that's all it takes to be "one with the Church", right?  Just to give "attention to" the man.

    :facepalm:

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #109 on: April 21, 2025, 04:19:29 PM »
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  • During the Great Western Schism, which group was THE true Catholic Church?  Answer is that neither was THE Church, but that both were PART OF the Church, even if they were divided materially regarding the consideration of fact, i.e. who had been legitimately elected pope.
    This is a bad comparison, none of those then were divided on doctrine as the various sects are now. Even St. Vincent innocently erred for a time about who was the legitimate pope, but he proved his extraordinary mission with great miracles and was welcomed wherever he went. That material schism is nothing compared to what we are dealing with now - heresy, apostasy.


    Offline hgodwinson

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #110 on: April 21, 2025, 04:31:13 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, hgodwinson, I'm not trying to disrespectful.  My apologies if my words betray me.

    I'll ask again since my question hasn't been answered.  What Sede group is the true Catholic Church?  What is the name of the Pope?  Prior to Vatican 2, I don't believe the papacy was empty for more than a few years (that I could find out).  That's why I ask, surely by now there's a valid Pope in the church our Blessed Lord established.  He tasked Peter to feed His sheep afterall!
    No Sedevacantist group in and of itself is the Catholic Church. It is my belief however that each (mainstream) group is Catholic, and therefore that they are each a part of the whole (body). Just speaking for myself, I see the Catholic church today as those who hold to all the of the dogmas of the Catholic Church (or what we can all agree was the Catholic church at the death of Pope Pius xii). Most important to the crisis are the dogmas surrounding salvation outside the church (eens) and around the papacy. I believe Sedevacantism to be the proper response to who what is going on in Rome currently but not a dogma that would make someone Catholic or not.

    Also, there was a period in history where there was a 3 year Sedevacante (1268-1271). This everyone accepts.

    Also you were not being disrespectful, just zealous for what to you think is the truth, which is good.

    Offline hgodwinson

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #111 on: April 21, 2025, 04:45:06 PM »
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  • This is a bad comparison, none of those then were divided on doctrine as the various sects are now. Even St. Vincent innocently erred for a time about who was the legitimate pope, but he proved his extraordinary mission with great miracles and was welcomed wherever he went. That material schism is nothing compared to what we are dealing with now - heresy, apostasy.
    Sedevacantist groups really are not too divided on doctrine. The biggest doctrinal divide the Cassiciacuм thesis but it is more a difference in how they view the current papal crisis. Bishop Sanborn of the Roman Catholic institute has a lot of online content but, to simplify the thesis, it is the belief that since John XXIII and his successors were never declared heretics by the church, their elections were valid, but that since they intent to - through Vatican ii - impose a false religion upon the Catholic church, that they never fully accepted papacy and the promise of maintaining the faith that comes with that. 
    As you may see it said, they believe they are popes materially, but not formally. 
    This is held by the IMBC and bishop Sanborn and his clergy. Other sv groups hold that the papacy is totally vacant. 
    If you get to their core, most sede groups teach the exact same things. For instance, the CMRI and the SSPV, the two ends of the sede spectrum one could say, hold virtually the exact same views, the disagreement (which puts them on no speaking terms) is over wether thuc clergy are valid. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #112 on: April 22, 2025, 06:47:30 AM »
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  • Sedevacantist groups really are not too divided on doctrine. The biggest doctrinal divide the Cassiciacuм thesis ...

    Correct.  And even BEFORE this Crisis, there were theological camps on various issues, e.g. the "5 Opinions" or Thomists vs. Molinists, etc.  There always have been and always will be theological disagreements WITHIN the Church.  There are always have been and always will be different groups and organizations WITHIN the Church, e.g. Dominicans, Franciscans, different Dioceses, etc.  Only difference is that none of the Traditional groups, whether R&R or SV (this is not unique ot SV) are subject to a Pope (due either to a vacancy, per the SVs, or to a major malfunction, per R&R, with the Popes).