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Author Topic: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction  (Read 13284 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
« Reply #90 on: March 31, 2025, 01:41:41 PM »
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  • You can argue all you want. It is impossible for Roncalli through Bergoglio to have been popes, it is either sedevacantism or Catholicism is false, sede bishops have jurisdiction as I have proven
    By this I mean it is either sedevacantism is true or Catholicism is false. 

    and those who deny sedevacante are heretics either being modernists or gallicans 

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #91 on: March 31, 2025, 01:44:30 PM »
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  • By this I mean it is either sedevacantism is true or Catholicism is false.

    and those who deny sedevacante are heretics either being modernists or gallicans
    Sedevacantism is new, not true, Catholicism is true. 


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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #92 on: March 31, 2025, 11:38:19 PM »
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  • Sedevacantism is new, not true, Catholicism is true.
    First priest to go sede was under roncalli . Learn Catholic history 

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #93 on: March 31, 2025, 11:39:36 PM »
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  • Sedevacantism is Catholicism .  

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #94 on: April 01, 2025, 06:12:28 AM »
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  • First priest to go sede was under roncalli . Learn Catholic history
    Catholic history shows sedevacantism was started by a man some odd 60 years ago and it is not found in tradition, this makes it new, not true, this means it is certainly not Catholicism. Learn Catholic tradition.
     


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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #95 on: April 01, 2025, 07:15:16 AM »
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  • Catholic history shows sedevacantism was started by a man some odd 60 years ago and it is not found in tradition, this makes it new, not true, this means it is certainly not Catholicism. Learn Catholic tradition.

    I think you mean The Great Apostasy started 60 odd years ago and is not found in tradition?  

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #96 on: April 21, 2025, 03:17:36 PM »
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  • Jumping into this thread...

    The biggest flaw with Sedevacantism (SVism) is the same as with Orthodoxy & Protestantism.  There isn't a single group!  Each SV group whole-heartedly believes it is true (i.e. the Remnant) and that every other SV group is heretical and going to hell (like the Vatican 2 conciliar church they love to hate on).  Sad, but true.  Prayers for unity as our Blessed Lord desires!

    Offline hgodwinson

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #97 on: April 21, 2025, 03:30:33 PM »
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  •  Each SV group whole-heartedly believes it is true (i.e. the Remnant) and that every other SV group is heretical and going to hell (like the Vatican 2 conciliar church they love to hate on). 
    This is untrue. The bishops of some Sedevacantist groups consecrated the bishops of others. Bishop Dolan of the sgg group was consecrated by Bishop Pivarunas of the CMRI and Bishop Davila of the sst was consecrated by these two. The clergy of the sgg work with the clergy of bishop Sanborn, and Bishop Sanborn's clergy work with the IMBC. The only truly insulated Sedevacantist group would be the SSPV.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #98 on: April 21, 2025, 03:37:30 PM »
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  • So there's no essential unity because the only Catholics principle of unity is the papacy.  That's no limited to SV, but also afflicts R&R.

    In addition, there are some groups that work together just fine but are simply operationally distinct.

    Where there's a problem is where some groups incorrectly elevate certain conclusions and propositions to being de fide when they're not quite at that level (though one or two are) ... but, then, that was a problem at times before in Church history too, such as when the Thomists and Molinists accused one another of heresy ... until the Holy See intervened and told them to knock it off.  At other times, some groups refused to give in, but when there was a split, you always knew that the group which split off from the pope was the false one and was in schism.

    Whether you believe the the See is vacant or simply crippled somehow (as R&R do), without that functioning Christ-established principle of unity, there can be no real unity, and if there is, it's either due to cult of personality of something weird like the Palmar de Toya group (and even they have groups that split off from time to time).

    Bishop Williamson explained this shortly after +Lefebvre died and predicted SSPX would fragment, since the Archbishop had personally provided the closest thing to some principle of unity.

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #99 on: April 21, 2025, 03:39:38 PM »
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  • hgodwinson, sadly, I think you backed up my point. CMRI, IMBC, SSG, SSPV, etc.

    What SV group is the true Catholic Church that Christ founded?  Like the rest of the world, I didn't get a memo, so could you share the name of the Pope in this SV group that we should turn our attention to?

    Offline hgodwinson

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #100 on: April 21, 2025, 03:41:18 PM »
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  • hgodwinson, sadly, I think you backed up my point. CMRI, IMBC, SSG, SSPV, etc.

    What SV group is the true Catholic Church that Christ founded?  Like the rest of the world, I didn't get a memo, so could you share the name of the Pope in this SV group that we should turn our attention to?
    As the name suggests, no Sedevacantist group has a "pope". Hope that helps.


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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #101 on: April 21, 2025, 03:44:21 PM »
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  • This is untrue. The bishops of some Sedevacantist groups consecrated the bishops of others. Bishop Dolan of the sgg group was consecrated by Bishop Pivarunas of the CMRI and Bishop Davila of the sst was consecrated by these two. The clergy of the sgg work with the clergy of bishop Sanborn, and Bishop Sanborn's clergy work with the IMBC. The only truly insulated Sedevacantist group would be the SSPV. 
    From everything I read, despite minor spats between specific individuals now and then, most of the Sede groups of any relevance do have clergy that constantly mingle and cooperate with one another, except, as you pointed out, the SSPV who seem the most insular and absurd on their condemnations of others. 

    Offline hgodwinson

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #102 on: April 21, 2025, 03:45:41 PM »
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  • My question to you anonymous, would be wether you think an uncatholic institution can provide the world with a sovereign catholic pontiff.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #103 on: April 21, 2025, 03:46:32 PM »
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  • hgodwinson, sadly, I think you backed up my point. CMRI, IMBC, SSG, SSPV, etc.

    What SV group is the true Catholic Church that Christ founded?  Like the rest of the world, I didn't get a memo, so could you share the name of the Pope in this SV group that we should turn our attention to?

    That's just plain nonsense.  Which Pope do R&R "turn [their] attention" to?  So you think it's enough to give your "attention" to a Pope, pay him some lip service, "yes, massa Pope", and put his picture up in the vestibule?  To which Pope are R&R subject, and with which Pope are R&R in communion?  Notice how actual Catholic theology says you must obey the Pope, being in subjection to him, and be in communion with him, but you've redefined the requirement here to just "turn ... attention to".  Well, SVs are paying attention to the V2 papal claimants to.  What does that even mean?

    When there's no Pope, fragmentation is to be expected.  Pope Leo XIII in his original long version of the prayer to St. Michael made reference to how the enemies of the Church were plotting to strike the shepherd so that the sheep might be scattered.  When the shepherd is struck, the sheep will be scattered.  And that only further proves that Our Lord instituted the papacy as the principle of unity in the Church and why it was necessary.

    From among the SSPX over the years, for every priest they've ordained, one leaves, with every other one going either NO / Ecclesia Dei and every other one Sedevacantist.  Now you have the Resistance splitting off from them.

    One might make some legitimate / serious arguments against the SV position, but this isn't one of them.

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    Re: Considering Sedevacantism and Jurisdiction
    « Reply #104 on: April 21, 2025, 03:54:04 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, hgodwinson, I'm not trying to disrespectful.  My apologies if my words betray me.

    I'll ask again since my question hasn't been answered.  What Sede group is the true Catholic Church?  What is the name of the Pope?  Prior to Vatican 2, I don't believe the papacy was empty for more than a few years (that I could find out).  That's why I ask, surely by now there's a valid Pope in the church our Blessed Lord established.  He tasked Peter to feed His sheep afterall!